"How Many HMGS Members Want HCON to Move to Baltimore?" Topic

WOW….. You take $1K for just food and stuff and not the room….

My van would be so packed full of stuff I would have to rent a U-Haul for the drive home…. :-)

If you can't go on that, I don't think my $300 USD for room, food and toys is going to get me far in Baltimore. Granted 4 of us share a room and I bring some food from home, but wow…

Unfortunately the 3 guys I go with are not going, I could stay with my In-Laws in MD but I would rather wear a cheese-grader for underwear…. HAHAHAHA

Just a few comments on a couple of recurring points.

There is a difference between the decision to move from the Penn Harris to the Host and the current decision. In the former case we had already outgrown the Penn Harris. We have not outgrown the Host. Even the backlog of vendors is turning out to be a myth.

Also, a dichotomy has been posed between what we do at conventions:

"Game, shop, and hang out with our wargame buddies."

and the corporate goals:

"To promote the historical miniatures gaming hobby and its relationship to the study of military history."

In my opinion anyway, the promotion of the hobby etc. is best accomplished by facilitating gaming, shopping, and hanging out with our wargame buddies at the conventions.

It has worked quite well. There are those who consider the conventions only a means to raise money to flush down money toilets liek prmotional videos and ostentatious give aways. But I always held such views to be heretical and counter productive.

One issue between the Host and the BCC has to do with the population density advantages of the latter. Logically if you are in a major metropolitan area, especially in the great northeastern megalopolis, you should be able to attract new blood. But most people who spend a weekend and a pot of money to game, shop, and hang out with wargame buddies are not your average citizen on the streets. The issue has to be how much easier or more attractive will it be for people in the nearby metropolitan areas to spend time in the BCC compared to Lancaster.

Ways to attract those not already strongly addicted to the already committed mass have been experimented with. ORIGINS a year or so back had special one day passes on the cheap, as did FALL IN! 03 in Timonium. The experiment will probably be repeated in some form. It sort of worked for ORIGINS 98. It pretty much didn't for Timonium.

Pat Condray

Excellent points Pat.

Of the many customers I speak with at the cons, very few if any will comment that "I really love coming here, but I wish it was held in an area where I could find fine dining and upscale hotels."

Considering that for the most part, you sleep and shower in your room and that is about it, what the need is for high end hotels in beyond me.

As far as the dining, I really dont' get that either, but that's just me, I have found plenty of good places to eat in Lancaster that don't cost an arm and a leg and where i don't have to wait two hours to eat battling it out with a sea of tourists in the process.

Somewhere along the line someone came up with the idea that if the show is moved to a major city, it will attract people in droves and folks who live in that city will take an interest and come to the show.

I live in Boston and there are plenty of conventions held in the two or three convention centers around town every week that I could care less about; if the theme does not interest me, I'm not going to attend.

The fact that I live in Boston will not pull me into the hall if it's not of interest to me, end of story.

We'll find out soon enough, less than a year to go and counting………..

Pat's comments bring up another good point that is not made clear frequently enough. It is not that a lot of people are against the idea of a move. In America we typically argue with our opposition by claiming they are reactionaries who will never accept change. Comparing the Penn-Harris to Host move to the current one highlights this well. The earlier move was from like to like. It was a move to a venue about an hour away and equidistant to many attendees. It was to a similar but larger facility. A second rate conference center with reasonable prices, and a similar setup (free parking, parking directly surrounding the venue, etc.). It was a comparable and very similar endeavour for the convention staff. If it was a bit more expensive it was far less of a change than the one proposed, and one that did not require heavy HMGS subsidies to attempt to hide these costs.

Baltimore is a major urban convention center with rules, regulations, realities of ingress/egress, less freedom and flexibility, and higher costs (including costs for things previously free such as parking). It was presented with few of these items properly addressed. Still. months later, many of them appear to still be up in the air. Orioles games were mentioned as some remote possibility when, in fact, they will occur 50% of the time on a July weekend. Problems and issues were brushed aside.

