"Early War British tanks in the desert" Topic

I am finishng off my "other" armies for Flames of War (hah!) and before I start something new, I have decided to open up my Brits some more.
Ever since I played Avalon hill's Afrika Korps, I have been interested in the 8th Army. Alas! The "afrika" book does not cover Tobruk!
Not to worry, there are semi-official lists on line. Search the TMP Archives.

Digressions aside…
A few questions. Bear in mind that I know very little, so stupid questions are to be expected.

What was the most common British tank? Old Glory makes the A9 and A10, and before my Army card runs out, I may pick some up.
Who makes the A13?
Could I, or should I for authenticity mix them in my squadron?
Do the Battlefront ones show up on eBay? A quick check came up with none. Are they worth searching out?
Would they be Caunter camo painted?
Should I get some Minifigs Rolls Royce Great War armoured cars?

And, any other questions you think I should be asking.
My Brits now have Grants and Honeys, along with Matildas and Valentines for my infantry tanks.
My friend uses Crusaders, so we have the "Afrika" armour pretty well covered. I want to do the earlier campaigns.

I know Peter Pig make A13s, two different types. I picked up a couple for use in Gear Krieg years ago.

The Mk1 is item no. 15, the Mk3 is item 173.

Couple of pics of the Mk1:
picture
picture

The mk3 has a different turret, with angled side armour added. No idea if the gun is different too.

Mixed A series tanks are certainly reasonable.

Caunter is historic – but not essential.

Rolls Royce A/Cs are always good.

Can't recommend particular models as 15mm isn't my scale.

What was the most common British tank?

That was sort of one of the British Army's problems in the first half of the war -- there wasn't a single "most common" tank. They had a fair mix of A9, A10, and A13 Cruiser tanks, along with the various marks of Vickers Light Tank and the Infantry Tanks. As the older A9's and A10's broke down the A13's would be a little more common until replaced by newer marks.

Once you get into the mid-war period, just before and as the Crusaders and US-built tanks start appearing, there are certainly instances of British units mixing tank types out of necessity, using whatever vehicles happened to be running that day. I believe they tried to keep the same type within a squadron, but I'm not sure how often this was possible or practical.

QRF do a Rolls Royce for the desert, open turreted with a Boyes ATR. I added some tank crew spares from FOW kit to add to the Hussar look.

Caunter isn't always the correct scheme. Older tanks that had been in the theatre for a while were plain sand, bleached almost to white.

I have a mix of A10 and A13 tanks for Beda Fomm era battles. Squadrons regularly swapped lights (Vickers) for infantry tanks so that all kinds of squadrons could deal with various threats.

I haven't seen Battlefront Early war tanks on Ebay much. Mine are Peter Pig, Command Decision and QRF with FOW Marmon-Herringtons, trucks and Bren carriers.

Roughly speaking …

In the beginning there were lots of MkVI lights and A9s. By end 1940 the A10s started showing up with increasing numbers of A13s. Then Rommel showed up and tidied things up a bit and by mid 1941 most of the MkVis, A9s and A10s were gone and A13s were the most common with the Crusaders showing up in force.

By end 1941 it was pretty much all Crusaders and Stuarts with the odd early Valentines a few survivors of the older Mks.

Then the Grants and finally the Shermans came and it got all messy again.

Caunter was far from universal but it is prettier than pinkish sand.

PS I believe that for a short while sometime end 40 or early 41, the Italian M11/39 was the most numerous tank in the British army.

Yes, you should get some Rolls Royce Armoured cars. Everyone should have them.

The book for Command Descision "Benghazi Handicap" is an excellent resource for Early Desert war even if you don't play that game. Organizations, TOE's, painting schemes all are covered. I have a slightly banged up copy I could let you have cheap if you're interested. PM me if you are.

From Pip Roberts' book:

Fighting the Italians:
11th Hussars in Rolls Royce AC
7th Hussars in MkVI Light Tanks
2RTR in A13 Cruisers
7RTR in Matilda II's
6RTR in captured Italian M13's!

March 1941:
11th Hussars re-equip with Marmon-Herringtons
2RTR re-equipped with reconditioned A9 and A10 Cruisers
4RTR and 7RTR in Matilda II's
6RTR re-equipped with new A15 Crusaders

Note that in March 1941, when Roberts was Brigade Major in 4th Armoured Brigade (4RTR, 7RTR), his command tank was an A10!

Hope this helps

VB

>>> What was the most common British tank? Old Glory makes the A9 and A10, and before my Army card runs out, I may pick some up.

I'd also recommend "Benghazi Handicap" to help answer this. Too many differing snapshots over time to provide a single answer.

>>> Who makes the A13?

Old Glory/Command Decision/Skytrex (CD139); Battlefront (well, mine are!); QRF (two different marks; you can do your own homework to figure them out).

