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27 Jun 2009 2:15 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "Rebuttle to Marshal Mark's review of Napoleon" to "Rebuttal to Marshal Mark's review of Napoleon"

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Comments or corrections?

raylev327 Jun 2009 1:30 p.m. PST

First I've got to say that I really enjoyed Marshal Mark's issues because discussions like this really force you to learn a set of rules that much better. And these discussions help clarify ambiguities.

I went though MM's posting and found he identified 13 problems. Mostly I believe the rules do account for his issues, but the issue may be one of the gaming mechanism. On the other hand, I agree that there are a couple of places that could use clarification. However, I didn't find any of the contradictions.

There were a few places where I couldn't find the statement he was referring to, but in each of those cases I could find a specific rule that accounted for the issue.

First I state MM's problem and then my response.

Also, in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't played the game, yet, but I will. It seems like a fun, easy Napoleonic game – and there's room for this in the hobby. And I am biased in favor of games that include "friction" (my units don't do everything I want, when I want them to), and games where command is a key gaming factor. (FYI: I normally play Napoleon's Battles (1st Ed, although I now have the 3d ed.), Shako II, and Age of Eagles.)

So, here goes:

Problem #1: The engagement range is the higher of the units own charge move and any enemy charge moves within range. So if a unit of Light Cavalry (charge range 16") and a unit of infantry (charge range 8") are 10" away from a unit of enemy infantry, the Light Cavalry must place an order card and roll to activate, whilst the infantry unit is free to manoeuvre as it pleases. So by having a longer move rate, the cavalry is more restricted!

RESPONSE: I'm not sure that this is a bad thing. If the cavalry is "restricted" it's because it is in range to have to act or react to the enemy. His brother infantry unit is not, so he should retain his freedom to maneuver.
Of course, the enemy infantry unit is restricted because he's facing a potential threat from the enemy cavalry. This makes sense.

Problem #2: Order cards are only placed when the unit is within engagement range, and otherwise the unit moves in the movement phase when it cannot move within engagement range. This means if the Light Cavalry is 17" from the enemy at the start of the turn it moves in the Movement phase and can only move 1".

RESPONSE: True. I can accept this as the normal friction that occurs in war as units get to the point where they can come under fire, or be charged, and receive casualties; the commander stops his unit to make sure ranks are dress-right-dress or that they're ready to go into the breech. In principle it's the same as a charging unit having to stop one inch away from the enemy and take fire whether it starts his charge from two inches away or a full move away.

Problem #3: There is no "Manoeuvre" order or equivalent. So once in engagement range a unit of cavalry cannot manoeuvre into a position to attack the flank of an enemy infantry unit.

RESPONSE: Maneuver is allowed; you can charge, run, retreat and fire, retreat, and advance and fire. This falls into maneuver….Having said that, once you've moved within the range where you can be affected or affect the enemy, your ability to maneuver in the face of the enemy is reduced. Especially your ability to freely maneuver onto a flank while under fire should be restricted. Also, page 47 has a graphic that shows where you need to be in relation to your target in order to hit its flank – it's pretty standard; whether you can hit the flank or not depends on where your unit is in relationship to the enemy.

Problem #4: The other problem is because of the relatively low chance of activating units – around 50%.

RESPONSE: This is a bit misleading. Actually it depends on the year and the nationality. For example, the base command rating for a French general from 1805-1808 is 10; for a Prussian general it's seven. At the same time a general's command rating will vary up or down depending on a random die roll.

Using the basic command rating by way of illustration, a French general with a rating of 10 will automatically activate the unit closest to him, and he has a 83 percent chance of activating units within eight (16 for cav) inches. (Note: the rules say you must roll lower than the command rating.) Even from 1813-1815, when the French are at their worse, the command rating is eight; this means he will automatically activate the unit closest to him, and has a 58 percent chance of activating units within eight (16 for cav) inches. The worst generals are Austrians from 1807-1808, and in 1812, and Prussians in 1812, with a command rating of six. This means a general will automatically activate the unit closest to him, and has a 28 percent chance at less than eight inches (16 for cav). Every other army and year has a command rating between 7-9, which means the odds of activation are automatic for the closest unit and 42, 58, and 72 percent. This means that over 50 percent is more common.

