"Minis Scale Discussion for Birds of Prey (P700ish system)" Topic

We are looking seriously into doing up minis for Birds of Prey, which is a high fidelity sim of air combat in the jet age. It's a dogfighting game, and requires players thing like pilots, not a flight level game.

Our goal is to make (or acquire for resale) one jet mini for every plane in the boxed set and keep rolling it out on a 1:1 basis.

I'm aiming for 1:600 scale; the players out there are hoping for 1:350. The game rarely has more than 4-8 planes on the table at a time.

My experience is that any mini that's longer than 2.5" is profoundly unuseful as a game piece – it gets knocked off the stand too often, showing it at pitch and bank and roll with magnets results in needing a 5" diameter base. (for a game that uses a 0.75" hex scale…)

In round numbers, for pewter, it's about $600 USD per plane to get it into production; I'd need to run 4 different planes per batch (minimum) to make the economies of scale on the setups happen. This is scale independent.

For injection molded plastic at 1:600, it's about $1,100 USD per plane to get it into production, but I'd need to run 8 different planes per batch to get the economies of scale.

For injection molded plastic at 1:350, it's about $1,400 USD per plane to get it into production, and I'd need to run 3-5 planes per batch.

This would be using a pre-order system, like our last couple of sets of spaceship minis have.

I'm interested in some 1/600th modern jets, if the price is reasonable.

There are already some nice kits in plastic, for 1/350th scale. Granted, not a wide range of them, but a lot more than there used to be. Ultramodern USAF and Russian Air Force jets are available.

I use 1/600th, 1/300th, and 1/144th for gaming already, plus a few others, so probably won't jump in to the 1/350th scale, even though they look more impressive than the smaller scale jets. I'll just stick with 1/300th.

I know CAD/CAM isn't cheap, but $600 USD per plane seems a bit high to me, especially if you will be doing a range of different aircraft in the same mold. Since they will be so small, you should be able to get quite a few in a single mold, if you decide to go that route. You might want to check around to see if they can be produced for less.

Good luck on the project.

Let us know how it goes.

$600 USD per plane is based off of the average costs for some of our similarly sized spaceship minis, and included the following steps:

1) Making the water-tight model
2) Making the 3-D prototype
3) Getting the bronze master
4) Cleanup at the casting house of the bronze master (filling in cracks, filing, sanding, etc)
5) Making the master mold
6) Making the production molds (one per individual plane)

Steps 2 and 5 are where having multiple planes in the run can cut costs.

I see two decision criteria:
1) What scenarios/aircraft are in the box, and
2) How popular are those aircraft already?

Given the hex-size, I'd prefer 1/600 scale if you're going to provide minis in the box. I'd want something like the SFB megahex map (with those huge, 4" hexes) for 1/300 or 1/350.

If you're doing classic match-ups, there's F86 versus MiG15 in Korea, F4 versus MiG21 in Vietnam, F14 versus Su22 or MiG23 over Libya, and F15 versus MiG29 for Cold War and/or Iraq. I think there's a relative lack of early jets in 1/600, but Vietnam-and-later seems to be well-represented already.

Assuming those 8-9 different aircraft, would it be affordable to go plastic? That way, each game would get one or two sprues, and you could plan expansions a full sprue at a time.

Lion – the game already comes with box minis and tilt blocks, these would be like buying miniatures for AV:T or SS or SITS.

Early jets

These early aircraft were basically extensions of late WWII aircraft design, with a Jet engine rather than a piston engine. Some innovations were introduced in this first generation of fighter such as swept wings, ejector seats, and flying tails.
Mig-15
F-86
Hawker Hunter
Mig-17

Early Supersonic

The second generation of jet fighter introduced innovations such as the delta wing, variable inlets, and area ruled fuselages. These were the first production aircraft to break the sound barrier.
Mig-19
F-104
F-8E
Mirage IIIC
Mig-21

Upgraded

Supersonic The third generation of jet fighters show a maturing of earlier design innovations. In addition the weapons of this era show much improvement.
F-4 Phantom E
Mig-21-J
F-4 Phantom J
English Electric/BAC Electric Lightning
Early Modern The fourth generation of fighters represents the start of a shift in design emphasis from speed and payload to maneuverability.
Mig-23
F-5E
F-14
Mirage F1
JA 37 Jakviggen

Modern

The modern fighters show much more refinement of earlier advances, particularly the swing wing. Design focus shifted much more towards energy and maneuverability.
F-15
F-16
F/A-18
Mig-29
Su-27
Mirage 2000

So these would be the 24 minis I'd want to run first.

