"Am I cheating? " Topic

Well this was an odd week. Normally, I really don't like to rant, but this really chapped my hide…

I went to a 'local' game store in Sacramento. I wanted to get a game of WH40k in and brought my Space Marine army with me. For reference, I have not played 40k since 2nd ed, and 95% of my figs are from the Rouge Trader era, BUT I have re-grouped them so they are compliant with the new 5th ed army lists.

I find a guy to play against, maybe in his late 20's, (who is playing Chaos)and we start to set up. Pick missions. Figure out the table sides, and get the figs out and deploy them. No problems so far.

Not to get into the tactics of the game, he makes a few bad moves/choices/dice rolls and resulting in a bad first turn (I have had worse first turns in the past, but his army should be salvageable enough to make a good game out of it). Bummer, but let the dice fall where they may. Its part of the game. I try to keep it a friendly game but he is having none of that!

He gets on a might arse-edness, and starts ranting that I am using a cheating army and has taken away the spirit of the game. (Not quietly mind you, but in a LOUD voice) Why is that, I ask. Well for starters, he says:

1) The Space Marine figures that I am using (Rouge Trader) are smaller than current figs.
2) Claims that since he does not recognize them as GW figs, they should be used in the game. (please remember almost all of them are old Rouge Trader figs)
3) The old style Rhinos cannot get ten troops in there, so therefore they should not be allowed.
4) I am using old Rouge Trader Speeders (not as troop transports mind you, but as floating weapons platforms), which are considerably smaller than the new counterparts.

and my personal favorite…

5)I have all of my figs on fender washers and not slotta bases.

"WHAT?" I ask. He says since the troops and the vehicles are smaller (and in his mind – not actual GW figs), and that I am removing the slotta bases that makes them 1/8 of an inch shorter, I am taking blatant advantage of the 'true line of sight' rules. And that he was a much better player because he is not taking a 'cheaters' view of the game.

Well, I gotta say that I always have hated slotta bases, and have been using fender washers since 1990. So these comments really started to chaff my hide.

Now please remember, that this was to be a fun pick up game at the game store, not some sort of Grand Tournament bunk.

He continues to rant for about 15 min about how this kinda stuff would not be tolerated in the GTs that he as been to, blah blah blah, and even some of the other players from other tables started to come over to see that the hub-bub was about. I guess this guy is known about this game shop, and some players start to agree with him ( I am not sure if it is that they ACTUALLY do agree with him, or that he is browbeating them into agreeing with him). But to be fair, there were a few players who did side with me, as I am doing nothing wrong and all my figs are GW and non-slotta based troops are acceptable.

I try to suggest that we just get back to the game, but then he calls me a 'cheat' again and that to continue with the game would make a mockery of the integrity of the rules (which is a laugh to begin with as its a Games Workshop ruleset…). He goes as far as saying that he will not play against a 'cheater' anyway. At that point, I have had enough. I pack up my stuff and leave during turn two. Screw this guy and the store to boot for letting this arse-hole in here!

On the drive home (and I have been stewing about it fer several days now), it got me thinking…

Am I cheating? Am I cheating for not using slotta bases? For using outdated figs?

Or is this guy just making it all up to cover some of his "game store cred" for some bad decisions in the game?

Which also brings up another question. Do I have to use 'official' GW figs for my games? If the figs are obvious that they represent a certain for type of troops, does it matter? ( I am talking about swapping out Pig Iron troops for other IG figs. They look similar, they look like they have las-guns, etc…) Can Players do that? I am not talking about using orks as a Space Marine tactical squad…

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

For 'rouge', substitute 'rogue' throughout.

Unless you're French…

On the drive home (and I have been stewing about it fer several days now), it got me thinking…

Am I cheating? Am I cheating for not using slotta bases? For using outdated figs?

Another good reason for avoiding the Evil Empire. Good God, that theory might have some (little) credence in historical gaming, but in fantasy/sci fi? Come on.

Your not cheating

I think the real problem is that you're still having anything to do Games Workshop products ;oP

Seriously though this person sounds like he forgot that this hobby is about playing with little toy men.

Why didn't you punch him in the nose?

Unless you are playing in a "sanctioned" GW tournament, you can play with what you want.
GW also "allows" ANY GW figures to be used, and from any edition or generation.
In my opinion, most new GW figures are ugly as sin. I much prefer 5th ed Fantasy Orcs and goblins, for one thing.

As for fender washers, the LOSER needs to get a life. Oh, wait, he already has a life. He is a whiny sore loser, with fellow loser disciples.