The odds against activating go up if a unit is more than eight (16 for cav) inches away….but this insures the player keeps his units in command.

(Keep in mind the random roll for a general's rating has an equal chance of increasing by 1 or 2 as it does for decreasing by 1 or 2. That's why I used the standard by way of example.)

Problem #5: Personally I think every infantry unit should be allowed to fire as a default action, but this needs to be rolled for and some armies with low rated generals (e.g. Russians) will only fire about every 3rd turn !

RESPONSE: Actually Step 7, Volley Fire, allows, "a volley fire every turn provided they have made no more than a standard move." (P. 54) Since Musket range goes out to 15", units that are not inside the engagement area can fire, without orders, during the Volley Firing phase. Volley fire is a separate step in the turn sequence.

Problem #6: But the big problem arises when you want to charge with multiple units. For example, let's say three columns of infantry (attack with 2d6 each in close combat) are facing a line (attacks with 6d6). You would think the columns should stand a good chance of success. But each one has to activate separately, so the likelihood is that only one or two will actually charge and then they will face more dice from the line than they have in total and so will probably lose the combat.

RESPONSE: See my response to Problem #5 – the better the commander the greater the odds the unit will activate. Also, I don't have a problem with the concept that all my units won't do as I want…for me, that's just another way of capturing the friction of war. The idea that units may not act when and how you want is reality; they can be held up by terrain issues, poor execution, fear, etc. It makes leadership important -- as it was, and is.

Problem #7: Orders are placed, artillery fires then orders are revealed and acted on alternately, the player with initiative acting first. Then other units (ie ones outside of engagement range) may shoot, then move, then morale checks are taken. Casualties are caused to units by shooting, combat and fatigue. These build up and must be recorded. If the unit has taken casualties in the turn, it must roll below its total casualties (number of dice depends on unit type) or fail morale. One fail means it goes to "Lost Orders" when it may take a random action, another failure means it routs. Until they rout, units fight and shoot at full effect – there is no gradual deterioration in effectiveness, no weakening of the units before routing.

RESPONSE: It's just a mechanism for determining losses. Granted, I prefer units weakening before routing, but you can also make an argument that a unit who takes a lot of casualties within a finite period of time is more susceptible to destruction.

Problem #8: Artillery need to roll a different number if firing into the flank – however, what constitutes firing onto the flank is not defined.

RESPONSE: I agree this is not clear because it's not specifically explained in the Artillery Fire phase. However, there is a definition of flank on p. 47 that I believe is suitable for artillery.

Problem #9: On one page it states that artillery is more effective when shooting at a unit in column (as would be expected) – however the artillery shooting table shows that it easier to hit a unit in line (4+ on each dice) than in column (5+) so artillery is actually more effective against infantry in line than in column !

RESPONSE: I couldn't find where you say it's more effective firing into column, but under the Artillery Fire phase it clearly states that the frontage of a unit determines how difficult it is to hit (p. 43) and this is also reflected in the firing table where a line, with it's bigger frontage, is easier to hit than a column.

Problem #10: In the section on orders it states that the player with initiative must move first in the movement phase, and this counters some of the advantage they had for activating first in the Tactical Orders phase. However, on the very next page (under movement) it states that the player with initiative may choose to go first or second.

RESPONSE: I couldn't find a statement that says the player with the initiative must move first in the movement phase. I did find in the Command Card Orders step where it says the player with the initiative chooses his orders card first (p. 45). And then the first sentence of the Movement Phase says, "The player who won the initiative for the turn can choose to move…or make his opponent move…first." (p. 50) Seems pretty clear.

Problem #11: There are no rules for interpenetration (passage of lines) which is something I would expect to see in this scale rules.

RESPONSE: Agreed. I'm surprised this was overlooked. Although, given the period and the formations of the time, I've elected to NOT allow interpenetration.

Problem #12: Skirmisher capability is included within infantry units, and supposedly detailed in the special rules for each army. However, I could only find rules for skirmishers in the French army special rules – maybe they are the only army that gets them.

