"Did the Royalist Cornish Regiments have uniform coats?" Topic

I have a vague understanding tht the Royalist foot units that were uniformed were the regiments in the Oxford or Newcastle army.

So were the Cornish foot uniformed, or did they just wear their civilian clothing?

Thanks.

Sorry, about that deletion, touch of the TMP Bug, I think, my reply was as follows:

Hi Bede, certainly early Cornish regiments raised under Commissions of Array, rather than being principally from the Trained Bands, are unlikely to have had much of a uniform in the main, and certainly the rigors of campaigning would soon have put paid to what there was.

I guess after victories like Stratton, captured Parliamentary stocks would be on offer, but perhaps field signs would be most prevalent way of distinguishing units one from the other.

Written references on this, certainly from my limited knowledge, are restricted to the later years of the war, for instance Lunsford's being in blue after July 1643, or others being in red in 1644, quoted in Peachey and Prince's excellent "ECW Flags and Colours 1: English Foot".

I guess you might say that the richer the patron/colonel of the regiment might be, then the likelihood that they could afford to offer some uniform cloth would mean more uniformity, but who can say for sure? Hope someone else can shed more light on this, but I would treat with scepticism some of the assumptions made on uniform coats in particular, without any written references to back them up.

Mind you, they're your figures, so do what you feel comfortable with, or what looks best to you on the tabletop!

Cheers, SteelonSand.

Its my understanding that the Royalist Cornish regiment was dressed primarily in white linen.

yep white in my references also

cheers
matt

Any chance of stating these references – esp linen.

Don't think so – there are references, I'm told, to ribbons on the sleeves. These I believe, contrary to what a lot of people in the SK seen to think, were "bunches" of ribbons (in the French style) to give a bit of "uniform" to otherwise civiliam clad units.

As far as I know there are no uniform details for the Cornish regiments. Would be very interested to hear if anyone knows otherwise! (and can provide references).

I have heard speculatuion that they might include bluecoats, as blue was apparently a common colour in the West Country (like Scots Hodden Grey or Lincoln Green), but that's just speculation.

Ditto Timbo's comment. Cornish blue may however be a Victorian notion.

Well my article in Time Portal Passages of 2001 only had regimental coat colors by regiment commander's name and not by region. We used over a dozen sources that were regarded as easy to get by the average gamer.

the Marquis of Newcastle's 'Whitecoats are listed but I am not sure that it was all Cornish units. Seven other Royalist commanders had white listed as a coat color. 20 Rgts are cited for red coats, 22 had blue in various shades plus one purple of a bluish tint. A few others had green, Black, Yellow and Gray.

Several Midland Rgts are commented on as wearing blue.

Sorry that it was not better help.

ok checked references I have these for 1644

When the King's army was in Cornwall, the infantry was divided into three tertias, and every tertia should consist of three brigades, and thus they continued the march backe againe.

First tertia was commanded by Colonel Blague, governor of Wallingford Castle; his regiment was there at Wallingford.

Colonels:

King's Life Guard.
Lord Generall Ruthin's.
Sir Jacob Astley, Major Generall.
Colonel Sir Henry Bard.
Duke of Yorkes.
Sir James Penniman's. Eldest Regiment of the army.
Lord Percies.
Sir Lewis Dives.

Second tertia was commanded by Colonel George Lisle.

Colonels:
Colonel Cha. Lloyd, Quartermaster Generall and Enginere Generall. (Ebor.)
Colonel George Lisle's, which was Colonel Bolles.
Colonel Thelwel's, Wales.
Owen, raysd in Wales.
Ewre, bulg. Euers.
Blackwall, Nott.
Gilby, raysd Ebor.
Stradling, Wales.
Vaughan's, Wales.

Third tertia commanded by Sir Bernard Asteley, son to Sir Jacob.
Colonels:
Lord Hopton's Regiment.
Colonel Apisley.
Talbot
Cooke.
Courtney, &c.
------------------------------------------------------------
first formed 1641
Col William Godolphin
dark Blue coats, white cuffs, officers saffron hoops
Sir Bevill Grenville
Dark blue coats, and ref white coats
Sir Nicholas Slanning
sky/mid blue (the tinners)
from my understanding a grey mid blue not unlike rabbit fur grey tinged blue.
Col John Trevanion
White then red
Lord Warick Mohun Horse
Unknown

companys colonels
Hawkins
Coryton
Tillier
Corbet (green)
John(son)
Francis Basset (sheriff of cornwall)
Sir James Cobb (mohuns horse)
Sir William Wraye

from
'The Military Career of Richard, Lord Molyneux, C. 1623-54'.

Hi bluewillow,

thanks for looking this up.

I think you have two types of info here, the first looks like Symond's diary from Molyneuxs' website link
giving the order of Battle of the Oxford Army during the Cornish campaign in 1644. This is a really useful resource as Symonds was an eyewitness (in King's Lifeguard of horse).