Just for laughs, call the store manager and tell hm why you will never shop there. However, since you ae playing with Rogue Trader figures, you probably haven't bought anything there recently anyway.

Open rectum. Insert claymore. Detonate. Repeat as needed or he decides to take up a new hobby.

This is why I've always said good games depend on the guys around the table, NOT the rules, the figs, the terrain, the paint job, or good dice rolling.

Holy crap. Sounds like the guy was an . I use to play loads of pick up games at my local GW store and there's always someone who thinks it is more important to win than have fun, after a while you learn to avoid them.

Having said that I've had the odd game where the dice seem to desert you and I've got pretty fed up with it but I wouldn't direct that against my opponent.

Really if the best he can come up with is your figures are to small he really is an idiot.

Sounds like a bad loser me

Thats what you get when you play against 20-somethings with the IQ of a burrito!

And for the record: no, you did not cheat.

Also, email the store owner the URL for this thread.

Better yet: name the store. There are more than a couple of Sacramento TMPers; I'm sure they'd enjoy the opportunity to express an opinion to the store owner.

Allen

Why didn't you punch him in the nose?

There is a new race of spoilt brats who have never been taught that actions have consequences. They seem to think that life is like the internet, and they can treat their fellows as NPCs in their own little RPG.

I know I'm sarcastic, acerbic and downright snide on here, but if I tried to live my real life like that I'd be in prison, or hospital, or both. It's easier with pixels.

Saying that, I'd have been inclined to deck him too :)

You're not cheating. I just love it when the loosing player goes into rant mode. This is one of the best examples I've read in a while – usually they just try to hide their poor tactics by blaming bad dice rolls.

I usually ask – "Would you like any cheese to go with that whine?" But then again, I'm getting old! :-)

I would not see this as cheating at all. They were GW figures and still legal even for Tourney play. The bases should not matter at all. If he had really been upset about the things he was shouting about, it would have happened as soon as you set up. Instead, it was all the result of him realizing that it was likely he was going to lose to some old timer and he could not handle it. That was the reason for the cheating rant. All in all, you did the right thing to leave the children playing with their toys and go find a worthy opponent that understand how to play a game and have fun.

Jeff

I'm with the other malcontents advocating violence.
I hope this isn't what "came up" causing us to postpone an evening at The Shady Lady.

As you go through life you will meet many sad gits…

Just rise above it….

Cheating for using old figures ? Get real. And don't stress over the washers…the really old GW figures had bases (ah those happy carefree days pre-slotta bases)….

In the same situation I think I would have passed out from laughing too hard.

Last time I played some pick up games the rest of the club was queing up to play me (it was a WH40K in 40 minutes mini-tournie) in order to get the easy win. It was quite fun, and I enjoyed just about getting a draw in the last game.

Summary – no, you are not cheating, it was suppossed to be a fun game anyway. Don't know if you should punish the shop as I don't know how the tables allocation system works (is it a shop club ? TUrn up and play ?). But then again you probably don't need to see this guy again so if you can shop elsewhere….

I would have asked him if the new rules included a "whining your opponent to death" phase and wished him a good day.

richarDMB,

The only thing you did wrong was that you stayed far too long and took too much of his garbage. I likely would have labeled him a part of the male anatomy right to his face before I left.

I applaud you for not using slotta bases btw. I think they make the figure look silly. Washers are a much better solution to basing skirmish figures. They keep the figure close to the mat and look a bit more natural.

John

PS. It sounds like he started pulling that crap when he saw that his game was heading downhill real quick.

To avoid s there's always solo gaming.

I commend you on keeping your temper and remaining civil. It helps the world be a better place by the end of the day….

No, Skrap. It was earlier in the week. What The Shady Lady got postponed for was The Love of My Life went horseback riding. Posting is…hot…

I had to work late this week (and kid free this week to boot), I brought my army down for a 'fun' pick-up game. My mistake.

And I only cheat in your games, Skrap! Tell me again why I don't just cross over to VSF again?

Again, ya'll, its something that really got my goat, so thanks for letting me rant…

I have a dictum… "Play for the love of the game", its not all about winning, its all about playing the game…

I don't think its cool to 'flame war' the store. They cannot held accountable for idiots who play in the back room.

Bottomline- You two were playing from different sets of expectations. So you two weren't playing the same game. I've still got my old RT stuff but I won't be bringing it down to a store for a 5th Ed. game unless I know who I'm playing.

Other more generic comments:
First- "True line of sight" rules are from the start a bad idea for miniature games played with dynamic figures. We used to joke about having all kneeling armies in skirmish games that use percentage portion of the model in cover.

