"AFV's Time to bug out/ Move to hide" Topic

More recent games with Manouver Group have shown that there may be an issue with the time to move an AFV into/out of a prepared position and or its hide. This is to do with the minimal number of "drills" within the rules which allow enactment of detailed pre-rehersed actions. If as we percive there is an issue, we will proably add an additional engineering optional item allowing the use of specialist drills with the associated engineering/crew resouceing to allow this drill to be enacted.

So to the question.

Standard tank tactics for the UK and others are for vehicals to have at least 2 fighting positions and when return fire becomes to intence they move to a second position. So the question is how long should it take to move out to the next hide/get on route to a new position from the command equivalent to "Bug Out to position Bravo"?

The expected sequence would be:-

Fire smoke to provide limited cover,
Reverse from the hull down position .
At some pre marked point (the mauals say strategically placed rubbish) the driver can reverse to turn round.
Set off down a pre-marked path to the next hide.

The question is how long to get say 100m from the original position and be going forwards.

Similarly how long to take up position in the new hide.

The key is that the position is pre surveyed and hence the driver to a large part is acting on his own without needing much guidance from the TC.

Practical timeings for setting up such a position are also welcome.

Plase note timeing should be in minutes and seconds not game bounds. Plase state any assumptions you consider ket to your timings.

Depending upon the situation, the driver may not have the time / space / affordibility of having a "turnaround point" and possibly be doing the entire thing in reverse…not pretty…that means the enemy is WAAAAAY to close for comfort…

Serving as a TC for a few years we were essentially told that we had a "primary position", a "secondary position" (which we never saw), and an "alternat position", (gawd knows where), when "the russkies would come charging over the border"…

The basic idea was to have the secondary or alternate postion "somewhere nearby" to be able to move to quickly and continue engaging the enemy, but at the same time, be clear of any enemy artillery that may be impacting upon your primary fighting position.
Now keep this in mind that all the time, the enemy may be advancing and shooting at you…because if you can engage the enemy, then he can engage you…

huh?

I'm thinking IMHO that the concept of "secondary battle positions" / "alternate fighting positions" is more of a "glorified doctrine pipe dream", than a reality. On the field it's more of a "fall back to someplace where we won't get killed, and try to figure out what the h*ll is going on!"

There is a difference between a tank/IFV fighting position and a battle position. A tank will have a 2d and even a 3d firing position 50-100m from their primary position. The idea was to have the positions far enough apart so that someone shooting at one would have to reaquire the second, but close enough to get to quickly and unseen. Ideally, the driver should be able to back 20-30m out of the 1st and drive forward into the second. Total time to do so: under 30 seconds. I trained my crews to take 2 aimed shots from a position, then move. You did not use smoke to cover this move, as it attracted more attention than you already had, plus it would probably interfer with the new position. In a properly prepared firing position, a tank will disappear in under 2 seconds by backing out and down. In fact, we trained at gunnery with the tank in reverse gear and the driver backed up and moved to the alternate position without orders as soon as the 2d shot was fired.

A platoon or company battle position is a small geographic area, preferably anchored on a specific terrain feature, that the unit holds for a designated time. The tank/IFV primary, secondary, and alternate firing positions are all within the battle position. A unit could also have limited maneuverability within a BP, such as redeply to cover a threatened flank or concentrate fire. The platoon or company would maneuver backwards or forward from BP to BP as the bad guys closed the range or fell back. Maneuvering between positions could easily take 5 minutes. You tried to hold the primary position with part of the unit, providing covering fire while the rest of the unit moved. Once the moving element was set on the new BP, they provided cover fire while the stay behind element tried to disengage. Here is where you used smoke, artillery, obstacles and anything else to hide your move. But in practice, Murphy pretty well sums it up.

An alternate fighting position is a near by location for the vehicle to use inside his units (platoons) battle position. The desire is that each vehicle has two different fighting positions it can reach from the same hide position. The vehicle would fire from the first position then reverse to hide and then pull forward into its alternate and engage the enemy. Probably a two minute turn around would be on the quick side for a good crew in ideal conditions. (but, I had a Platoon Leader pull it off at the NTC with his platoon while, unknown, the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army, General Maxwell Thurman watched the battle unfold.)

How long it takes depends on the tank's power-to-weight ratio. The MBT70 prototypes were much faster tactically (moving from hide to hide) than the M48/M60 series due to their 1500hp/50ton PtW. The MBT70s could simply accelerate faster. Similarly, I've heard that the Merkavas are rather slow tactically (Mks1-3, not Mk4), due to their low installed power.

Since acceleration depends on gearing and torque more than pure horsepower, I'm not sure how to compare other tanks, but the 0-32kph ratings from Janes might be a place to start.

Cold Steel's description matches my experiences. Two to Five minutes to displace from one fighting position to another.

We never "turned around", we just backed straight out and re-positioned. We also did not use smoke for the same reasons he described.

In the beginning of your message you discuss moving to the hide after firing. This is very quick. In our home rules we allow units on overwatch to fire and duck and the only units that can fire at them before they duck are enemy units also on overwatch or the active unit that triggered the fire/duck.

As Stone said, we practiced pulling up, putting the tank in reverse (so that when the transmission made the tank jump it would blow the shot) and then the driver holds the brake down. The second the shot went off we were already backing down.

Ed G

I'm thinking IMHO that the concept of "secondary battle positions" / "alternate fighting positions" is more of a "glorified doctrine pipe dream", than a reality.

We (Canadians) practiced with primary and secondary positions with Leopards. I hated defensive operations.

Apart from that, my experiences mirror what our US comrades have mentioned above.

We didn't bother with smoke either and marking a safe place to turn around after pulling back from the hull down was not done – a crew commander would know this anyway.

To answer the original question, I would simply just factor in the time as per how you move your miniatures to jockey down off the current position and move into the new spot.

Benefits of firing from such positions would be increased accuracy as the crew would know the environs.

Maybe if the system has some kind of activation roll to perform such a task, then the activation roll would be more favourable?
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Tim

Many thanks for the insight. It is much appreciated