The second, (from Godolphin etc) looks like a list of Sealed Knot re-enactment regiments (Lord Hopton's Tercio) link . They had to make their 'best-guess' on uniforms where there was no information, and I guess its as good as any for figure-painting purposes, but as far as I'm aware has no Historical evidence.

here are a few from the above list according to the TPP article
King's Life Guard.- burgundy red
Lord Generall Ruthin's = red ?
Sir Jacob Astley, Major Generall = red
Colonel Sir Henry Bard =gray
Duke of Yorkes =red
Sir James Penniman's = Blue
Lord Percies =white
Sir Lewis Dives = white

Second tertia was commanded by Colonel George Lisle.

Colonels:
Colonel Cha. Lloyd, Quartermaster Generall and Enginere Generall. (Ebor.)
Colonel George Lisle's = Royal blue
Colonel Thelwel's, Wales.= blue
Owen, raysd in Wales = blue
Ewre, bulg. Euers.
Blackwall, Nott.
Gilby, raysd Ebor.
Stradling, Wales = blue
Vaughan's, Wales.

Third tertia commanded by Sir Bernard Asteley, son to Sir Jacob.
Colonels:
Lord Hopton's Regiment = blue
Colonel Apisley = red
Talbot = yellow
Cooke.
Courtney, &c.

"The second, (from Godolphin etc) looks like a list of Sealed Knot re-enactment regiments (Lord Hopton's Tercio) link . They had to make their 'best-guess' on uniforms where there was no information, and I guess its as good as any for figure-painting purposes, but as far as I'm aware has no Historical evidence."

Ditto

What are we talking about here? If we are talking about the first Western Army led by Hopton which fought the Stratton – Lansdown – Bristol campaign then there is no evidence that any uniform coats were ever issued, just as there is no evidence for what their flags were. Being based on the local militia the latter may have been striped but they undoubtedly wore their normal clothes in this campaign.

If we are talking about Royalist forces which subsequently operated in Cornwall, whether based there or which entered at some point (eg in the Lostwitheil campaign) then the Partizan book on flags provides all the reliable information that exists.

Have to agree with Timmo Uk, TimboW and 1ngram above; if any one can provide references for the coats/colours of, for instance, Nicholas Slanning's, John Trevanion's, Lord Mohun's or William Godolphin's Foot circa 1642 to 1643 (i.e Sherborne or Babylon Hill through to Saltash and Braddock Down), then they would be an absolute marvel!

Any takers?

I think that the likelihood of uniform coat colours is slight prior to the rendezvous with the army of Maurice and Hertford out of Oxford in mid 1643, or indeed when elements of Hopton's forces joined with the King's Army before Bristol in late July 1643, when stocks of Oxford red or blue might have been issued.
The opinions above on colours being 'old' striped types, perhaps with an element of Cornish black and white, might very well be spot on; but who can really say for sure?

In any event, prior to 1643, I'd paint them as a fearsome, ragged rabble that would put the fear of god into anyone east of the Tamar!

Cheers, SteelonSand.

Apologies for the threadomancy here,

but I was looking at Stuart Reid's 'Officers and Regiments' and he has Sir Bevil Grenville's foot (Cornish army under Hopton- Braddock, Stratton, Lansdown etc) as bluecoats.

Can anyone say if there is a good source for this?

Timbo W said"Apologies for the threadomancy here,

but I was looking at Stuart Reid's 'Officers and Regiments' and he has Sir Bevil Grenville's foot (Cornish army under Hopton- Braddock, Stratton, Lansdown etc) as bluecoats.

Can anyone say if there is a good source for this?"

Yes I can Sir Bevil Grenvile's regt of foot had Blue and white coloured Pikes and Musket rests as these were his family's colours. I would suggest that you might want to paint some (maybe half?) with Blue coat and white shirt and the rest in civilian cloth. Source Mary Coate's Cornwall in the great civil war.

Excellent Marcus!

It's been many years since I read that one, will have to revisit it. If you have the book handy, does Mary Coates give a reference for the stripey pikes and musket-rests?

I suppose this still doesn't prove they were bluecoats but it is suggestive.

You might find this interesting.

link

That's a really nice article Dash, thanks for sharing!

I have heard on the grapevine that someone has found actual real cloth samples from Bushel's suits preserved in an obscure archive. Apparently the red was a good strong consistent colour, while the blue was pretty variable, no doubt due to the characteristics of the dyes.

Do you have any further details on the cloth samples, Timbo? The assumption has generally been that the red would soon fade, so it would be very interesting if there were any original samples that showed something different.

Hi Tea Lover,

Now the story I heard was on GWP2 (Gentleman's Wargames Parlour) that died a death when its ISP expired and was re-created as GWP3, see here link

IIRC it was 'Sparrow' that told us the tale of someone digging around in archives who found some of Bushell's cloth samples folded up in an ancient tome. (Therefore being protected from the light for the last 350 years). The discoverer might be Stuart Peachey from nods and hints, and every year or so I badger Sparrow into badgering Stuart (probably) to get the info published, but no luck so far!

