"Top Movie Heroes and Villains" Topic

AFI has the top 25 like so:

1 Atticus Finch (in To Kill a Mockingbird) Dr. Hannibal Lecter (in The Silence of the Lambs)

2 Indiana Jones (in Raiders of the Lost Ark) Norman Bates (in Psycho)

3 James Bond (in Dr. No) Darth Vader (in Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back) (YES!)

4 Rick Blaine (in Casablanca)(Here's lookin' at you kid) The Wicked Witch of the West (in The Wizard of Oz)

5 Will Kane (in High Noon) Nurse Ratched (in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest)

6 Clarice Starling (in The Silence of the Lambs) Mister Potter (in It's a Wonderful Life)

7 Rocky Balboa (in Rocky) Alex Forrest (in Fatal Attraction)

8 Ellen Ripley (in Alien) Phyllis Dietrichson (in Double Indemnity)

9 George Bailey (in It's a Wonderful Life) Regan MacNeil (in The Exorcist)

10 T. E. Lawrence (in Lawrence of Arabia) The Queen (in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs)

11 Jefferson Smith (in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington) Michael Corleone (in The Godfather Part II)

12 Tom Joad (in The Grapes of Wrath) Alex DeLarge (in A Clockwork Orange)

13 Oskar Schindler (in Schindler's List) HAL 9000 (in 2001: A Space Odyssey)

14 Han Solo (in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope) The Alien (in Alien)

15 Norma Rae Webster (in Norma Rae) Amon Göth (in Schindler's List)

16 Shane (in Shane) Noah Cross (in Chinatown)

17 Harry Callahan (in Dirty Harry) Annie Wilkes (in Misery)

18 Robin Hood (in The Adventures of Robin Hood) The Shark (in Jaws)

19 Virgil Tibbs (in In the Heat of the Night) Captain Bligh (in Mutiny on the Bounty)

20 Butch & Sundance (in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid) Man (in Bambi) (WHAT!)

21 Mahatma Gandhi (in Gandhi) Mrs. John Iselin (in The Manchurian Candidate)

22 Spartacus (in Spartacus) The Terminator (in The Terminator)

23 Terry Malloy (in On the Waterfront) Eve Harrington (in All About Eve)

24 Thelma Dickinson & Louise Sawyer (in Thelma & Louise) Gordon Gekko (in Wall Street)

25 Lou Gehrig (in The Pride of the Yankees) Jack Torrance (in The Shining')

I'm suprised they came up with any list that didn't have the bulk of the characters/movies made in the last 20 years. Won't even go into what was left out and what the hell is that doing on the list (alright – the hunter in Bambi – give me a break). But of course silent movies always get skunked.

I'm stunned and shocke dthat Ernst Stavro Blofeld as played by Donald Pleasance was not mentioned . . .

I just saw the Dark Knight yesterday, for the first time. I have to admit that I think Heath Ledger's Joker is one of the best villains to come along in ages. Definitely better than some that made the list. Also, Gary Oldman's crooked cop in "The Professional" beats out about half the list, as well.

Queue the quibbling…

Regan MacNeil isn't the villain in The Exorcist, she's the victim. I know they mean the demon that possesses her, but they should have said so.

I don't consider Michael Corleone the villain of The Godfather, Part II.

I would have put Amon Göth and Mrs. John Iselin nearer the top.

Amon Goth is way too low…

Just a few notes regarding this idiotic list while I'm having my morning coffee. (-:

Obviously heroic self sacrifice is a recurring theme in the choice of "heroes" for this list, so what about these very well known heroes and films: Gary Cooper, as Beau Geste, who gave his life in the French Foreign Legion to protect is Aunt's secret in "Beau Geste", and Sam Jaffe, as Gunga Din, who gave his life to save a British unit in "Gunga Din". These heroes were very impressive to me as a youngster and easily beat many of the "heroes" on the list.

Why are Butch, Sundance, Thelma, and Louise "heroes"? I thought they were criminals. In the case of Butch and Sundance they were *likeable* crooks, but nevertheless still crooks. In the case of "Thelma and Louise" they weren't even likeable. LOL

Regan wasn't the villain, the demon was.

