"Anybody gaming the Russo-Turkish War of 1787 - 1792?" Topic

Hi,

Am I the only one fascinated with this particular war?

I'm busy finishing my Russian army and still working my Ottoman army.

I'm playing in 15mm scale.
Russians are from Falcon UK's line with the cool Potemkin helmet.
Ottomans are a mix of Essex, Falcon UK, Minifigs, etc.

Anybody seen a good source for reading deaper on this subject?

Cheers!
Eric Burgess

Eric,

Didn't Nafziger propose/publish an account of this war from Russian sources or am I thinking of the 1806 war? I've purchased Russians and Ottomans for the period [still haven't painted all the Ottomans yet – keep on getting sidetracked].

Didn't you post pics of a game on the Charlotte Garrison website a few years back?

All the best from Poland,

Eric Starnes [Swampking]

Am I the only one fascinated with this particular war?

Tell us more, and I'm sure there will be more "recruits"

Get the Perrys to make figures, and it will shoot to #1 in popularity.

"The Art of Victory" by Philip Longworth is a bio of Suvorov, and contains relavent material, as does Duffy's "Russia's Military Way to the West."

Swampking,
The account from Nafziger is of the 1806-1812 war. It was originally prepared for one of the czars in the 1840s. Not sure on the date it was originally published as mine is currently in storage.
BWW

A long time ago I bought 2 painted 10mm armies for the 1806-1812 war. I haven't ever played with them though.

Brian,

Thouht as much. Thanks for reminding me. When I was in St. Petersburg, there was an exhibition at the Suvorov museum on the war – good stuff! I've got an article on Suvorov from 'Military History Quarterly' lying around here somewhere. Also, I believe there's an old biography on 'Generalissmo Suvorov' on the net that I ran across. Too bad there aren't any Turkish sources for the war.

SK

Try running the topic on "Google Books" and see what turns up.

Hi folks! Thanks for all the replies!

The main problem I'm running into is spelling. Some of the words are French, some are Russian, and some have been anglo-sized.

For instance, Souvorov or Suvorov. I just need to start with a list of battles and Bing\Google from there.

I may try to find some of the books mentioned in the library as I just need small amounts of information.

Swampking! Yes, that was me that posted those photos years ago. Tomorrow night we are fighting a Russian assault against Turkish earthworks. Should be a bloody affair. I'll try to snap some photos of the game.

Eric
PS – Running games is great as it makes you finish your projects!

While Im not sure if it goes back as far as your war, Caucasian Battles by Muratoff might have details in it? I own the book but am not home right now.
Its a great read though with lots of the wars between the Russians and Turks, good maps and OOBs. Concentrates on the military side of things, not diplomacy.

I think i have that book Mike! Need to find it!

Eric

Check out this fellow's Blog:

link

Oops. Wrong Russo-Turkish affair. My bad.

There is a great account of Russian sieges vs Turks in Christopher Duffy's "The fortress in the age of Vauban and Frederick the Great…"
I have a ton of lit on the period- but all in Russian, oops!

BTW- what, no Austrians?

Oh, the Austrians were involved, but I don't have any Austrian figures for that period.

Sergeis, please translate all the Russian sources for me … please. ;-)

Thanks on the Duffy book idea.

Eric

Sergeis,

Any chance you could send a list of important battles in this war? I'm having trouble just finding a good list of battles, generals, force size, etc.

Eric

Take a look at Baddeley's "Russian Conquest of the Caucasus" chapter 3. It is available on Google Books.

link

Thanks,
Andrew

MANY thanks Andrew!!! Can't wait to read this one!

Russian conquest of Caucasus??? What does that has to do with war of 1787-91?

