"Russian Cavalry Guidons ?" Topic

Did Russian Cavalry carry a Guidon ?
I'm looking for a flag for my Uhlans and Dragoons.

I know the Dragoons did, but am sure that the Uhlans did not. AB do not do a Guidon Bearer, OG do/did and I had to make a Guidon for him whereas Dragoon Guidons are available,

Tally Ho!

Kurassiers & Dragoon Regiments bore standards, with similar styles but unique colouring, based on the unit's age, facing distinctions, etc. Light line cavalry--hussars, uhlans, mounted jägers--left their flags at their depots. Uhlans and hussars who carried lances, generally had coloured 'pennons' on them, as illustrated in some of these links: link ; and link .

I believe that one regiment of Hussars had the unique distinction of carrying a flag; Pavlograd? Petrograd?

I have the old glory figures and the Uhlans have standard bearer so what flag would you use ?

As indicated above, the Uhlans at this period did not carry standards ('guidons' are specifically the swallow tailed flags often carried by Dragoons of other armies, but not used by Napoleonic Russian regular cavalry), so the OG figs are inaccurate in this respect.
You could then convert the standard bearer figure into an ordinary trooper by adding a lance. Or, if you do want to use a standard, give him one of the generic 1803 pattern white or green standards shown in the OG Russian cavalry standards sheet. Its not accurate but prob better than any alternative.

Figures of Russian Napoleonic light cavalry with standards are not necessarily inaccurate. It is a matter of which unit is being modeled and when.

In addition to the Pavlograd Hussars, which had received standards of St. George for their actions in 1805, both the Life Guard Uhlans and Life Guard Hussars received standards of St. George for their exploits in 1812 and 1813, respectively.

Allen

AB does make standard bearers for both Russian kurasiers and dragoons for 1805-1811 and 1812-1815. Fighting 15s carriers "Flags for AB" that have the standards for both Russian kurassiers and dragoons, as well as all the Russian infantry. The "Flags for AB" Russian infantry flags also have 4 flags per regiment (one white and three colored flags). If I recall the note on the flag sheets correctly, the Russian flags are the ones thought to be carried in 1812. I have not seen the kurassier and dragoon flags, but I have been very pleased with the Russian infantry flags. I do plan to order more infantry flags and get some flags for my kurassiers. Kurassier figures are on hand, but not yet painted.

I have been meaning to post some pictures, but have to get them taken first.

If it's 15mm figures, wait for the following link to load link then search down to the Russian flags, and have a look at the 'Dragoon' flags there . . . possibly something of use?

Its true that the Pavlograd Hussars received a standard, and so too did the Lifeguard Hussars and Uhlans, although in the latter case, whilst referencing their exploits during 1812-3, they were actually only issued to those units IIRC after the wars, for ceremonial display.
The point is that no Napoleonic Russian Hussar or Uhlan unit carried standards on campaign or in combat.

"…they were actually only issued to those units IIRC after the wars…"

Your IIRC needs fine-tuning. Check the dates of issue, please for the Guard regiments.

"The point is that no Napoleonic Russian Hussar or Uhlan unit carried standards on campaign or in combat."

That is your opinion.

It is my opinion also.

Allen,
Always happy to have my IIRC fine tuned- perhaps you can help me on this?

My Laurence Spring translation of Viskatov's volume on flags 1801-25 is out of reach for a few weeks. I'm pretty sure though that Visk gives the exact dates dates the Guard Hussar and Uhlan standards were authorised and the dates they were actually issued.

If you're able to provide those dates, I'll be obliged to you. If not I'll check it when I get to the volume and get back to you.

Alternatively- NSN, Steven Smith, or one of the other authorities on Russian matters – could you help perhaps?

I'd also be grateful for any guidance on which occasions Russian Hussars and Uhlans carried standards in battle (or any other activity which might be wargamed). If so I'll get to work on a few AB conversions ASAP.

Oh boy…okay the guidon had a colored cross on a metal halo and metal fringe. As field/cross/metal they were:

L.G. Cossack 2 crimson/white/silver 1 white/crimson/gold
1st Chuguyev Cossack 4 azure/red/gold 1 white/red/gold
2d Chuguyev Cossack 4 green/red/silver 1 white/red/silver
Lithuania-Tatar 9 azure/gold/gold (fringe silver) 1 white/gold/gold (fringe silver)
Polish 4 red/red/gold 1 white/red/gold

The Lithuania-Tatar split and each were later expanded to 10 squadrons, the Chuguyev merged as Lancers, and the Polish expanded to 10.

The Lithuania-Tatar had the pattern with the cross/halo and eagle.

See picture

The Pavlograd H. had a St. George cavalry standard since 1807, and the Sumy received on after the fall of Paris.

Typically light cavalry was chary with their standards, but I wouldn't let it stop you;-)

Sorry NSN, maybe my post was unclear.

My question was actually whether you or anyone else had details of the dates when St George standards were authorised and then issued to the LG Hussar and Uhlan Regts in recognition of their services in 1812-13. I had thought they weren't issued till after the war. I have these details in Spring's translation of Visk's 1801-25 flag volume, but not to hand- and wondered if you or others had that info more readily available.

Still though your post above does raise a further question: what did the various cossack, tatar and Polish light horse units do with their old guidons when converted to Uhlan status? I presume they got rid of them, either handing them into HQ or depositing them in churches, etc; and that once they became regular Uhlans did not carry (and indeed even possess at depot etc) flags of any kind until after the war when regular cavalry pattern ones were finally issued to them. I've certainly never heard of those regiments keeping their former flags- on or off the battlefield.

Any info on either point would be interesting.

You are correct, except for the Pavlograd (Nov. 27, 1807) the other St. George's were issued afterwards. However, the OP asked about guidons.

If Nev doesn't provide the dates, I will later today or tomorrow morning. I am away at the moment.

I have done part of my first unit, I just made my own Guidon.

picture

The L.G. Lancers and Hussars (and the rest of the L.G. cavalry except for the Cossacks) were authorized 1806 St. George standards in 1813, but never received them.

Instead on Feb. 16th 1817 they received an 1814 pattern St. George standard.

NSN, many thanks for the detailed info as always, I was sure that was the situation with the LG regiments. Also Steven for undertaking to check.
Allen, 1817 is after the Napoleonic wars ended by most definitions- so I'm hopeful therefore that my IIRC faculties will last through till their next annual service without too much fine tuning.
Keith, V nice painting on the Uhlans, they look excellent.