Second- In a game played with blast radius templates and base to base coherency, it is best practice to play with the same size bases for both sides. Differences also create problems in melee, as the number of figures for allowable contact in combat would change for those remounting figures on their own bases of odd sizes.

Third- The same vehicle represented by different size models can be upsetting to some people who perceive the models shape or bulk as an important game factor that ties into the ability to hit it.. But old speeders are cool. I've got almost a dozen of the Imperial Guard speeders..

Hey, if you really want to get someone mad field the cardboard cutout of an Ork Dreadnought from the 2nd Edition box set. Turn the 2D representation sideways to hide behind a single tree. Note- never did that, but it was discussed.

That guy was just a loser – plain and simple. Once the GW brainwashing takes hold it's hard to bring them back to the real world.

I don't think you're deliberately cheating. . . and since this wasn't a tournament game you're not even bending the rules.

Just so you know though, the last version of the rules I played regularly (4th) did have a rule that required figs to be based on a base that was AT LEAST the size of the one they were packaged with.

Normally that is interpreted as area, but would apply to height as well. Thus, your figs as based aren't strictly tournament legal if that rule is still around.

Still. . . for a casual game. . . who cares?

I guess my question would be, was the difference in miniature height coming up much. Like were you claiming cover/no line of sight in situations where if the figure was based on a regular base, no cover/line of sight blockage would exist? If that didn't even come up, I don't understand what this guy's problem was at all. . . aside from losing. LOL!

Gathrawn50 said it first.

This is a hobby,

You participate to have a good time.

If you are not having a good time do something else!

I have observed a few 40K games. Frankly doesn't look like much of a game to me. That said, the conduct of the participants ensured I will never get caught dead at a 40K table.

For cryin out loud! 40K is FANTASY. How in the world can you have set in concrete requirements for FANTASY????

The whole scene is beyond my limited comprehension.

mjc

if you really want to get someone mad field the cardboard cutout of an Ork Dreadnought from the 2nd Edition box set. Turn the 2D representation sideways to hide behind a single tree.

Since the figures were produced by GW they are legal for play; there was an article about the fun of using older generations of figures in this month's White Dwarf, even. I think the rules say that if you want to use bases other than the "official" slotta-based ones or similarly-sized ones you should get your opponents' permission before-hand, but by setting up and starting the game he sort of non-verbally agreed to your basing system.

Either way he allowed himself to be frustrated by his bad luck/tactics and felt the need to blame you for his troubles. He deserves a punch in the mouth. If he is such a hardcore GW fanboy he should be drooling over your collectible old-skool figures. People like him are the reason I often stay home to paint on game night.

My first comment is the same as Connard Sage: try to get the name of the game right!

"Rogue Trader" refers to a future where outcast spaceship commanders rove among the stars at the fringes of the Imperium.

"Rouge Trader" refers to a future where merchants go from planet to planet selling cosmetics. And it's pronounced differently! ;)

Anyway, on to your post.

First, without a doubt, your opponent was a bad sport. He was young and some of his viewpoints were understandable, but his manner towards you is inexcusable. If the situation is ever reversed, remember that: don't act like him. :)

Regarding fender washers versus slotta bases, well, OK. It's a stylistic choice. It is pretty non-standard for people playing 40K however, and you should acknowledge that you're aware of it. You should have clearly explained that you prefer the look, apologized -- not because there's anything wrong with it but because it's polite to do so -- and asked if he thought that would be a problem for game play.

Clearly there is an issue you hadn't considered as far as the line of sight rules. It's probably almost non-significant in actual play, but you wanted this to be a friendly game, so you should take that complaint seriously, and offer a way to make up for it. How about, you'll slide a rulebook under any figure he asks for and he can use the new height for measuring line of sight? Or you'll just put your finger on top of the figure to add height to it? In actual play rather than going through that you could just rule any question about barely covered line of sight in his favor, which should satisfy anybody, but it usually makes the other player feel better if up front they know they can rely on a metric.

Regarding old figures … That is absolutely OK, but if your opponent doesn't recognize them, you should explain they are old figures, something like, "they're from 1st edition, back when 40K was called Rogue Trader" (note spelling). Again, this is another place to politely apologize and ask if he thinks it will affect game play.

It turns out here, too, it might, because the figures are smaller. Probably this time it is significant to game play but is also balanced -- you can cram more figures into the same space giving you advantages for concentrating fire, distributing wounds, and close combat, but on the other hand, template weapons REALLY hurt you. But if that bothered him, you could just offer to make no figures closer than 1 finger width, or 2 fingers, or something like that. That also removes your disadvantage against template weapons.