Ok, here is a synopsis of the events.
Russo-Turkish war of 1787-91
Caused by the plans of Turkey, demanding the return of Crimea, acknowledgment by Russia of Georgia as a vassal Turkish state, demands to inspect Russian merchant vessels when passing through the straights.Russia refused the ultimatum. Turkey declared war on Russia and put in the field a powerful army and fleet- 200000 men, 19 ships of the line, 16 frigates,5 bombardier corvettes. Russians deployed 2 armies- Ekaterinoslavskaya army(82000 men- commander gen-fieldmarshall G.A. Potemkin) and Ukrainskaya army(37000 men, commander gen-fieldmarshall P.A. Roumyantsev), Krumskiy and Kubanskiy Corps, Black sea fleet( 24 ships- commander adm M. E. Voinovich). 21 Aug 1787 part of Turkish fleet attacked Russian patrol ships near Kinburn. At night on 14 Sept Turks landed 700 men on Kinburn peninsula, but were defeated by Russian troops. 1st Oct Turkish dessant
( 5000 men) landed near Kinburn under cover of artillery fire, but was completely destroyed by counter attack of A.V. Suvorov's Corps. In the beginning of 1788 Austria joined the war on the side of Russia, sending a 26000 corps under Prince Koburg to Moldavia. During the campaign fortresses of Khotin and Ochakov were assaulted and taken, with the help of the Russian fleet in the latter.
In campaign of 1789 Ukrainian army, later United Southern army under Potemkin besieged Benderi and other fortresses in Bessarabia. 21 July (1Aug) 1789 near Fokshani- Russian detachment ( 5000 men under Suvorov) and Austrian corps (12000 men under Koburg) defeated 30000 corps under Osman-pasha. On 11(22) Sept Russian and and Austrian army under Suvorov ( 25000 men) defeated 100000 men army of Grand Vizier Yussouf-pasha on the river Rymnik. However Potemkin did not used these victories to advance towards Danube, but was satisfied with taking of fortresses Benderi, Khadzhibey ( now Odessa) and Akkerman. On Black and Mediterranean Russian privateer vessels were active on Turkish communications and supply lines. In campaign of 1790 Potemkin concentrated main forces on fortress sieges instead of trying to defeat Turkish army in open battle.
Turkish army concentrated on delivering main thrust on Caucasus shore of Black sea, sending 40000 men army under Batal Pasha towards Anapa fortress to advance towards Cuban and prepare landings in Crimea. Russian Black sea fleet under rear adm F.F. Ushakov ( from March 1790)defeated Turkish fleet in series of battles near Synop, in Kerch straights and near island of Tendra(28-29 Aug (8-9 Sept)1790). With the help of the fleet Russian Southern army took fortresses of Kiliya, Toulcha and Isakcha. Batal- pasha's corps was defeated, while advancing on Kabarda.In September Austria concluded a separate peace treaty with Turkey which complicated Russian situation. Despite that Russians began advance to Danube. 11(22) December 1790 Russian army under Suvorov assaulted and took strong Turkish fortress of Izmail.4(15) June Russians Under M.I. Kutuzov forced the Danube and defeated 23000 men strong Turkish corps near Babadag. Main forces of Russian army under A.I. Repnin defeated Turkish army at the battle of Machyn-28 June (9 July). On Western Caucasus gen I.V. Gudovich corps took Anapa on 22June (3 July). Russian fleet under F.F. Ushakov defeated Turkish fleet near Kaliakriya 31July (11Aug). Turkey signed Yassy peace treaty in 1791.

Would you like some info on Russo Turkish wars of 1676-81,
1686-1700, 1710-13, 1735-39, 1768-74, 1806-12, 1828-29, 1853-56, 1877-1878…? :-)

Any war between Russia and Turkey in 18th and 19th centuries inevitably involved some actions in the Caucasus. If you are building Rissian and Ottoman armies, why not add a Persian one? Russia and Persia also fought.
Andrew

Thanks Sergeis!! Great information and I appreciate your time.

Andrew, sorry no Persians. It is going to be hard enough to complete me Russian and ottoman armies.

Thanks to everybody! Great group of people!

Hi Sergei,

Sory to hijack this topic slightly but if you are a member of the Yahoo Lace Wars forum there's a discussion about an unidentified painting which you may be able to help with; link

(If you are not a member, perhaps I can send you details via email?)

The painting seems likely to be of a battle from one of the 18th century Russo-Turkish Wars but without more detail about the battles it's very difficult to pin it down precisely.

David
nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.com

Andrew,

Got any references for the Persians? Uniform info in particular!

Sergeis,
Any info you could provide on the 1768-1774 war would be helpful!

Thanks,
SK

@ NBATemplate- nope, I am not a Lace Wars member- you can send me email at smsharenko@fctvplus.net
@ Swampking- what info on 1768-74 war you are interested in?
@ DinOfBattle2- I would be very cautious reading any Western source on Russian warfare. After I recommended you Duffy's book I realized that I should have pointed out that most of his chapter on Russo-Turkish wars has to be taken with large grain of salt. He is using some very dubious accounts of some less that honest Brits ( surprise!) I do not think his book on sieges has a single biblio note on any Russian or Turkish source.
Glaring example is his account ( off some dimwitted Brit) that during storming of Izmail dismounted cossacks had a particular tough time- being armed with only lances ( sic!) and Turks slashing at those lances turned those in useless stumps of wood. Arriving Suvorov saved the day (!)
Cossack lances had runners pass the end of the tube- to prevent exactly that happening. Indeed they had shortened lances for the assault, but also their sabers- of course.
How did Suvorov saved the lances from being slashed is a mystery. What likely happened was that cossacks with very little experience of fighting dismounted in fortress assault and had indeed a very hard time vs Turks. Suvorov must have rallied them upon arrival.

Sergeis,

Any orders of battle or descriptions of battles would be great. You can email me at dobretigger@email.com instead of posting a lengthy reply if you wish.

Thanks,

Eric

Thanks, Sergei. Have sent you an email.

David
nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.com

Swampking,
Not much on the Persians of this period. I've used the DBR army lists and George Gush's "Renaissance Armnies" as sources. That covers mostly the 16th and 17th centuries. Using these as a base, I also looked at the Persin army of the mid-nineteenth century, when Britain conducted a bried invasion of Persia. Donalds Featherstones' "Victoria's Enemies" has a chapter on the Persians. Overall the army had a small corp of artillery and european-trained infantry. They were uniformed but I haven't found info for the 18th century. The bulk of the army was still a cavalry force; mostly light cavalry-type. You may also want to look at the Mamluke and Ottoman armies of the 18th and nineteenth century for light cavalry figures. One book I'd like to read, but I haven't gotten to yet is: The Sword of Persia: Nader Shah, from Tribal Warrior to Conquering Tyrant" by Michael Axworthy. This alos looks interesting:
link

Thanks,
Andrew

Segies,

Since my Russian and Turkish language skills are null what is a poor soul like me to do?

Thanks for being generous with your time and knowledge!
Eric Burgess

Yep, contemporary Turkish might be tough- since I believe it was Arabic.
I will gladly help as much as I can- either here or email me on above mentioned address. I do not think there is much in Western sources on Russo-Turkish wars anyway.
Sergei Sharenko

Hello

I am very interested in doing the Russians in the Potemkin Uniform. Have you a website for Falcon as I do not seem to be able to find them on the web.

Broglie

Broglie,

It's

falconfigures.com

Kai seems to be up and running full force now. The catalog is up as is the pricing – $4 USD USD for a pack of 8 inf./4 cav.

Hope this helps,

SK

Thanks SK.

Broglie, this is the only company that sells them so you are kinda stuck with pricing, but Kia may give you a discount for a large purchase.

I love the figures!
Eric

Many thanks to you both and apologies for the delay in replying. I will check the website now

Regards

Broglie,

The infantry figs are good, as is the artillery [though the rammer is a little long on the ramming figure]. The cavalry are in the typical FF style, with the sword arm moulded to the side of the horses neck.

When I contracted out this line [the 1788 Russo-Swedish War], I wanted the cavalry sword arm to be sculpted free but alas, it didn't happen. The figures are fairly easy to paint though and the detail is clear with no awkward poses.

Thanks Swampkimg

Does that mean that you are the original sculptor?

I had a look at the website and I see that I cannot pay by credit card or Paypal which is a bummer.

They are in VA (Virginia??)and I am in Belgium. I will send them an e-mail and see what can be done.

Regards

Nope – I'm not that talented. I paid for the line when the Quartermaster was in Canada back in the late '90s. Yep, Kai is located in Virginia.

The Russian line is complete [except for light cavalry and cossacks]. The Russian officers should be in the bicorn/tricorn, not the helmet but that's a minor quibble. I'm more proud of the Swedes and '92/94 Poles, as they're truly great figures. The original sculptor did a really great job on them but the Russians do have a certain charm.

I have ordered one packet of each and I paid by Paypal. I e-mailed Kai and the response and service was top rate. The figures are on their way to me now.
Thanks for all your help.
I am off now to find a set of rules.