And I also leave it to you to look at the readily available photos of all the non-BF models, compare them to photos of the real thing, and determine which are sufficiently accurate in proportions and details--to satisfy you. Some are distinctly better than others.

>>> Could I, or should I for authenticity mix them in my squadron?

See above. Actually, the old FoW EW British list breaks this down fairly well, as does the current "unofficial" one. I guess one would have to look at it to know that…

>>> Do the Battlefront ones show up on eBay? A quick check came up with none. Are they worth searching out?

Not much any more. They tend to be a bit taller than their metal counterparts, so if you have BF Crusaders, you might want to seek them out. Harder. Or wait for some old codger with a stash of them to drop in the traces.

>>> Would they be Caunter camo painted?

Not necessarily: depends on the timeframe, and as always, there are exceptions.

link

If you're going to do Caunter, at least do it right. Get Mike Starmer's book.

>>> Should I get some Minifigs Rolls Royce Great War armoured cars?

Nope. Wrong model for the Western Desert. There is one out there. It needs re-doing, badly.

Allen

Go with QRF Rolls Royce ACs. The main differences between WWI and WWII (early) refitted RRs were the tires and the turret. Not that you can't "get by" with WWI versions, but since there is a suitable WWII model out there …

'Get Mike Starmer's book.'
Only if you're really bored. I'm not sure it's reliable, but each to his own.

">>> Who makes the A13?"

Mine are Peter Pig, both types that they make.

As Allen says, the composition varies so much in 1941 in particular that there isn't really one 'common' tank. However by the time of BattleAxe a lot of the old clunkers had been weeded out, and by Crusader there is only really one brigade with old junk, sorry, A9/10/13.

CD139 is not listed in the Old Glory 25s catalog. 8(
Oh, well…

No, I guess not:

link

Allen

Unless you want to game the early pre-German Operation Compass you won't need any RRs. At that time the A10 and the A13mk3 are the most common with the A13 the most common. Also a fair number of MKVI lights.

For the time period of Tobruk & Operation Crusader the most common British tanks are Crusader mkI & II, Honeys (US M3 Stuarts and Matildas.

Honeys
8th Hussars
3 RTR
5 RTR

Crusaders
2 RTR
6 RTR
2 RGH
3 CLY
4 CLY

7th Hussars had one Squadron each of A10, A13 and Crusaders
1 RTR had a mix of A10 and A13, one squadron each.

Matilda
42 RTR
44 RTR
4 RTR

Valentine
8 RTR

And lots of Marmon-Herrington mkII AC.

As noted, by the time that Rommel landed the Brits were using a mix of tanks, A9s, A10s and A13s – as I recall, they broke down with depressing frequency and given the problems the RASC had in getting spares up to the front just about any mix should work

As I remember from when I gamed early Western Desert a long time ago, the lifespan of British tank commanders was unpredicatable and often short

In case you have never read it, "The Sands of Valour" is an outstanding book about the British side of the Western Desert from the point of view of an often beaten-upon British tank regiment

"The Sands of Valour"

Good book, I just re-read it recently, but it must be noted that it's a novel and not a history. The author, Geoffrey Wagner, was a British armour officer though, and seemed to know what he was writing about, so I can second the recommendation. The characters in the novel are assigned to a fictitious unit, the Droghedas.

It's not as good as Robert Crisp's "Brazen Chariots" or Crisp's lesser-known "The Gods Were Neutral", but it's better than Wagner's later novel "The Killing Time".

Yes, during Crusader Barrie Pitt says that 7th AB had about 2/3 old cruisers. They had the great fortune to run into nearly the entire Afrika Corps and get crushed in about 20 minutes. Or at least the tanks that they got running were crushed in 20 minutes. ;) A note on reliability – the cruisers were felt to be reliable by the British troops using them when they were relatively "fresh". After 1000 miles of fighting they tended to need complete rebuilds and overhauls, these not always being available they may have gotten an unfair reputation for reliability. After all, even my Japanese car breaks down if it isn't properly taken care of!

Mike Starmer's book is a useful tool – remmebering the reality that orders were not always followed to the "T". Personally, I'll be painting up my early cruiser squadron in Caunter, but taking the occasional liberty and short cut. His color charts are very useful. There are plenty of pics of this scheme on cruisers, and I've noted that the soldiers don't always respect the diagonals.

"Leakey's Luck", "Take These Men" and "Tanks across the Desert" are all memoires or virtually memoirs (TTM by Cyril Jolly has a "names have been changed to protect the innocent feel" to it).

Oh, and "Tank Battle in North Africa" by Thomas Jentz is a gamer's dream with complete coverage of all the early DAK v. British battles. Always on Amazon.

And the new plastic Axis & Allies Marmon Herrington Mk II is to scale for 15mm as is the M11/39 and the Cruiser A13 although the non up armoured version. much cheaper than the metals.