RESPONSE: Skirmisher capability is abstracted and included within the Skirmisher Fire Resolution phase. If you don't like the abstraction, there's a more detailed skirmisher option under the advanced rules (p. 80). Having said that, I agree that the rules are not very clear. The abstraction allows for units with light companies to use them as skirmishers, and they can fire; however it's unclear how many dice they role. It refers to the army lists, but I couldn't find anything there. Having said that, the rules infer, and I repeat, infer, that you use one dice per firing stand. (If anyone can find a rule to clarify this….please do.)

As for the Brits, the rules (p. 53) and army lists include riflemen as skirmishers.

BTW, I think the issue of how any set of Napoleonic rules handles skirmishers is one of the most contentious issues in wargaming. It's caused more divorces than unfaithful spouses!

Problem #13: Under shooting it mentions splitting shooting at multiple charging opponents – however this cannot happen due to the alternate activation system the shooters can only react to one charging unit so can only shoot at one charger.

RESPONSE: Again, I couldn't find what you describe, but it's clearly covered under the Volley Firing phase (p. 54). "A firing unit would normally direct all of its firepower at a single target. If the arc of fire restriction makes this impossible the unit can divide fire between enemy units."

Also, (on the same page), "If two enemy units are charging the firing unit, then fire can be divided between the charging units." I would have preferred this sentence to be in the Command Card Orders section, but it makes sense regardless.

GrotGnome27 Jun 2009 2:08 p.m. PST

"Problem #7: …… If the unit has taken casualties in the turn, it must roll below its total casualties (number of dice depends on unit type) or fail morale….."

It in fact reads "it must roll *MORE* than its total casualties (number of dice depends on unit type) or fail morale."

The higher the number of casualties the harder it is to pass the morale test – no obvious problem there IMO

Keithandor27 Jun 2009 4:42 p.m. PST

A good post thanks for taking the time to make a rational response.
Problem #5
I am not sure if we understand the step 7 Volley fire.
I think units that have not moved more than a normal move can fire , there is no reason why a unit that is in engagement range can't fire in step 7. Even if they failed their command roll ?

Connard Sage28 Jun 2009 2:31 a.m. PST

Did it need a new thread?

I have the rules. I don't like them, or the bathtubbing that they do with the figure/game scale.

RESPONSE: I'm not sure that this is a bad thing. If the cavalry is "restricted" it's because it is in range to have to act or react to the enemy. His brother infantry unit is not, so he should retain his freedom to maneuver.

and that's cobblers. If the enemy infantry unit is out of range why should the light cavalry have to react to it? It isn't a threat. "I say chaps, there's an enemy infantry unit over on the next hill, they can't hit us from there but we'd better stop what we're doing and react to it just in case". I don't buy it.

The above also makes a nonsense of your 'rebuttal' to point 2, especially if the unit of friendly infantry are involved. The enemy must fire at them first because they're closer.

The rules are broken, they need a rewrite

Boone Doggle28 Jun 2009 2:47 a.m. PST

Nice discussion.

I must admit I think the effect of Problems #1,2&3 in combination feels wrong. A fast cavalry unit and a slow infantry unit are facing the same slow enemy. The cavalry should be the one that feels more confident to maneuver freely against a 3rd unit. But the rules give the infantry unit greater flexibility.

Another example, an infantry unit can calmly march across the front of an enemy infantry line 9" away but a light cavalry unit cannot even at 15" away. Doesn't feel right.

I don't like Problem #4 either but it is common to rulesets. I personally feel that in cases where units are in close contact they should be allowed to charge or fail as a group. I think when a charge goes in, all the units tend to go in. When a unit falters, usually the others falter as well.

AppleMak28 Jun 2009 3:39 a.m. PST

I have ordered the rules and have not yet sen them, never mid played them, so this is an observation only. This debate is actually very useful and informative. When I DO get the rules, I will read them with both these threads to hand :-)

Regarding the possibility of hitting Line rather than column, it seems 'instinctive' that given the accuracy of the weapons at the time, it WOULD be easier to strike a line "somewhere" than a column, simply due to the wider frontage. What matters is the IMPACT of the hit. A cannon striking a line wold plough through the three lines with appropriate damage, a similar strike on a column would impact on a significantly increased depth, therefore the potential casualty rate should be higher, perhaps by a factor of 5 or 6. Is this covered in the rules?