The other issue with the non-standard figures is him not recognizing some of the vehicles. You're essentially proxying some as something else (as weapons platforms you said). Any time you do that you just have to accept the other player won't always remember so you need to frequently remind him.

His complaint about figures not fitting in the vehicles, on the other hand, you should deal with firmly: the rules say that many can fit. Point out the smaller vehicles provide cover for fewer figures if you want to say something to make him feel better.

Then the issue of him playing a bad first turn. Obviously you have no obligation there, except that you were trying to have a fun game. It would be sporting to offer to restart the game so both of you could have a chance at a fun game. If I was your opponent I would emphatically insist on playing out the table as it lay, but this opponent was obviously bothered by this. It's a sore point among many 40K players because there's a perception that a bad first turn can mean an unwinnable game, and -- yes, no bones about it -- some of them are immature enough to keep playing a game with this feature but also complain loudly about it.

Best of luck on your next outing to play 40K in a store!

Congratulations, you have experienced what psychologists call a "narcissistic rage." This is when someone realizes they have messed up, but cannot accept that they've screwed up, so they explode and try to blame their screw-up on anyone (and often everyone) around them.

So he screws up the first turn. Well, certainly it couldn't be that his deployment/maneuvers were faulty, or that the dice didn't like him, it must be something YOU are doing. And nothing will allow him to save his precious ego AND feel sld-righteous like accusing you of cheating.

So no, it's not you, it's him. He's a douchebag.

using old figs, nope not cheating, using old rinhos and speeders, ditto. they are offical GW figs (hell in a non torny game they should be fully leagal) the fender washer thing is a minor quibble, though i belive that as long as you rebase on identical or larger bases that the figs were origanly released with its not a problem. But to be honest all of the above should have been mentioned by him before you start, sounds just like hes a realy, realy bad loser. ( though i shoud add that i have taken old WDs and RT into a club i played at before to prove that what im using is an offical GW release, and then asked the person in question to apologise for saying that i was making things up.)

You can't fit ten figures in one of then new rhinos either, does he not let people use those?

You did good by remaining calm and not getting into a shouting match. Never argue with idiots- they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

"I don't think its cool to 'flame war' the store. They cannot held accountable for idiots who play in the back room."

I don't agree with that, and I suspect any responsible owner would want to be informed when some patrons are driving others away with unfounded accusations of cheating.

Allen

"I don't think its cool to 'flame war' the store. They cannot held accountable for idiots who play in the back room."

I don't agree either – The owner should be up to speed on who's gaming there so that it can be addressed. My FLGS has some occassional bad gamers but the full time staff have been pretty quick to intervene in any heated debate. It's part of the pain of allowing games on site.

BTW, they are mounted on 1" fender washers.
I ran into this problem when I was mounting them on 3/4" washers (back in 1990), and I got REALLY hurt by blast templates, as I could fit more figs in a smaller area. I did not place figs on a smaller base on the purpose to take advantage of the mob rules. But after the "Hop-Splat gun" incident, we realized that this was wrong, and I went back and changed the figs to the 1" to match the slottas…

Actually, I really did remain calm, which was to MY surprise…

The shop has a REALLY big room in the back, so I am sure they are fairly unaware of what is ever going on back there…

"Actually, I really did remain calm, which was to MY surprise… "

Probably shock. :-)

I am not a violent type at all, but if somebody EVER were to seriously accuse me of cheating in a game, and multiple times at that, I would indeed be prompted to punch him in the nose. I have NEVER cheated and I would consider it a serious attack on my integrity if I were to be accused of such a lowly thing.

Obviously you were NOT cheating in any way.

I think it would be an absolute treat to play against an army of old Rogue Trader figures.

No, you weren't cheating; that guy was just a dumb monkey with a small banana.

People get way to exciteable about the 'True LOS' rule. I mount my 40k figures on heavily modeled bases. They may be prone, climbing over rubble, or even airborne if they have a jump pack! I thought the accepted tournament convention was that when the figures were non-standard, the LOS was determined as if the figure was standard.

I think it's the game.

Last summer I went to my local GW and played a pickup game just after the 5th Edition 40k rules had come out. My opponent was a guy with a very very old White Scars army, many motorcycle mounted troops.

Those motorcycle troops used to have a rule that gave them what 40k calls an "invulnerable save." The 5th edition changed it to a "cover save." I had a weapon, a flame thrower, which ignores "cover saves."

