"Nazi Steath Bomber" Topic

Lockheed Martin has done a replica of a German WWII bomber that would have been invisible to Brit radar of the the period.

Here is the article, with some GREAT pics for inspiration:
link

Actually, that shot os if a fighter. There were plans for a similar plane to be a long range bomber. There was a good hour-long special on the project on the History Channel.

It was a very interesting show but played the "miracle weapon" card far too much. Even if it somehow got into production (in late 1944 or early 1945) who was going to fly it? Even if it shot down a lot of bombers, would that really help hold back the T-34s?

Still a very cool show!

That, and it was Northrop-Grumman that did the reconstruction.

Wyatt

It isn't stealth, all radar systems were inefficient a few dozen feet above water. The RAF's dropped nuke method relied on this fact for the V fleet bombers.

Agreed about the program. Lots of hype about it as a war changer with no evidence (as usual) and no mention of production (it appeared to have been a one-off built by hand. Constant comments about how they'd have a nuclear weapon for it to use in 1946 with no explanation of how that was going to happen.

That said, the aircraft appeared to be a less intrusive radar target than a standard German bomber and the tests seem to indicate that it would have been much harder to detect at extended ranges. That does not make it 'invisible', merely able to get closer to a radar before it is detected.

Dan

That, and it was Northrop-Grumman that did the reconstruction.

Mea culpa

I think I am going to use it as part of the background stuff for a modern "hidden" Nazi state in Antartica.

..or at least terrain for a scenario.

Another post on this TMP link

It was the Discovery Channel as well, i think. (aka the Hitler/Sharks channel)

The aircraft measured 20% less reflection to radar than a comperable aircraft due to blending and radar absorbing material (aka plywood – similar to the British Mosquito).

It had jet engines and thus was significantly faster. This plus the limited detection time reduced scramble time by a factor.

The question is – can these take out radar? If so then they had use but if not then they don't. They would have advantages in a dog fight in the same way the ME262 had advantages. Speed is life.

The Nuke in '46 is based upon re-evaluation on the German program. They were doing the science and engineering in the most half-assed way. However they were progressing. They had material and engineering advantages over the US but the Nazi-caused braindrain left them with a far smaller group of scientists to work out the details. Frankly I don't think they would have had any chance by '46. Think about all the things that would need to go right starting in 1944 for the program to even survive until 1946.

Anyway PM models do a nice cheap version suitable for 1/72nd (20mm ish) pulp /alternate WWII games

link

and the night fighter

link

Guiscard: In the Weird WWII World (coupled with the with the assistance from fertile imaginative miniature gaming minds) this Nazi plane, along with the scientific minds, materials, and production techniques of these Weird Times, would surely be a thorn in the enemy's tough hide. Put the Horten 229 into production and show the enemy scoffer's how Weird Rules and finicky dice rolls can put fun and excitement into your battles!

Apparently, it was a lot more maneuverable than the Me-262 in mock dogfights.

The engines were unreliable though, and when it lost one, the assymetric thrust generated killed the test pilot, while he was flying at low level – he was unable to regain control of the jet.

So, it appears that loss of an engine during combat, or just to failure (the Jumo 004's were a bit temperamental) could be a bit of a problem. No doubt, in time, procedures and modifications to the airframe to address that might have been developed, but they ran out of time.

The evidence given in the show about it being a better dogfighter wasn't convincing to me. Quotes from the designers are hardly objective! :-)

Depends entirely on your designer.

If Kelly Johnson (Mr. Skunkworks) said it's a better plane, that's not an opinion, that's a statement of FACT. Anything he said he'd do happened, even if he had to invent new science to make it work. I'm just not sure about how the Horten Bros measure up on that scale.

Similarly, if Northrup says it's stealthy, it's a fact. They took the bird out to their private RCS test-range, after all. Also, the use of carbon dust *does* reduce RCS. Carbon dust and Ferrite Balls are the two unclassified radar-absorbing materials.

The Ho229 would be about as much a fighter as the F117. It was originally designed as a light bomber (like the Mosquito), and the Luftwaffe insisted on adding a pair of 30mm Mk108 cannons.

It's a pretty nasty bird in DP9's LuftKrieg game, but flying wings have a maneuver limit of about 60 deg bank. Any farther and they fall out of the sky.

These seem like they would have been a very useful bomber if they had been available in large numbers in 1944. With it's speed and stealthiness, it would have been pretty much impossible to intercept it with piston engine fighters, and they would have a fighting chance against any jet interceptors the allies could put up.

They'd also be very useful for reconnaissance, this would have helped the Germans a lot in the late war.

Agreed, especially if they used the Ho229 like the US used the F117s in Desert Storm. If you use a stealthier aircraft to take out the Radar sites, then you can get your conventional aircraft through the air defenses.

This assumes that someone is thinking WAY outside the box for 1943, though.

I imagine without a fuselage, and tail, the wingloading of the jet would be less, making it more maneuverable than the '262.

Not 100% sure about that, since I don't have the stats handy, but an all-winged plane should have certain advantages, such as lower weight, greater range, etc.

Its use as a bomber taking out radar sites assumes it could carry a respectable bomb load and could hit something with it. Since Ju-87s had trouble destroying or damaging the British radar stations, I'd think that the Ho229 would have been rather less than useful at this role.

My other thought is that in late 1944 (or later), why would the Nazi high command be investing in a weapon that could not stop the Western Allies or the Soviets from crushing the remains of Nazi Germany? What a waste of manpower, materials and time.

Dan

My other thought is that in late 1944 (or later), why would the Nazi high command be investing in a weapon that could not stop the Western Allies or the Soviets from crushing the remains of Nazi Germany?

Wait, so the V1, V2 et all were actually going to help? This plane was actually a much more useful weapon then most of what the Germans were working in 44.

-Will

I agree. A huge push in the SAM development might have helped (which they had as a low ranked project), or a longer range AT missile, or … actually I cannot think of a thing that would have made a difference by 1944. Even the atomic bomb, produced in no more numbers than the US did by later 1945 would have changed the outcome.

Dan

link

Good pics on Daily mail website today

Well, it's supposed to have a 1000kg bombload, plus the two 30mm cannon. That's half the bombload of a B17, nothing to sneer at, particularly if using guided bombs like a Fritz X or HS293/294.

TGA: You're right, but tailless aircraft have maneuver limitations that aircraft with a vertical stabilizer don't. A P51 or Me262 can exceed 60* bank, while even a B2 with computer flight controls cannot.