Why is Han Solo more of hero than Luke Skywalker?

A fish can't be a villain. Neither can a computer program.

"I don't consider Michael Corleone the villain of The Godfather, Part II."

That's interesting. Why not? After watching him have his brother murdered I thought that he was one of the most cold blooded and villainous SOBs that I've ever seen in a film.

No Cunningham from Rob Roy?

Tyler Durden should be on that list. He should be well up there and could be both hero and villain.

I don't see why a computer program couldn't be a villain. Certainly the computer in the matrix was a villain as is skynet in terminator.

Ok the challenge now is to make scenarios out to of the pairings above.

"I don't see why a computer program couldn't be a villain. Certainly the computer in the matrix was a villain as is skynet in terminator".

vil·lain [ víllən ] (plural vil·lains)

noun

Definition:

1. evil character: an evil character in a novel, movie, play, or other story, especially one who is the main enemy
of the hero

char·ac·ter [ kárrəktər ] (plural char·ac·ters)

noun

Definition:

4. somebody in book or movie: one of the people portrayed in a book, play, or movie None of the central characters is particularly likable.

some·bod·y [ súm bňddee, súmbədee ]

pron

Definition:

unnamed person: an unspecified or unidentified person

In short, a computer program cannot be a villain. Neither can a fish or a computer. A villain has to be a person.

>4. somebody in book or movie: one of the people portrayed in a book, play, or movie None of the central characters is particularly likable.<

"None of the central characters is particularly likable" was supposed to be an example, not part of the definition. My bad. Sorry about that. (-:

Thelma & Louise are definitely villains, as are the people that made that crappy film.

>Thelma & Louise are definitely villains,<

…and in this list they're heroes!! Ridiculous!

>as are the people that made that crappy film.<

LOL. Right. I've never seen a film where every single male, except for the cop that's chasing them, is portrayed as a major sc*mb*g. In fact, life is so horrible dealing with men that T&L would rather drive off a cliff and *die* than have to deal with them. I guess "sisterhood" can be powerful, but I didn't realize that it's also *insane*!

That's interesting. Why not? After watching him have his brother murdered I thought that he was one of the most cold blooded and villainous SOBs that I've ever seen in a film.

You will recall that his brother betrayed him to Hyman Roth, and nearly got Michael, Kay and their kids killed in the process.

>You will recall that his brother betrayed him to Hyman Roth, and nearly got Michael, Kay and their kids killed in the process.<

You still haven't said why you don't consider him a villain. Do you think that he was just a victim of circumstance trying to get along in life?

Saber6 good idea. Will have to think on that one.

In 'The Matrix' the computer was artificially intelligent.
Thus it could be considered a 'differently alive' person:^)
(Although the computer would probably consider that an insult. "What do you take me for? Human?!")

Hey 'The Shadow'! Were you looking in my window!! I watched both "Gunga Din" & "Beau Geste" last night (as well as "Lives of a Bengal Lancer").

In short, a computer program cannot be a villain. Neither can a fish or a computer. A villain has to be a person.

The gaping flaw in your reasoning is there is nothing that explicitly defines a 'person' as a homo sapiens sapiens.

per⋅son

–noun

4. Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.

If Skynet is self-conscious or rational (appears to be both) then it is a person, and hence can be a villain.

I'll happily concede the point on the fish though.

-Will

>The gaping flaw in your reasoning is there is nothing that explicitly defines a 'person' as a homo sapiens sapiens.

per⋅son

–noun

4. Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.

If Skynet is self-conscious or rational (appears to be both) then it is a person, and hence can be a villain.<

Wminsing

Actually, MSN's Encarta dictionary defines "person" *exactly* that way. Here are their definitions for both "person" and "Human Being":

per·son [ púrss'n ] (plural peo·ple [ pp'l ] or per·sons (formal))

noun

Definition:

1. human being: an individual human being.

hu·man be·ing (plural hu·man be·ings)

noun

Definition:

1. member of human species: a member of the species to which men and women belong. Latin name Homo sapiens.

