"So Typhoon doesn't work, then what?" Topic

You're Adolf Hitler and it's winter 1942. You have been pushed back from Moscow. Have you already lost World War 2?

If not, how do you win the war in the East? Do you launch Operation Blue? Or try something else?

Time to make nice with Uncle Joe.

To have any fighting chance at all, you better quit meddling, and let the generals do their job.

Go for Blue, don't send Army Groups A and B in different directions. Go for Stalingrad (post-Soviet Russian writings indicate that many senior ex-Red Army generals believe that Stalingrad would have fallen in a July-September time frame had that happened). Send the 11th Army north to bolster the long flank along the Don. Then send an Army group south from Stalingrad (after some time to build up logistics links) to take Baku.

Leningrad, and drive north, take our Murmansk and Archangel and one of the Russian supply routes has gone, now the size of the country becomes a problem for them as have to come in on the Pacific coast.

Built long range Bombers to interdict road and rail supply from the.

Once this is done do the souther swing into the caucusus to remove native oil and petrol supply, and offer a threat to the Persian Oil supplies of the Allies.

Let the generals actually run things, run Fall Blau as suggested by Aercdr, i.e. take Stalingrad early and push to Baku, take out the Soviet oil supply, then dig in in the East – talk Turkey in joining the war, reinforce Rommel, take Malta, push into Egypt and then on into Persia

Above all, don't exterminate/enslave people who could help you out

Thus, not very likely to happen

You're Adolf Hitler and its winter 1942. You have been pushed back from Moscow. Have you already lost World War 2?

If I am Hitler then as far as I am concerned it's a temporary setback, I listen to no-one, sack generals and replace them with my own lackeys.

I am convinced that the Russians are on their last legs and we attack on all fronts in all directions.

I make speeches calling for "total war" and "Vengence Weapons" after all were going to win if it kills us. After all I was mad enough to start this in the first place.

Maybe the rest of the world gets lucky and someone manages to kill me and sues of peace.

Questions:

1. Why not try for Moscow again, which is what Stalin was certain was going to happen? (The Soviets were obsessed with the Central Front.)

2. Assuming you take Stalingrad, you get control of the Volga and the rail link between Central Russia and the Southern periphery. Which is good.

However, if you take a break to reinforce and amass supply before going to Baku, the Russians get the same break. They do it better than you do and they can supply the Caucasus across the Caspian Sea or up through Iran. And the amount of territory the Germans have to hold with limited human resources gets bigger and bigger.

Re the "revolting subject peoples" of the Soviet Empire: Is this a myth? A couple of Cossack units. A couple of half-strength Ukrainian divisions (recruited from the POLISH part of the Ukraine IIRC) and some Baltic divisions. Somehow, I don't see a lot of Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians from the Central and Eastern Ukraine in there.

"You're Adolf Hitler and it's winter 1942."
"Let the generals actually run things."

Two mutually contradictory statements.

If I were the generals, I would not wait for Tom Cruise to get wounded and get back home to recuperate and avoid being taken in the bag in Tunisia. I would shoot Hitler now.

Surrender in the west, ask for concessions in Alsace-Lorraine, and see if the rest of the Allies actually like the good old Man of Steel?

-Kle.

Of course everyone in the west would like Superman.

Re the "revolting subject peoples" of the Soviet Empire: Is this a myth? A couple of Cossack units. A couple of half-strength Ukrainian divisions (recruited from the POLISH part of the Ukraine IIRC) and some Baltic divisions. Somehow, I don't see a lot of Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians from the Central and Eastern Ukraine in there.

The answer of course is we will never know. As events turned out Moscow nerver fell and Stalin remained in control. Had Moscow fallen and Stalin took off for safer lodgings it was a possibility – I would say no stronger than that.

The answer of course is we will never know. As events turned out Moscow nerver fell and Stalin remained in control. Had Moscow fallen and Stalin took off for safer lodgings it was a possibility – I would say no stronger than that.

I think the party and the NKVD security troops had a pretty good hold on things. AFAIK, there was never even a soldiers' mutiny in the Red Army, in any unit. Let alone a rebellion.

Again, I suspect that the Ukrainian separatist partisans would have hailed from the L'Vov area and adjacent territories in the far Western part of the Uke.

If I were the generals, I would not wait for Tom Cruise to get wounded and get back home to recuperate and avoid being taken in the bag in Tunisia. I would shoot Hitler now.

Except the generals REALLY, REALLY liked Hitler…. as long as he was successful. When he was losing badly and hopelessly – in 44, they decided they didn't really like him anymore and he should be gotten rid of. (Sort of the Tony Soprano approach to national leadership.)

There were lots and lots of Ukrainians who remembered the Holodor and who hated Stalin – however, the Germans did a very good job of convincing the Ukrainians that they were actually worse than the Russians, so who knows what might have happened if – say – the Germans committed to an independent Ukraine

Hitler did a very good job of giving loyal generals lots of perks, to the point at which loyalty overcame common sense

"Have you already lost World War 2?"

No. The traditional view is that although it is hard to conceive of an overall German victory after the failure of Typhoon, better management of their resources in 1942 and 43 might have resulted in fighting the Russians to a standstill. Whether this would have been acceptable to Hitler is another matter.

I think the party and the NKVD security troops had a pretty good hold on things. AFAIK, there was never even a soldiers' mutiny in the Red Army, in any unit. Let alone a rebellion.

Assuming they stay loyal of course. It wouldn't have been the first time that the Russian head of state's personal guards units had desserted him.

or been too scared to go and see if he was ok…

I think that Stalin was the most secure head of state in the world, as he had murdered everyone else who had any chance of succeeding him. And if he was killed by, say, Beria or one of his other cronies, what would change?

Start listening to my gramophone record of "Brazil" a lot.

I think that Stalin was the most secure head of state in the world, as he had murdered everyone else who had any chance of succeeding him. And if he was killed by, say, Beria or one of his other cronies, what would change?

Assuming of course that it is still the communists in power. Judging by what happened post war it is plausible that the Soviet Empire could start to fragment – as it did once the communists lost control.