Connard Sage28 Jun 2009 3:58 a.m. PST

Is this covered in the rules?

No. Interestingly, in 'Effects of artillery fire' (p44) is a paragraph that reads "The heavier the weight of the cannon balls, the further the ball will penetrate into the ranks…hence the greater casualties suffered by units in column"

So the rules recognise the effect, but make no effort to model it! Canister is a separate case (er, sorry :)). On the same page it states that "…the target's unit type and formation has no effect on the chances of being hit [by canister]". Make of that what you will.

BTW, a 'hit' is a kill, or perhaps 2 kills if the firing unit is heavy artillery. Canister scores 1D6 hits per tube firing modified by a chart according to the weight of the gun!

Zippee28 Jun 2009 4:45 a.m. PST

Seems to me that a minor tweak to the engagement rules solves most of the issue.

1) any unit within the engagement range of an enemy unit is restricted to engagement orders
2) any unit that is within its own egagement range of an enemy unit but is not itself within the enemy's engagement range may choose to operate on engagement orders this turn or not as the player desires.

I'd also apply that to 'problem 2' as long as a unit doesn't come within an enemy's engagement range it can continue to move as normal.

All of which basically means units exert a ZOC.

I suspect they are written as they are to make things simpler – it's black and white, you are or you're not.

Connard Sage28 Jun 2009 6:17 a.m. PST

1) any unit within the engagement range of an enemy unit is restricted to engagement orders
2) any unit that is within its own egagement range of an enemy unit but is not itself within the enemy's engagement range may choose to operate on engagement orders this turn or not as the player desires.

Great. I'll take 4 units of infantry, 2 of artillery and 4 of chasseurs a cheval. You can have 8 units of infantry, 1 of heavy dragoons and 1 of artillery.

I win

Zippee28 Jun 2009 6:43 a.m. PST

:-)

relying on the bathtubbing you so dislike I see, so kind of you to design my force as well, some would call that a straw man LOL

Although Austrian mixed advant garde formations might actually have a purpose like this

Connard Sage28 Jun 2009 6:46 a.m. PST

relying on the bathtubbing you so dislike I see, so kind of you to design my force as well, some would call that a straw man LOL

Absolutely, but if I've thought of it you can bet some smartarse would bring it to the table. :)

raylev328 Jun 2009 1:39 p.m. PST

Keithandor…I agree with you -- it's not clear at all whether or not a unit that has an order in the Command Card phase can still volley in the later Volley Firing phase. (For that matter, I just noticed that it's not clear whether or not a unit that received an order in the Order Phase can move during the movement phase.)

On the one hand, the first sentence in Volley Fire says that,"Units can fire a volley fire every turn provided they have made no more than a standard move." (p. 54) This would imply that a unit who had an order in the Order's phase could still volley fire as long as he made no more than a standard move in the Movement Phase.

On the other hand, intuitively it would seem to me that if a unit has an order in the Order's phase, that that would be his turn….ditto with whether he could move during the Movement Phase.

Question: Can I move my unit out of the Engagement Zone during the Movement Phase, or do I need to use an order during the Order Phase? The rules don't appear to address this….not that I can find. Personnally I would err on the side of saying the once you're engaged in the Engagement Zone, you need an order to get out of it….because you're engaged with the enemy -- a retreat order, for example, could get you out. But that's nothing more than my two cents worth.

raylev328 Jun 2009 1:49 p.m. PST

Whoops….In Problem #10 Marshal Mark is correct in finding a contradiction vis-a-vis initiative in the Command Card Orders phase vs. the initiative in the Movement Phase.

I finally found the quote MM refers to in the box on p. 49 where it says, "The Player who goes first in the Tactical Orders phase will also have to move his men first in the Movement Phase…."