>Hey 'The Shadow'! Were you looking in my window!! I watched both "Gunga Din" & "Beau Geste" last night (as well as "Lives of a Bengal Lancer").<

Wow! I hope you had plenty of popcorn! Add an "Our gang" comedy, two cartoons, a Movietone News short, a "Flash Gordon" serial chapter and two "coming attractions" and you'd have yourself a helluva matinee!

Seriously though, those were some of the best movies of the 1930's, weren't they? "Gunga Din" with the Thugee cult, mad high priest, rope bridge and pit of snakes *defines* "pulp" adventure.

You still haven't said why you don't consider him a villain. Do you think that he was just a victim of circumstance trying to get along in life?

He's the protagonist of the movie. One of the great things about the Godfather Trilogy is that it doesn't really deal with heroes and villains, but protagonists and antagonists. None of the characters in the films are terribly decent folk by the standards of most societies. However, within the moral construct of his world, Michael Corleone is far from villainous. Indeed, if he is the villain, then who is the hero of the story?

Actually, MSN's Encarta dictionary defines "person" *exactly* that way. Here are their definitions for both "person" and "Human Being":

Which is fine, if one accepts that Microsoft gets to have the final say in how words are defined in the English language. I for one don't buy this, and as I show, there are definitions of person that don't rely on some artificial notion of humanity.

-Will

The villain of Godfather II is obviusly Kay.
Sheesh, that's so obvious!

>Which is fine, if one accepts that Microsoft gets to have the final say in how words are defined in the English language.<

They don't have the final say. Here's the American Heritage dictionary definition for "Person":

1. A living Human Being, especially as distinguished from an animal or thing.

That's the only other dictionary that I have handy, but I think that we can go to *any* dictionary and they'll tell us the same thing. And that is that a person is a human being, not a "thing". How can we have a discussion without generally accepted definitions. If we define words any we want to we can't communicate intelligently.

"I for one don't buy this, and as I show, there are definitions of person that don't rely on some artificial notion of humanity".

It's not an "artificial notion" of humanity. It's the *definition* of humanity. Machines and computer programs can emulate some traits of humans, but they aren't human, and they can only do what they're controlled or programmed to do. A computer, for instance, can be programmed to accumulate wealth through automated investing ad infinitum, but it is not inherently greedy. It doesn't actually *want* wealth, it just accumulates it until you tell it to stop.

Mowgli from Kipling's The Jungle Stories and Melville's Moby Dick.

Larry McMurtry's "Sin Killer" for hero (The Berrybender Saga). McMurtry's Blue Duck (Lonesome Dove) for scarriest villain.

"Mowgli from Kipling's The Jungle Stories and Melville's Moby Dick".

Who is the hero and/or villain that you're referring to in "Moby Dick"?

"Larry McMurtry's "Sin Killer" for hero (The Berrybender Saga). McMurtry's Blue Duck (Lonesome Dove) for scarriest villain."

I like McMurtry's books, but we're discussing film villains and hero's and none of the novels in "The Berrybender Saga" have been filmed yet.

I agree that Blue Duck is as villainous as they come!

Did I miss something? Where is the insidious Doctor Fu Manchu? Someone with a brow like Shakespeare and a face like Satan should head up the list of villains!

>>
>Hey 'The Shadow'! Were you looking in my window!! I watched both "Gunga Din" & "Beau Geste" last night (as well as "Lives of a Bengal Lancer").<

Wow! I hope you had plenty of popcorn! Add an "Our gang" comedy, two cartoons, a Movietone News short, a "Flash Gordon" serial chapter and two "coming attractions" and you'd have yourself a helluva matinee!

Seriously though, those were some of the best movies of the 1930's, weren't they? "Gunga Din" with the Thugee cult, mad high priest, rope bridge and pit of snakes *defines* "pulp" adventure.<<

And don't forget "The Prisoner of Zenda" and "Captain Blood"

"And don't forget "The Prisoner of Zenda" and "Captain Blood"

Sticking with the great adventure films of the 1930's add "Tarzan and his Mate", one of the wildest flicks that I've ever seen. (-: