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"Age of Honor, Lace Wars Fire & Fury TEST DRIVE!" Topic


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Colonel Bill15 Jun 2009 8:57 a.m. PST

Ready for a Test Drive?

We are rapidly closing on completion of Age of Honor, Fire & Fury for the Lace Wars. We are looking at Fall In 09, only because I'd like to see the economy improve a bit, and I also don't want to compete with Rich H if he releases Regimental Fire & Fury at Historicon.

We have a complete scenario ready for everyone to play, with charts yet, Oudenarde 1708. Just surf over to ageofeagles.com/downloads.htm for the free download. Let me know what you think – pay VERY close attention to the Intiative/Reserve Movement modifiers – and also let me know if you spot any errors. YOU are my final playtest!

Here is how the book is shaping up:

1. You will need AOE to play the game, but I am preparing some substantial discounts if you buy the books bundled. I give my retailers some pretty hefty discounts, so they very well may follow suite.

2. All modifications have been embedded into the scenarios, Unit Data Chart and Quick Reference Sheet. 90% of playing the game is simply matching the new units stats to the QRS die roll modifiers.

3. 15 scenarios, to include Blenheim, Ramillies, Almanza, Malplaquet, Poltava, Fontenoy, Hohenfriedburg, Kolin, Leuthen, Krefeld, Zorndorf, Minden, Kunersdorf, Torgau and Villinghausen.

4. Three pages of Commanding General and Leader Ratings.

5. Seven pages of combat unit characteristics, with three columns of specs for all, one each for the War of Spanish Succession/Great Northern War, the Austrian Succession/Seven Years War and finally the War of Bavarian Succession.

6. Very detailed specs on the Ottomans (I'll be doing Peterwardien as a freebie download).

7. A new Quick Reference Sheet, with larger type and more explanation.

8. A page of blank labels for photocoping.

9 The most current AOE supplement.

10. Full color, semi-gloss covers, coil bound.

Price is to be determined, but will keep you informed.

Look for another freebie scenario, this time from the Seven Years War, prior to Fall In!

Thanks again for all the great support!

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

Personal logo Saber6 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian15 Jun 2009 9:03 a.m. PST

I will not start a new period.
I will not start a new period.
I will not start a new period.
I will not start a new period.

Ohh, shiny…

pzivh43 Supporting Member of TMP15 Jun 2009 12:02 p.m. PST

Bill,

You might want to check with Rich. I don't think F&F Regimental wil make it for HCON---think he's planning for FALL IN! also.

Mike

Colonel Bill15 Jun 2009 1:04 p.m. PST

Yup, understand, it kinda changes every day, but I think Fall In is as late as I want to wait. Thanks.

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

Personal logo Dye4minis Supporting Member of TMP15 Jun 2009 8:48 p.m. PST

Thanks, Bill, for the test drive! Gotta get a copy when they come out! (It's MY period!) 8>)

Best
Tom Dye
GFI

nsolomon9915 Jun 2009 8:58 p.m. PST

Bill,

Good news! My group tried an earlier version of AOE a few years back and we re-fought Kolin and Lobositz with them. We found what we felt were 2 significant problems and moved onto other rules. I'm wondering if anything has changed. We found that the system rewarded a General for putting all his troops "in the shop window" from Turn 1 and holding nothing back in Reserve which didn't feel right to us. We also found at Kolin that every Austrian Battery on the Kreckor Hill could effectively co-ordinate and concentrate fire on selected Prussian units as they advanced and blow them away with massed fire. Again didn't really feel like SYW Artillery Doctrine to us.

Either of these things changed?

Nick

PS. Agreed, we could work out House Rules around these things but it was easier to move on to another System.

Colonel Bill16 Jun 2009 6:57 a.m. PST

Nick,

As regards artillery, let me check on the specifics of that battle before I answer as this is the first time this problem has surfaced. There are NO Grand Batteries in AOH.

As regards reserves, yes and no, primarily because I don't think it was very common to keep and deploy reserves during the Lace Wars as they did during the Napoleonic era.

For Reserve Movement, the DRM bonus for 1st turn or previous turn successful Reserve Movement is +6 (AOE +4), but now you have to roll a 10+ to activate (AOE 7+). First turn with Frederick, no problem as his personal rating is a +3. However, the DRM bonus for failed Reserve Movement last turn is now +1 (AOE +1), two turns +3 (AOE +2), three turns +5 (AOE +3).

Here I still want to make it very difficult to use and activate reserves, far more difficult than in AOE, but now activation should occur by the third attempt whereas previously it could take forever. Why this point of view? This partial quote from page 55 of Martin Van Crefeld's book Command in War sums it up (quote):

"Finally, Frederick the Great's battles were always offensive and always carefully thought in advance, requiring precise, machinelike movements and highly trained, strictly disciplined troops to carry them out. The king as a rule would ride out ahead of the approaching army, observe the enemy at close quarters, and then assign each unit its direction as it passed by.

FROM THIS POINT ON THE MACHINE WAS SUPPOSED TO FUNCTION AUTOMATICALLY.

At times it did so: at Leuthen in 1757 the movements went off like clockwork. In others, such as Zorndorf in 1758, units – either because of the terrain or because they met with unexpected resistance – strayed from their assigned positions in the line and got in each other's way or else allowed gaps to open . . .

On the whole and despite some spectacular triumphs at Leuthen or Rossbach – the latter won by Seydlitz almost single- handedly – the system worked only moderately well and produced as many defeats as victories. Thus Frederick's system of tactical command, one of the earliest in which a commander attempted continuous control of the whole army, and relying for this purpose on as robotlike a body of troops as ever has been put into the field, cannot be called an unqualified success even when wielded by the inventor's masterly hands. In those of his less competent successors it led directly to disaster."

This approach may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I think its likely that putting all the troops in the shop window turn one, is pretty close to 18th Century reality. I think to do otherwise would be to bless Frederick, Daun, Saxe et all with Napoleonic command functionality.

Nevertheless, I have made it somewhat easier to activate reserves, though not before the third attempt.

Try Oudenarde and let me know what you think.

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

Happy Wanderer18 Jun 2009 3:34 a.m. PST

Hi Bill,

IIRC that same game generated the unusual circumstance of the Prussian troops getting caught in a traffic jam down the Kaiser Strasse as well. As they did not deploy across the table, but down its length, the command system seemed to inhibit the historical deployment which the Prussian used.

Thoughts?


Cheers


Happy Wanderer

Colonel Bill18 Jun 2009 8:58 a.m. PST

Happy,

That issue was caused by the 2 bns of Karlstaedter Grenz in Chotzemitz, within 18 inches of the Kaiserstrasse, forcing Tactical Movement on the Prussians. The best way to fix this is simply start the Prussians deployed, which might make for a better game is some respects.

Otherwise, however, I wonder if the game isn't working the way its supposed to. This passage about Kolin is from the kronoskaf.com SYW Wikipedia, about 2:00 pm (quote):

"Meanwhile on the right wing, a few km westward, Mannstein's troops were continuously harassed by Grenzer musketry fire during their advance on the highway. Mannstein ordered the second battalion of Regiment Bornstedt to face right and attack these Grenzer light troops who fled at once but came back with reinforcements. These skirmishes fatally delayed Bornstedt and proved ruinous. For now Regiment Bornstedt blocked the way to those following him who successively fell on to support Mannstein. Now, the whole right wing from Regiment Bornstedt westward was engaged in fighting against the Austrians precisely at a place that Frederick had considered too strong a position to be attacked frontally."

The proverbial one turn delay when troops back up due to the lead unit moving from Reserve to Tactical Zones is supposed to represent stuff like this. This is why Reserve Movement comes prior to Tactical. Given Zeiten will outdistance the infantry following him by quite a bit before hitting Tactical mode, I wonder if the traffic problems caused are actually enough this time around?

What do you think?

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

lapatrie8818 Jun 2009 10:41 a.m. PST

Bill, Nick --

First, it is very good to see AOH going to publication, since the pre-release version looked so interesting. Thank you also for posting in the Yahoo SYW group.

Second, this is not a criticism of AOH or any other set of rules, but only following up on the topic of deploying with reserves in the mid-18th century. It seems there was a widespread doctrine of deploying a second line something more than musket range behind the first main line. Also, the French army (in SYW) appears to have organized an official advanced guard and reserve corps separate from the first and second line. The second line is at least a tactical reserve to units in the first line.

Are you willing to enlarge on the discussion of how any game rules might reinforce deployment of a tactical reserve, whether it is a mobile corps of troops as Bill mentions above, or a deployed reserve like the second line. Is it appropriate for the rules to enforce the doctrine on the players, or would it be enough if there are provisions in the rules that reward appropriate deployment with advantages in combat? Can scenario design, or sizing the armies to fit the game table layout, better address this question than writing restrictive rules?

Colonel Bill18 Jun 2009 11:55 a.m. PST

I think so, yes. I have access to a number of sources to include Kriege Friedrich des Grossen, and have studied the various "Schlacht Ordnung" extensively. Generally – and yes, I know there were exceptions – it seems the standard deployment was in two lines, infantry in the center, cavalry on both wings. Given the closeness of the second line to the first, I almost hesitate to call it a reserve vice a supporting Echelon, which I believe is the word the German General Staff used for it in Kriege. If something marked Reserve is present, its usually very small and close to the front. For example I believe at Kolin, Moritz von Dessau had 1st Bn Leibgarde as the entire infantry reserve. This tells me the commander is looking for a small just in case unit to put out a fire.

I look at Napoleon's use of large reserves (as in the 30,000 man arena), kept distant from the front, to deliver the hammer blow, as more of a Grand Tactical asset rarely used in the SYW, likely due to the infancy of command and control (see van Crefeld above).

In AOH, like AOE, armies need to get within 18 inches (2100 yards) before they can roll on the Tactical March Table, which is relatively easy as regards moving brigades. Keeping units outside 18 inches so you can make a direct, clutter free, bee line to exploit a hole just opened up by von Seydlitz's cavalry can be done, but the table is rigged to take three half hour turns to get folks moving, even for Frederick.

The idea is to discourage having a French Imperial Guard as part of Broglie's force and have that supporting line within 300 or so yards of the first.

That said, a lot of players find it difficult assume an 18th Century mindset, and thus movement that works well today, doesn't in the game. The big example I always note is a long column of troops coming in from the rear of the battlefield. The lead unit moves into Tactical range, and thus delays the troops behind him due to the sequence of play. When I did the same movement, I marched up and before I hit the Tactical Zone, had the head of the column wheel right and move with everyone following behind. Then when all brigades were in position, the entire long column faced to the left, and moved forward, entering Tactical play simultaneously. I thought my comrades were going to have a cow, said they never thought of doing it that way.

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

nsolomon9919 Jun 2009 5:39 a.m. PST

lapatrie88 – We simply found that our planned historical re-fights of Lobositz & Kolin (historically two finely balanced battles where results could've gone either way) came out anything but historically. I concede the fault may well have lain with our dice rolling but we usually like to find ourselves getting similar to historical outcomes if each commander essentially follows the battle plan of their historical counterparts.

Personal opinion of course – others mileage may vary. Hope they sell well for Bill.

Colonel Bill19 Jun 2009 8:12 a.m. PST

Also, we have done a lot of retooling since then,so you may want to try a refight using the new tables we have included with the Oudenarde scenario. Playtesting after all, is supposed to find glitches and the like.

Surprisingly, Iain Stanford, expert on the WSS era, thought Ramillies was dead on the money. I don't think I've ever done Lobositz, but I thought one of the big issues with Kolin was that things did not go as planned?

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

lapatrie8822 Jun 2009 5:47 a.m. PST

Nick --

More than likely I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. In your game test, when you made an early commitment of all your troops, were they deployed in 2 lines or echelons as Bill describes above, or were the armies deployed in a single line to maximize frontage? I've been criticized (and thrashed!) in games where I've deployed in depth (to honor the historical tactics, I hope, but also I'm anticipating having to deal with some morale failure opening a hole in the first line), while the opposing side gains an overlap on one or both flanks. (OK, a first-rate commander would deal with that and not complain about the rules!). There are rules sets that seem to make combat & morale so abstract that there may be no playing advantage to deploying with a second line, let alone a proper mobile reserve as Bill defines it.

Has anyone else had that experience?

However, if the historical battle was a closely balanced battle, it might be a good thing (as a game) for the rules to allow the other side to win depending on the viscissitudes of chance.

Colonel Bill22 Jun 2009 8:38 a.m. PST

lapatrie,

I think Nick is talking about units in the game's Reserve Zone, in that in AOH they are very difficult to activate and move. Here I and Nick may have to agree to disagree as obviously our perspectives on how war was fought back then may well be different.

As regards the second, supporting line, I think AOH promotes such because of the + 1 DRM in melee for having a supporting line, which can be a second brigade supporting another.

Also, just FYI, the traffic jam issue Nick mentioned may well be solved by our now making the Facing to the Flank change mandatory, and also by improved scenario design. If you look at Oudenarde you will notice in many cases forces coming on the board are staggered. In other words, there is a turn between when force A enters the board, and when force B does so following behind. This will mitigate, though not completely alleviate the problem, and this is how I designed it.

Remember the old AOH we had posted is several years old and has not been updated until recently. However, anything based on F&F by definition is chaos oriented. If your perspective of Lace Warfare is that it was more choreographed and predictable, you likely will NOT like AOH and should probably try another rules system.

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

lapatrie8822 Jun 2009 9:28 a.m. PST

Bill --

Thank you for the additional explanation. It does seem to make sense, and inhibit "Napoleonic" grand tactics, for your rules to restrict movement of a mobile reserve. You note above that Frederick would be given an advantage in attempting such maneuvers, which seems appropriate. IMO, these should reinforce the feel of the period, and are good things.

I'll be giving AOH a closer look, thanks!

--Matt

Bob and Cleo25 Jun 2012 9:13 a.m. PST

Will your system cover the exploits of Prinz Eugen in Italy and against the Ottomans, or just in coordination with Marlborough? Interested in the period. We will give your rules a closer look since being impressed with them at the Weekend.
--Bob & Cleo

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