I imagine the good preservation would be entirely due to them being stuck inside a book in a dim and dingy archive since the 17th C, but as you say they'd likely fade quickly on campaign in sun, rain and mud.

Thanks very much Timbo – I know Stuart quite well so shall start pestering myself.

What is a little puzzling is that bearing in mind the way that both colours (presumably) were preserved is, why did the blue survive in so much more faded condition than the red?

Hi Tea Lover,

as I heard the story the blue-dyed cloth seems to have been a lot more variable to begin with. I really know nothing on 17thC dyes but understand that red is the easiest one to do, perhaps this is all it shows.

IIRC I mentioned that I was glad my usual method of randomly selecting a different shade of blue paint for every half-dozen figures was historically correct :-)

Hi chaps
SOmone above has certainly got a list of SK regimental uniforms and mixed it up with SYmonds.

Grenvile's Blue I am almost certain dates from after the Cornish campaigns were over but will have to check and Coate's reference to painted rest is her misunderstanding the original quote

The red samples is a beer tent myth- STuart Peachey did a great booklet on the SOldier's coat – early editions of which had a swatch of cloth that he had dyed

Black and white in association with Cornwall is more than likely a C18th fabrication looking at the flag sources and an affectation on some (one? )SK flag

Sparrow denies everything- then he would!

Dave

Partizan Press/ Caliver Books

Hi Dave, good to hear from you, hope all is well at Caliver,

Ah, was wondering about the original info behind the Coates quote, shame really!

Nooooo – led astray by the internets on those cloth samples, sorry for passing this info around but it was in good faith, probably some sort of Chinese whispers type of thing.

Talking of black-and-white didn't someone make up a flag once for Newcastle's Rgt completely based on the Newcastle football strip?

TImbo

ALL fine and dandy thanks

Newcastle's yes they did – and the First ECW re-enactment unit I was ever in had FEAR NAUGHT BUT WATNEY's in Latin on on the flag

Classic! :-)

this is a very interesting thread, my understanding was that hopton's army was a tertio with 4 famous regts whose col's ended up loosing their lives. sir nick slanning, i believe garrisoned pendennis castle before the war and famously uniformed his regt. as he owned dye works in taunton (his home town) the SK regt wears taunton/powder blue. we don't know if this is acurate but it is an educated guess. Will Godolphin would have been unlikely to have uniformed his regt. the SK regt wears this colour i always thought due to a scism about 20 years ago in our regt. they took their doublets and sewed hoops onto them so they needn't make new ones, i hadn't heard about the above comment. the SK grenville regt wears blue with silver hoops i don't know anything about this being acurate or not and i believe trevanyon's may have worn white. blue was a cheap colour. there is evidence i believe a quote from waller? "these cornish devils hearts are as black as their shirts" whether he was suggesting they wore black/dark grey shirts or whether they were noticeably filthy one can only guess, black is not that extraordinary colour as first emagined for the 17th century as bleaching black wool may have been missed. the reason why newcastle FC wear black and white is due to the school the club came from being commisioned by the marq of newcastle/duke of northumberland so it is likely that newcastles standard would be black and white as that's his family's colours!

Hi slannings6

"Gone the four wheels of Charles's wain,
Grenville, Godolphin, Slanning, Trevannion slain"

(Lord Mohun's being the 5th of the Cornish volunteer Rgts)

Interesting that Slanning owned a dye works in Taunton, its often been supposed that blue was a likely colour for Cornish coats, but there's no real explicit evidence surviving unfortunately as far as I know.

Newcastle's arms "Sable three Bucks' Heads cabossed Argent, with a Crescent for difference" so black-and-white is at least possible.

Regarding flag colours for Newcastle's foot regiments, these were captured at Marston Moor-

11 red, 6 yellow, 4 white, 3 green, 1 blue of which:-
11 red with white crosses, 1 yellow with a red cross and 3 black roses, 1 white with red cross and 5 black streamers, 2 green with a red cross upon white and 4 or 5 little white crosses sloping downwards,a blew with a red and white cross.

Though of course some of these could have come from Rupert's forces.

Additionally some regiments have had flag colours 'conjectured' – Byerley and Lamplugh – Yellow, Hilton – Black, Langdale's – White.

The Sealed Knot Newcastle's Rgt is here newcastlesfoote.co.uk
They chose the red flag with white crosses because Newcastle's was probably the largest regiment of the Northern Foot, and 11 of these colours were taken at Marston Moor, whereas most rgts had a maximum of 10 colours.

excellent info timbo like the quote as well, i think anyone painting hopton's tertio figures would generally do well to mainly paint 80-90% pale blue doublets with a mix of other colours, odd black cuffs and collars some brown with only officers having white, maybe officers could sport gold hoops and or chevrons, breechers and hose any authentic colour. godolphins could possibly worn pale green as thats the families colour but its more likely they weren't provided for.