Then on p. 50 (Movement) the first sentence says, "The player who won the initiative for the turn can choose to move one of the divisions of his own first or make his opponent move one of their divisions first."

Hmmmm…..as Marshal Mark said, a direct contradiction within a page of each other.

Keithandor28 Jun 2009 4:18 p.m. PST

raylev3 : Yes I agree the volley fire has no restrictions on whether you have fired before or done anything in the orders phase.
It does state that "units can volley fire every turn as long as they have made no more than a normal move."

My only question would be can they fire twice in a turn , from a command card and in the volley phase ?

Clay the Elitist28 Jun 2009 4:39 p.m. PST

Very interesting response Ray, it almost seems to validate many of the points. I guess it's interpretation/expectation.

You mention loving rules that don't let the player have absolute control and where command is a key factor – and then mention NB, Shako and AoE!

What about the "Highlanders with kilts" bonus? Is that in there?

Connard Sage28 Jun 2009 4:46 p.m. PST

What about the "Highlanders with kilts" bonus? Is that in there?

Page 149 "Highlanders were feared for their ferocious charges. Any kilted highland units charging to close combat can re-roll any scores of 1."

Keithandor29 Jun 2009 3:26 a.m. PST

Zippee said "
1) any unit within the engagement range of an enemy unit is restricted to engagement orders
2) any unit that is within its own egagement range of an enemy unit but is not itself within the enemy's engagement range may choose to operate on engagement orders this turn or not as the player desires.

I'd also apply that to 'problem 2' as long as a unit doesn't come within an enemy's engagement range it can continue to move as normal.

All of which basically means units exert a ZOC."


This is how I thought it was written ,and this is how it reads when you read page 50 on it's own.

It's the wording on page 40 relating to egagement range that stuffs it up.
I will be playing the enegement rules as written on page 50 and put the last paragraph before the picture on page 40 down to a typo or something.
What do you think ?

50 Dylan CDs and an Icepick29 Jun 2009 9:37 a.m. PST

Zones of Control are one of those concepts that never seem to work as well for miniatures games as they do for boardgames.

For instance, does the ZOC only extend to those units you could shoot or reach with a charge move… or does it extend a certain distance in any direction?

If the enemy is 2" behind you… is he in your ZOC?

If a piece of terrain would partially interfere with your move, slowing you and making you unable to reach me if you charged me this turn… even though it doesn't cover my front or obscure me in any way… has your ZOC suddenly decreased? (Are you now more free to move as you please, because you know that you can't charge me this turn?)

Keithandor29 Jun 2009 3:05 p.m. PST

Yep I agree , you just hasve to decide how you are going to play it before the game.
I will be playign a few games soon and I think it will work iteself out pretty quick.
The book's intentions are good , so we'll have to see how it goes in practice.
I haven't had any real reviews from people who have played half a dozen games to get a feel of the rules.

Connard Sage29 Jun 2009 3:34 p.m. PST

I haven't had any real reviews from people who have played half a dozen games to get a feel of the rules.

I suspect that's because not many people could be bothered to play the damn game 6 times…

raylev330 Jun 2009 9:31 a.m. PST

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of an engagement zone. MM's problem, that you can't maneuver in the engagement zone only means you have to think ahead. Any maneuvering you do must be done BEFORE you become engaged -- this makes since. Too many games allow total freedom of maneuver no matter how close you are to the enemy, but the reality is that once you're engaged (within range of the enemy) your flexibility is reduced.

1234567830 Jun 2009 2:21 p.m. PST

The engagement zone concept, as written, is nonsensical, although there is an interesting underlying concept.

It makes no sense for the cavalry to be restricted by a unit which is not a threat to it, while a friendly infantry unit at the same distance is not restricted. Restrictions should be based on a threat from enemy units, not one's own ability to threaten them!

This is only one example but it is indicative of the poor logic and lack of clarity of thought that seems to run all through the rules.

The "Highland charge" rule is also utter nonsense; did the author get a little confused with the 18th century Jacobite highland infantry (or at least the Victorian view of them)?

I do agree that the rules can be tweaked fairly easily but I do not expect to have to do as much tweaking as is required in this set.

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