My aim is to set it up so that there's a "gotta have it" mini in each wave of 6-8 jets, so that it can carry the others into production. Otherwise, I'd just make the F-15, F-16, F-14, F-18, MiG 25 and Su-27, and the rest would happen sometime after I won the lottery. :)

The reason why I'm (personally) in favor of 1:600 scale is because it makes it easier for me to have "one cool plane" carry a bunch of lesser known planes into production.

Most of the aircraft you talk about are already available from Tumbling Dice (TD) and Odzial Osmy (OO) in 1/600.

Mig-15 TD and OO
F-86 TD and OO
Hawker Hunter TD
Mig-17 TD and OO
Mig-19 TD and OO
F-104 TD
F-8E TD
Mirage IIIC TD
Mig-21 TD
F-4 Phantom E TD and OO
Mig-21-J OO
F-4 Phantom J (I am not too good on variants is this different enough to be identifiable in 1/600?)
English Electric/BAC Electric Lightning TD
Mig-23 TD and OO
F-5E TD
F-14 TD
Mirage F1 TD
JA 37 Jakviggen OO
F-15 TD
F-16 TD and OO
F/A-18 TD and OO
Mig-29 TD
Su-27 TD
Mirage 2000 TD

Some of these are not the best sculpts so if you do them better I would buy some even though I already have many. I dont play Birds of Prey nor do I have any interest in 1/300 or 1/350 scale modern jets. Would your efforts not be better spent in producing aircraft not already available?

Al

One of the hazards of choosing a scale is that no matter what scale you go into, there's competition.

We're pretty much staying clear of the 1:285/1:300 scales, because there's just too much good stuff there.

1:350 is somewhat of a virgin field; there's a handful of people who make them, they're mostly Naval jets, and they're all multi-part models that don't stand up to the rigors of gaming.

1:600 has exactly two vendors there, and if we can go with plastics that are lighter and more detailed, we get a niche all to ourselves. Because of how we'll be doing the models, we can probably beat sculpt quality on pewter as well.

We regularly get details as small as 1/50th of an inch (half a millimeter) to show up on models, and with some preparation, can get 1/72nd of an inch features (0.3 mm) to show up.

It depends upon the final product and price. I imagine you are shooting for a GHQ/CinC (now Pfc.) level of quality, as one piece castings.

I have some of the TD and OO jets as well.

Some of the TD are decent, while others need a bit of work.

Many of the OO models are superb, but are slightly smaller than the TD jets. Overally, I prefer their sculpting style, since they seem to be better representations of the actual aircraft, in terms of overall shape, and proportions.

Some of the new bombers being put out by Lance, through Pico also look quite nice as well.

If the pricing is reasonable, and the quality is better than the above, I will buy some as well.

However, for the packaging, I would prefer to see them in either matched pairs, or matched flights, if possible. I'm not going to want just one of any of the jets, and may not be able to afford multiples of all of the packs.

If you must mix packs, I suggest doing them in packs of 4 – 8 aircraft, e.g. two planes of two types for the same air force, or for opposing air forces for the four packs (from the same period, and theater of combat), e.g. 2 x F4B's and 2 x F-8 Crusaders; or 2 x F-86's and 2 x Mig-15's. Alternatively, 2 planes of four types would be acceptable too – preferably from the same time period, theater of combat, and performance capability mix.

For the rules I use, flights of four of the same type would be better for me.

I would prefer metal over plastic, unless the plastic minis are going to be significantly less expensive.

A discount offered for larger packs, or a complete set, might help sell the more rare types.

"1:600 has exactly two vendors there, and if we can go with plastics that are lighter and more detailed, we get a niche all to ourselves."

Not to be negative and just to throw in my 2-cents worth :). In regards to using plastic because its lighter would not be appealing to me at all. Weight doesn't matter to me and has never been a problem in my gaming with 1/600 scale. And more detail would be nice in the aircraft types already mentioned. And since I have quite a few of the above minis mentioned already I would not be apt to get more from a different manufacturer. Now it would be nice for beginners perhaps or those adding to thier collection. But for myself I really don't need them. So making some of the more rare and neglected types might be good.But how much of a demand would there be for them in order to make a profit? Robert

My Yahoo 1/600th scale Wargaming Group
link

Quality of sculpting will be the deciding factor for me unless cost is out of sight. You have been there before with your space games. Good luck. I will be waiting to see what you produce. I too would like to see some of the "rare and neglected" aircraft especially some of the early jets.

F-101B Voodoo

F-106 Delta Dart

if you please…..

Of course, neither is probably much good for dogfighting, but they were great interceptors in their day.

Sadly, much like Rodney Dangerfield, interceptors get no respect.

The reason for plastics over metal is to enable finer detail, as well as thinner wings and fins. Additionally, the aircraft are to be 3D models derived from our box-miniature illustrations. This should allow models that are a truer representation than what we are used to seeing in 1:600 scale.

As for rare and interesting aircraft, we would love to do so over time. The initial offerings will be indirect support of Birds of Prey. We have plans to make aircraft data cards and hopefully accompanying miniatures for a great number of aircraft, including rare birds like the F4D-1 and F8U-3. The Delta Dart and Voodoo hardly count as rarities and we would love to give them the attention they deserve. We have an aircraft data card for the Dart that we brought to Origins a few years back. It is a fun aircraft to fly and fight!

-- Shaken – out --

At some point, the thinner wings become a liability, rather than a feature, due to their fragility, at least for the end customer, especially if they are made of plastic.

No doubt, thin, brittle wings are a "feature" for the retailer, since they will get to sell replacements more often. ;-)

I can understand the desire to support BOP, but don't forget that there are many other gamers who don't use those rules, at least yet. My guess is they will also purchase more planes than the average BOP player, since simpler rules permit people to field more aircraft in a game.

Would love to see the Voodoo and Delta Dart produced, but I imagine their use of nuke tipped missiles to end the engagements before they really kick off would be frowned upon in most games. Still, they would be great for neutralizing enemy bomber formations.

I'm pulled 2 ways on this. The modeler in me thinks that more detail is AWESOME! The gamer in me wants it to look good in Tablevisionm, and fears that too much detail can end up looking a mess.

…and then there's cost. I can't say that'd I'd buy better detailed minis if they cost more than those that I already buy at that scale.

That said, I'm always happy to have more choices.

We try to package our minis in blisters of multiples of the same plane in a blister, with a blister at $15. USD (One benefit of the economy tanking is that we didn't have to raise our blister prices to $17 USD on January 1st.)

The plastic would be high density material if we got that many orders.

A "wave" of planes would be a group of 8 blisters, each with 2 or 4 copies of the same plane in them at 1:600. There might be exceptions for things like a BUFF. At 1:350, there's be fewer planes per blister, because we want to keep the price point at "Yeah, I'll buy one – and hey, get me a coke and some doritos with the change" level of impulse buy at a store.

One reason to stick with the BoP plane list is that it gives me another goad for Phil and Tony to keep producing planes. :)

Wings and tailfins would still be made thicker to be durable, they just won't be as outrageously thick…

I would go with 1/350.I have the Trumpeter types as
well as Fujimi/Arii 1/400,which are small.1/600 is very popular and appears to closing in on 1/300 for types available.
I think I remember the thread on this.I am glad you have
decided to produce the minis,regardless of scale.

David

PS-Just measured my Fujimi 1/400 F4 Phantom(a little beauty)Just shy of 2 inches.The Fujimi/Arii are long out of print.
Arii has F20s,F23s,and F22s.

"We try to package our minis in blisters of multiples of the same plane in a blister, with a blister at $15. USD USD (One benefit of the economy tanking is that we didn't have to raise our blister prices to $17 USD USD on January 1st.)"

"A "wave" of planes would be a group of 8 blisters, each with 2 or 4 copies of the same plane in them at 1:600."

So you would be getting only one type of aircraft in a blister for $15.00 USD correct? Robert

My Yahoo 1/600th scale Wargaming Group
link

Correct, Robert. You'd be getting 2 or 4 planes in that blister, depending on their cost to produce.

For my two penneth worth,

At $15.00 USD USD a blister $3.50 USD an aircraft (if there is 4) is a bit steep for 1/600th irrespective of detail if made of plastic. Outside of the US that is almost 2.5 euro OR £2.00 GBP sterling per model. Around 3 times the price of similar scale manufacturers (acknowledging quality in metal) you are pushing the VFM envelope IMHO.

These aren't pre-painted as far as I can tell? So, extra weapons sprues; Specific "historic" decal sets for varying nations would be the only way I could see this running at this price.

I take it this is based on expected low volume of sales (as you are not expecting large forces at this scale) to recover the set up costs.

Si

"One of the hazards of choosing a scale is that no matter what scale you go into, there's competition."

This hobby is way too small for true competition – that's why lines need to complement each other. That doesn't mean you can't compete on quality.

And price is pretty much irrelevant. $15 USD for 4 planes is fine if they are high quality, you need them, and you can't get them elsewhere.