When I used that weapon against this fellow he insisted that his bikes got a save roll because they had the "invulnerable save." I said, "you used to be correct, but they've changed it in the new rules." He insisted I was wrong. I said, "do you have a copy of the new rules?" (I noticed he didn't have a rule book with him). He said he did not. I offered to let him look at my rule book so I could show him the change. He declined to do so and insisted that he was correct and that I was just trying to cheat.

When I persisted in asking him to please just look at the rule book, he accused me of suggesting that he wasn't able to read (this fellow was an African American).

I packed up my things and left……..

Should have kicked him in the nads. Give him a reason fer whining.

NO, you were not cheating!

I assume the guy saw your figures before playing? If he had any beef with them and what they were representing he should have made it clear from the start and not after play had begun and his game started going south.

If it was supposed to be a friendly pick up game then he should have been agreeable on making adjustments or compromises given your "older" but still official GW figures.

If your figures are based on 1" washers then they are based wider than the slotta bases no? If so, HE had the advantage on line of sight and blast templates etc… etc…

Besides, he could have agreed that LOS was to the "center of the figure" to make things "fair" and continue playing. :P

*sigh*

Nope not cheating. Punch him in the nose.

Hey Bede19025,

Its one thing to be an idjit like my opponent, but its an entire different ball of wax when you IGNORE a rule just to give you and edge up…

See this link about tournament play ruining the hobby!
TMP link

"Rouge Trader" refers to a future where merchants go from planet to planet selling cosmetics. And it's pronounced differently! ;)

Gives a whole new meaning to Avon in Blake's 7……

"There is a new race of spoilt brats who have never been taught that actions have consequences."

And unfortunately this same breed would be the first to call the police on you for assault over a poke in the nose. When faced with the unreasonable, take the reasonable approach and walk away.

You can play with your figures as you describe at my house any day!

Grown ups quarrel about toy soldiers.
Thats ridiculous.

First you should have kicked him in the balls.
Second against his head, when he goes down.
Third in his stomach when he's on the ground.
That would have taught him what it means to fight unfair.
Not to think about the risen street cred and your new rep as a real killer.
I tell you, nobody ever would call you a cheater again.
;-)

Richard, go talk to the owner & point the guy out. The store owner has always seemed reasonable.

But, stepping outside of the emotions, & his bad behavior, I think he does have somewhat of a point (but not one I'd support in a pick-up game). With the new true line rules, if you can physically see the figure, you can shoot it. So your smaller figures & vehicles on shorter bases could be considered as a cheesy way to game the system. & I wouldn't be suprised if someone on the GT circuit isn't already trying to do it already, if nothing else by putting their plastics together all hunched down.

One solution, at least for the infantry, would be to take the average height of his figs, & then say that's how tall your figures are. But that does mean you'd have to put a tape measure next to each of your figs when he wants to shoot at it, which hopefully would annoy the crap out of him.

But I think your solution of remaining calm until it's gone to far, & then leaving was a good one. Or maybe ask one of the people who was supporting your point if they wanted to have a game instead.

& you should have popped one of the bases of your figs & shown him the "GW 99" on the bottom to at least shut him up as the figs not being "official".

richarDMB, I believe you ran into a player that believe he had an easy win for the simple fact that you had not played in awhile. When things went wrong in the first turn for him, Oh, well, you know what happened.

guys, before flaming the store, I think that you need to consider that the store owner maybe in a catch 22 situation, or at least he may believe he is in one. Some store owners don't confront these types of people because they believe in the old saying that confrontation on this order leads to negative advertising – and by the way, I know not doing anything leads to the same result. In a tight a ecomony, the owner may be worried about losing a large group of gamers if this one person gets ticked off and leaves – who purchase a lot. richarDMB, is a new player, older and using older figures. the owner not saying anything may be due to considering which individual spends more in the store.

Extra crispy said it best , not the rules , figs or terrain its the players . ( and the beer) that make a game fun.
Don't play with him any more . make sure your opponent knows what your figures are . And make it well known that some people are whiners and can't be gamed with . This is what you can do , he will call the police when you hit him. ( though he deserves it)

Rouge Trader sounds like more fun then 40K

And for once, Black Cav and Scrapwelder, I WAS NOT DRINKING BEFOREHAND… Just thought I would clarify… granted that might have helped. Well, I did afterwards…

And he was the one to call BS for the smaller figs. If he wanted to add on a few mm for the older/smaller figs, I would be totally cool with that. I am not a Tourney player, so as long as I am having a good time, I really don't care who is winning. The Uno Kid can attest to that…

So…. he didn't have any problem with what you fielded until he started losing? Is that right?

If he had a complaint about your basing or your unit size and the rules he ought to have brought it up before the game began.