"How Many HMGS Members Want HCON to Move to Baltimore?" Topic

"…I wish them luck in establishing a viable and thriving five star hotel afficionado society. But they aren't us."

And they don't have a snappy acronym, Pat. FSHAS? Could we have a better one, please?

"What in the world would anyone need 8 large for in Baltimore at the BCC, it's not that expensive to get to unless you are flying first class and staying at a five star hotel."

That story will be written in the financial reports, if anyone is willing to admit how much comped attendance and "expenses" for the dignitaries of the hobby actually cost.

Allen

Are you truly an HMGS-East member Treppiede or not? Or are you the one who is really practicing voter fraud? I feel you have a hidden agenda so I am voting no again to cancel out Treppiede.

As the progenitor of this marvelous thread thanks to editor Bill, I have to rule against Treppiede's vote but he is definitely entitled to express his opinion regarding the move. Also I think we said this was unscientific going in and it means pretty much what you want it to mean being very unofficial. However, this little poll and another one I heard about was also 60-40 or thereabouts and the grumbling and unhappiness from the many members I talked to at HCON including some of my dealer friends tells me something that our leaders didn't understand. It's not even close folks, but it is a Done Deal as far as I can see. So I'm saving my pennies and planning trips to CoinStar at the grocery store and hoping Uncle Sugar doesn't want everything back. Baltimore or Bust. Or both probably.

Monsieur Treppiede did try to vote twice. He voted on page 3 right before the "official poll" closed, but we kept it going. But useless, I don't think so.
Oh, by the way we are going to have to impeach Kyote Blue on the Vegas Strip Con ,but he could impeach himself and run for re-election on a "reform BOD" platform. Didn't we already have one of those?

I vote yes again.

Nay

Nay again.

Yea

Yes again (again).

I am not going to keep this up and sink to your level Treppiede.
So if you want to keep this up go right ahead.

or not depending.

Cool down, Disco Joe. Sinking to my level? So negative in the face of some fun. Wow.

Just to catch up, as I have been a few days renewing my "Trusted Member" status.

One thing, it is not unusual for Coggins and Condray to say nice things about each other. But for better or worse I don't have many friends with whom I won't disagree if I think they are wrong. This is an handicap in clique politics, but I'll live with it.

Another thing, someone referred to my "What do I get for my $5? mentality." Actually, I was successfully opposed by the "What do I get for my $5?" faction in the 1993-95 era.

There was some concern that positive cash flow policies of the OLD GUARD (which included Coggins and Condray) were keeping benefits away from the long suffering members, whose dues (then $5) were being socked away in the "Condray Slush Fund."

Bob Jones, the Guru of Zen Wargaming(PK), writing as D.I.M. did a parody in which he promised if elected King of HMGS he would take that slush fund and buy all members a big mac, french fries, and a t-shirt.

The Consensus BOD, in the process of dropping the treasury from around $60,000 to $31,000 between August of 1995 and April of 1997 made much of member benefits to reward the $5 USD donations of the members (who also happened to be voters.) And when their "Drunken Sailor" financial management policies blew up on the wake of the COLDWARS 97 fiasco they were quick to raise prices for everyone except the "What do I get for my $5?" crowd.

It wasn't until the membership meeting at HISTORICON 97 that I finally laid it out in a fashion even the "What do I get for my $5?" bunch could understand. People were actually asking if they could deduct their $5 USD contribution to a not for profit educational corporationn (HMGS EAST) from their taxable income!

I asked Bill Gray, the newsletter editor how much the newsletter cost per capita (I knew, as did he.) He said $6.50. Then I pointed out that the member discount, then $4 USD per convention, thus $8 USD going on $12, was more than twice the dues. So they were getting $18.50 USD worth of benefits for $5. USD

Much to my surprise, they shut up. The next day the BOD raised renewal dues from $5 USD to $10. USD They were kind enough to give me credit for suggesting it. They lied.

So what has this got to do with Baltimore? It is a stretch. But I'm seeing a familiar pattern emerging for HMGS EAST in the area of fiscal responsibility (or the lack of it.) Accumulating a then unnecessarily large management reserve seems to have given the BOD delusions of grandeur. They are now risking much of it (if not all) to solve a problem (crowding and lack of visibility with the general population) which is exaggerated if valid at all.

Which I term a return to the "Drunken Sailor school of financial management."

As we have learned, the progressive overcrowding of HISTORICON has reversed itself for various reasons, probably not least of which is the international depression. So we are solving a non problem with a very expensive and high risk solution.

If the cyclical pattern of HMGS EAST financial management holds true, a fiscal disaster will be followed by the "Chicken Little" school of financial management in which all costs and fees are dramatically raised.

That too may prove counter productive in a depression.

Like the BOD and convention staff I hope casuals from the meagalopolis combined with a return of the FOW Nationals will boost attendance and help us make a go of things.

I'm in. I have a paternal interest in HISTORICON.

But I wish the leadership, most of which I voted for, was a bit less reckless.

Pat Condray

Well said Pat.

Pat,
I second the "well said." I enjoyed my converation with you in the dealers area. While I, my daugther and many others will not be going to Baltimore, I wish you and those who do the best and via con dios.

The BOD did what it did and seems intent on living with it.

I've been to the Inner Harbor a number of times and a Historicon at BCC doesn't even sound like fun. HMGS will survive and perhaps even learn from the experience good or bad.

Myself I'll be gaming elsewhere next summer one way or another. I'll miss Historicon for what it was and what it has meant to me like one misses a good friend who he may never see again.

Gil

No.

Why is this not an 'official' poll question???

Why is this not an 'official' poll question???

Apparently, people have to stop posting on this thread and it drops to the bottom of the list for an official poll to be created.

ironic huh?

The editor wrote on page 4:

You do realize that you have to stop discussing the topic, so that it can "sink" to the bottom of the board and become an actual poll, right? grin

Will there be an option to vote for vegas?

Pat, you're sounding too much like my old fraternity brother, Larry Lindsey, who as director of the NEC and assistant to the President for economic policy, allowed as how the costs of a little war we were having would likely be considerably higher than other folks were promising. Some rum cove then called his prediction "baloney" and Larry got the boot. He was right, of course.

It's not healthy to play the Laocoon or Cassandra role. Folks don't appreciate it.

Allen

No and it would cut my drive from 2 hrs to 45 minutes.

>A one off TV piece on the evening news in Lancaster County will not raise our profile but a 5 minute promotional piece within one or more of the 5 morning shows will raise our profile.
>

There are no local morning shows, only the syndicated ones. And I watch the 11 o-clock news, and they _never_ mention events at the BCC. Other than the boat show.

>People were actually asking if they could deduct their $5 USD USD contribution to a not for profit educational corporationn (HMGS EAST) from their taxable income!
>

Maybe we can raise the dues to $50 USD in order to pass some threshold so that they _would_ be deductable?

For instance, a charity whose purpose is to fund the costs of sending children to "history simulation camp" (ie the convention). Contributors could nominate candidates…

So Carnivorous Tripod whats up with constantly changing your username on tmp? Last week you were Treppiede. Now you are Carnivorous Tripod. Before that it was something else.
Nothing suits you? Just wondering.

I for one am pretty darn proud of being a "what do I get for my 5 bucks" wargamer. How about that, Pat? I attribute the saying to you and it seems to fit your philosophy of do we need the expense of fancy hotels, higher prices, an alliance with the fantasy world etc. As a starting gamer, I remember when 5 bucks could only buy a regt of Hinchliffe at $2.95 USD a box so six bucks really. My beloved Minifig 15s were at first 5 infantry for $.35 USD then $.45 USD and gasp $.55 USD a strip. Until the super detailed Minifigs appeared at 24 for $3.95 USD I think, I couldn't buy much else. I discovered HMGS in 85 or 86 via Little Soldier where I had seen you camped out with some of your flats and the ubiquitous William who seemed to have a vast knowledge of lots of things. But hey, as time went along I got some raises and I can afford more but there is something about those days of simplistic wargaming and cheaper prices yet to be inflated.

Oh, yeah, Kyote you need to resign and run again for Las Vegas BOD. Strip Con is not going anywhere it seems. Also the person who inquired about HMGS-Vegas membership; well it's full. No new members.

No

Disco Joe inquires:

So Carnivorous Tripod whats up with constantly changing your username on tmp? Last week you were Treppiede. Now you are Carnivorous Tripod. Before that it was something else. Nothing suits you? Just wondering.

I change my name quite frequently. Just for fun (I don't take toy soldiers and games too seriously). I actually used this name about a year ago for awhile and then got bored. Now it's back.

How about you? "Disco" (yuck!). Really!?!

I vote Nay …. I will only be able to make it for a day now because of the move. It's also just not about games, but fellowship as that's almost 50% of the reason why I come to the show. I think a little bit of that will be lost.

A few things to mention (sorry if already posted) that I've noticed about this move:

1) If you somehow get lost in the convention center area and end up in the Westside be sure to take off your name badges and guard your wallets. Your toy soldiers won't be able to put up much of a fight then ;-) That place is sketchy at best and generally a poor area.

2) This move goes to one of the largest East Coast harbors during the week of the Fourth of July celebration where the founder of the national anthem completed the song. That has 'fireworks' in the works in my opinion.

3) Anyone else notice the influx of youth at HCon this past year? That is phenomenal. They are our future as none of us are getting any younger. We've now asked them, and their family, to commit to come Baltimore, pay far more money than an average family of four would in Lancaster, thus reducing the money that could go towards dealers, etc., or forcing them not to come at all.

But as someone pointed out a while ago, the real test of this will be who shows and who doesn't. There will be the real answer to this question – not with voices but by actual physical bodies showing.

Cheers and happy gaming/painting.

"How about you? "Disco" (yuck!). Really!?!"
Usually people who can't dance say things like that. And I still feel that maybe you have something you are trying to hide by the fact you keep changing your name. And the last few really make no sense at all.

May be. But it got a lot of folks… satisfactorily concluding short-term intimate relationships… back then, when they might not have without it.

Allen

I see Pat Condray is still up to his tale of lies, lies, and half-truths. And the half-truths are always bent to aggrandize his HMGS East godlike pose. No, no, he was never ever at fault. However, he was recently kicked out of the HMGS South and banned, I believe, from even attending their conventions. Something a few folks in East think should have been done with him a long time ago. In truth, it took the new 1995 Board a little over a year to finally figure out what Pat's pre-95 Asleep-At-The-Wheel Board was up to for years and we corrected it as best we could. The HMGS East treasury never got as low as 31k as Pat would have folks believe. It's a pure lie. Don't believe it. The bit about the newsletter versus dues is semi-true. Pat did ask the question, but it was the Board that took it one more step further. We asked Bill Gray to gin up the costs of producing the newsletter and found that the per-cost figure was more than yearly dues. That's why we raised the dues, plus we had made the decision to open the 3d convention in 1997, Fall-In.
If you think his practices and leadership ability were and remain all that marvelous, somebody reading this should draft Pat to run again for the East Board.

Time to kill this pig I think, Bill.

Hmmmm, Master Caster raises some interesting …. allegations.

anyone?

Nothing beats a fresh page.

Attention

In the interest of bringing this poll discussion to closure, I am asking that you only post to this discussion if you have something to discuss about the poll.

You Have Been Warned

About the poll…wouldn't it be simpler to just post one already?

Waiting for people to stop talking about something before creating a poll seems to be an adherence to some self-imposed rule, yet not in the spirit of it. Start a poll as suggested and the topic will grind on or fade away on its own.

Waiting for people to stop talking about something before creating a poll seems to be an adherence to some self-imposed rule…

I like to give the discussion a chance to settle down before running the poll.

Well, given the title of the topic, it would seem that it asks for the opinion of HMGS members only. But, would the poll be open to anyone, regardless as to affiliation? Or, maybe HMGS-East members only?

I like to give the discussion a chance to settle down before running the poll.

I don't see any reason for that, but YMMV. An actual poll will just stir discussion again anyway. I think we'll see at least 11 more months of this, plus more following the convention no matter what the result.

If it will help advance a poll and addressing some of the questions posed by Carnivorous Tripod (likely to be another poster name by this time next week ) on 11:18, I would suggest two methods of polling.

Method A (Identifies membership subset of voting population, identifies subset of idea approval, identifies attendance among subsets, but does not identify shifts between venues)

1. HMGS-E member. Baltimore is a good idea. I will attend.

2. HMGS-E member. Baltimore is a good idea. I will not attend.

3. HMGS-E member. Baltimore is a bad idea. I will attend.

4. HMGS-E member. Baltimore is a bad idea. I will not attend.

5. Not a member. Baltimore is a good idea. I will attend.

6. Not a member. Baltimore is a good idea. I will not attend.

7. Not a member. Baltimore is a bad idea. I will attend.

8. Not a member. Baltimore is a bad idea. I will not attend.

Method B (less stress on the move support or membership subsets of the voting population, but instead is focused on a before and after results of possible attendance shifts with a root cause qualifier for negative shifts.)

1. Attended prior Historicons and will also attend in Baltimore.

2. Did not attend in Lancaster, I will now in Baltimore.

3. Attended in Lancaster. I will not in Baltimore, mostly due to the location.

4. Attended in Lancaster, I will not in Baltimore, mostly due to the date change.

5. Attended in Lancaster, but will not in Baltimore because of reasons other than location and date.

6. I did not attend prior, and don't plan too. I just want to vote in this poll.

I personally think method B would be more helpful on measuring the impact of the move decision, at least among the subset of poll takers representing past or potential convention goers, among those that are on TMP and may or may not be HMGS-E members.

As the move decision was made without a membership referendum, I see no need to limit poll respondents to just members. The bottom line in my opinion will be the end result, i.e.- who did show up that doesn't in 2010 vs. who didn't show up that will in 2010. The delta may be a indication of success..or not.

I generally like the questions, and both polls could be used. Of course, they still would not be "scientific" in the least, since there is no way of ensuring an accurate cross section of Historicon attendees, HMGS-East members, etc., because despite how wonderful TMP is and has been (note: bit of kissing), it most probably does not accurately represent the miniature gaming community. I know at least three gamers locally who never heard of TMP, for example. (I remind them to have a look and sign up, but they look at me as if I have three heads--I actually have four).

Anyway, this poll probably should be phrased as a TMP community poll, not presented as a poll representing the entire wargaming community. THat way, we might avoid at least 400+ posts regarding what the poll represents.

I would like to offer another poll: what should my next screen name be?

A: Who Cares?
B: Who the are you?
C: Carnivorous Tripod is just fine, but still makes no sense.
D: I hate your guts, get out of my face!

Anyway, this poll probably should be phrased as a TMP community poll, not presented as a poll representing the entire wargaming community. THat way, we might avoid at least 400+ posts regarding what the poll represents.

Yep. I agree. I tried to qualify that in my previous post- among those that are on TMP and may or may not be HMGS-E members.

To your name poll I would add "E. Shrug."

I agree any poll here is not scientific, but it does provide a greater sampling than the number of people used to achieve a decision on the move.

mbsparta It is NOT a success if they loose valued members because of this move. At some point people are going to have to recognize that HMGS-East should exist to serve its membership, not just the BoD and their pet interests. Therein lies the real issue with the move to Baltimore. IMHO of course. :)

@Mike B. – Perhaps the method A poll suits your purpose better, as it separates the subset of membership and then subdivides by opinion and then further by attendance.

However, my opinion is that I can be replaced in the eyes of the institutional part of the organization. I'm ok with that. I've got plenty of other options.

Because geography and attendance is a big factor in terms of membership demographics, I feel method B is more useful because it may be an indicator of whether the loss of some is made up by others who previously stayed home. That goes to the core of moving things "to the next level" to attract X% of the number of lost souls that stopped going because it was in Lancaster and not a large metropolitan area like Origins. The poll results may show if Icarus is flying too high towards the sun.

Your point on who the organization serves, which I agree with in large part, would perhaps be better as a separate topic. You and Mr.Coggins could have a vigorous debate there. I'll put on some

Your point on who the organization serves, which I agree with in large part, would perhaps be better as a separate topic. You and Mr.Coggins could have a vigorous debate there. I'll put on some

……… Your right. And Bob would out argue me. Plus, with a Hooters nearby, I am reconsidering my position. :)

Mike B

You're swayed by a mere Hooters? What about Vegas? And no-one can take the poll seriously if it doesn't have a Vegas option. Following Goldwyrm's Method A, that could be:

9. What's HMGS? Who cares about Baltimore? It's gotta be Vegas, baby!

Or Method B:

7. What happens in Lancaster, gets talked about for the next decade (or two). I'm a red-blooded American male, and I'm going to Vegas, baby!

There should be AT LEAST 12 different responses, so the results will be guaranteed to make no sense.

How 'bout just yes, I'm going to BCC for Historicon or just no, I'm not going to Historicon. Keep it black and white!

"How 'bout just yes, I'm going to BCC for Historicon or just no, I'm not going to Historicon. Keep it black and white!"

But that would make sense. And we don't want that to happen do we?
Also it should be limited to one vote per tmp member no matter how many times an individual changes their reader name. You only get one vote.

I think it already gives you only one vote, although you can change your mind and change your vote until the poll ends.

Also it should be limited to one vote per tmp member no matter how many times an individual changes their reader name. You only get one vote.

But the topic asks HMGS members only. Goldwyrm's suggestions are good. So, if you're not a member, then you shouldn't be able to vote, right? Or are we now talking about a different topic?

Carnivorous Tripod: "But the topic asks HMGS members only. Goldwyrm's suggestions are good. So, if you're not a member, then you shouldn't be able to vote, right? Or are we now talking about a different topic?"
You are very correct, as I read it, the question was aimed at HMGS members. You may want to limit or label responses for HMGS-East members and non-HMGS-East members since other hmgs chapters run their own cons. It also only asked if they wanted it moved. In this 8 page thesis we've discussed everything but erectile disfunction and the H1N1 flu. It is a good basis for a poll since the question did not come up from the HMGS-East BoD in their quest to move away from the Lancaster Host and away from a Historical Miniatures formated convention.

"non-HMGS-East"

What IS HMGS in that it has east and non-east members?

{I'd sort of presumed it was a wargames club, but I may be mistaken in this.}