| heraldrydude | 27 Jun 2009 9:23 a.m. PST |
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the panthers in this picture? I have a little information on them, but I am not sure if something more has ever been found out about what unit they were in. These two panther G's are advancing through the Haguenauer forest, north of Strasbourg, on 3 January 1945. They may be from either 21 Panzer-Division or Pz-Abt-5 from 25.Panzer-Grenadier-Division. The middle sign attached to the tree on the right says "Steinbruch Fischer" and points the way to a quarry." link Jon |
| Wg Cdr Luddite | 27 Jun 2009 10:15 a.m. PST |
I'd say they were probably captured by an ENSA troop with a lorry load of schnapps. The picture probably shows them post-schnapps after being re-painted purple & yellow and on a booze cruise in search of more schnapps. I believe I can identify one of the crew as Windsor Davies. |
| Martin Rapier | 27 Jun 2009 12:11 p.m. PST |
In the absence of any tactical markings, or other photos of vehicles in similar markings attributed to particular units, I don't think there is much else which can be gleaned from the photo which you haven't already done. Interesting camo scheme though, never seen that form of splinter on a Panther before. The most famous splinter camo Panthers are from SS Wiking, unlikely to be rolling arouund the Western front in 1945;-) Given the small numbers, I'd be more inclined towards 25th PzGr, as they only had a handful of Panthers anyway. |
| heraldrydude | 27 Jun 2009 1:16 p.m. PST |
Thanks. I know it's difficult to ID these pictures sometimes. What I also found was that they had a reserve force, temporarily under control of Army Group G, XXXIX Panzer Corps, under Lt. Gen. Karl Decker, with the requipped 21st Panzer and 25th Panzer Grenadier Divisions-the former with 18 medium (Mark IV) and 31 heavy (Mark V) Panther tanks, and the latter with 9 medium and 20 heavies, with about 20 additional Panthers. So I guess it's still possibly both. I have another picture around somewhere that shows a group of this same unit. I will post it, if I find it. Jon |
 Virtualscratchbuilder   | 27 Jun 2009 1:21 p.m. PST |
What I like about the photo is that it is one of (to me) the rare ones where you see tanks cruising through a place that is NOT all shot to pieces and there are not burned out vehicles littering the ditches. |
| GrotGnome | 27 Jun 2009 2:14 p.m. PST |
"Given the small numbers, I'd be more inclined towards 25th PzGr, as they only had a handful of Panthers anyway." According to Jentz they received 36 Panthers in total in two batches, 6 then another 30 – not small numbers by 1945 |
| tuscaloosa | 27 Jun 2009 2:26 p.m. PST |
Good point, vsb. I wonder who took the photograph; if I were an Alsation peasant I wouldn't dare stand by the side of the road and take a happy snap, for fear of being shot out of hand. And if a German Propaganda Kompanie photog had taken the shot, he'd probably have insisted the tank crew smile or do something that looked fake and happy… |
| heraldrydude | 27 Jun 2009 9:29 p.m. PST |
Okay, here's the other shot of these bad boys. I wish the resolution was better, but I think the tanks I have noted as "A" and "B" are the same ones in the first shot. Hard to say for sure, but by looking at front end the camoflage looks the same. I hope my link works. picture Here's a conceptual sketch of what the camouflage looks like. picture Jon |
| Ditto Tango 2 1 | 27 Jun 2009 11:31 p.m. PST |
Jon, did you do that sketch?
--
Tim |
| Andy ONeill | 28 Jun 2009 2:44 a.m. PST |
I think the contrast is way to high to be dark yellow against white. |
| kevanG | 28 Jun 2009 4:48 a.m. PST |
Interesting, the 2 in the first photo were the only 2 with sideskirts |
| heraldrydude | 28 Jun 2009 10:30 a.m. PST |
Hi,
No I did not do the sketch. I found along time ago online, but I don't know where. There's one version here: link I am not sure if this is guy that did this sketch or not, but it could be possible because evidently modeled a tank that way. Jon |
| donlowry | 28 Jun 2009 1:50 p.m. PST |
I'm surprised that a Heer PG division actually had Panthers. I've often read that they mostly received StuGs in lieu of panzers, with maybe a few Pz IVs. Is this a "myth?" |
| Richard Baber | 28 Jun 2009 1:51 p.m. PST |
Sometimes they had to "make do" :-) |
| GrotGnome | 28 Jun 2009 6:10 p.m. PST |
"Is this a "myth?"" No it's not a myth, this particular instance with 25PG Div. is the exception. The other PG Div with Panthers was GD, which was really a Panzer division in all but name anyway. |
| Etranger | 28 Jun 2009 10:51 p.m. PST |
Nice find. It's possible that the high contrast is due to the underlying colour being predominantly green rather than dunkelgelb. |
| Lion in the Stars | 29 Jun 2009 11:39 a.m. PST |
Wasn't the base color of german armor either red primer or a dark green in Jan '45? |
| Martin Rapier | 29 Jun 2009 12:40 p.m. PST |
They may just have been really filthy before they put the whitewash on:-) |
| donlowry | 29 Jun 2009 12:59 p.m. PST |
Everything looks dark compared to white. |
| heraldrydude | 29 Jun 2009 8:13 p.m. PST |
Hi,
I would assume they received their tanks the basic color, then added the camo once they were in possession of them. Or (I don't know)they received the tanks with the camo already painted on them. Then when winter set in, the added the whitewash. So I believe that the underlying camo might have been filthy as Martin mentioned. Jon |
| Crunchy Frog | 01 Jul 2009 5:25 p.m. PST |
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but the photo appears on page 203 of Thomas Jentz's Panzertruppen, vol. II. I recognized the photo immediately. There is no further information there, but you might contact Jentz directly and see if he knows more. |
| Ross Mcpharter | 02 Jul 2009 1:34 a.m. PST |
I'm sure I've seen this photo in the German Bundesarchiv for 1945. link |