This move represents more of a change in the feel and makeup of the event than the Penn Harris to Host move. That move was solely done for more space. In this case the feeling is that ego, and desire for exposure and to act like big shots plays more of a role. No doubt a few more people will wander into the new setting but does anyone really believe it will be a statistically meaningful number? I mean what do you guys think? That 60 minutes and CNN will do prime time profiles and attract hundreds of new gamers?

Pat states that we are not over capacity at the Host. Many have acted as if we are grossly over. I suggest we are about at capacity. I was just to the Host at a convention that I am sure will soon be announced as record attendance. I was there from wednesday through Sunday. I did not reserve early enough to get a room at the Host but I spent most of my time there. I had a room within walking distance. Although my room was a few buildings down the heart and pulse of the con was at the Host. I chatted with friends in the bar, helped friends carry terrain for games down from their rooms. I played games and ran games. I was able to get into games I wanted to play. The hotel felt full but yet there was always extra room. I did not wait more than 5 minutes on a line for food. The showroom felt a little underutilized. I was left with the feeling that a few more games could have been squeezed in.

The dealer hall was full and seemed busy, yet I had no trouble moving about. In fact, except for the flea market, which is always a zoo, I didn't feel overcrowded once. Yes, the line for game reg when it opens is long. That woul dbe the case anywhere.

For all the constant whining about parking, for four days we had NO trouble parking. At worst we did a second lap once or twice before finding a spot. With all due apologies to those who had to park the Bentley on the grass once, I submit that this is an overstated problem. And, living in a big city myself I have to laugh at those who think parking at the Host is a hassle and that the solution is moving to a city. LOL!

Lastly, while this has been endlessly debated the people you really need to worry about are the ones not debating. You only argue about something like this because you enjoy and care about these conventions. The people you need to worry about are the ones who are disgusted and don't care.

Pat is comfortable at the Host, actually he stays at the Congress, selling his nice 15mm 17th Century figures as well as his boutique line of 20mm Spanish Civil War and his chock full of information pamphlets on the eras not to mention the rules for indecently small prices.

You owe and I owe him more than you will ever be able or care to understand. He started Historicon and ran it. Because HMGS was in its infancy and had little money he secured the early conventions which he guaranteed with his own money not to mention the hundreds of hours he put in to make them a success so as not to lose money.

Today, many mistake his bluntness for being mean spirited. But to me he will always be the one person without which HMGS would not have survived the early years and to me he will always be a friend who is willing to tell me what he thinks, even though I might not like or agree with what he says.

I see a strong and growing Society as good for the hobby and ultimately every gamer in the hobby. It is not so much that Historicon by its existence can actively recruit new gamers into the hobby but rather by estblishing a high profile the Society makes the hobby accessible to those who are interested while providing some benefits to those gamers in the hobby. While I would not presume to represent what Pat thinks, I think it is fair to say he is more conservative, seeing the conventions as providing a comfortable and inexpensive venue for those in the hobby.

Thus he is not in favor of the move or any move for that matter but if move we must he would favor the least expensive venue away from a large metropolitan area.
Pat argues there is plenty of room and as one who used to stuff em in like sardines I can see the possibilities but one need only read one of Pat's booklets to understand what he means by plenty of room. But, times and people have changed and what was acceptable 20 years ago is not today.

Thus, when Pat writes, "the promotion of the hobby etc. is best accomplished by facilitating gaming, shopping, and hanging out with our wargame buddies at the conventions," he is both right and wrong. While gaming, shopping and hanging out is important so too is the atmosphere and the venue for the promotion of the hobby.

So while Pat's appeal for the status quo is enchanting, if you follow him, as Ulysses did the Syrens, the ultimate destination for the hobby will be the rocks. There is nothing in the world that prevents historical miniatures gamers from gaming, shopping and hanging out in Baltimore while HMGS establishes a larger promotional profile.

Good gaming.

Bob Coggins

There is a logical misstep here. That if there is anything unsatisfactory or limiting about the current situation then any change is a good one.

The premise that having a convention in a big center in a city will somehow "raise the profile" of HMGS is utterly unsubstantiated. In that regard, the effort to raise the profile of HMGS, while imo a waste of time and money, would be better served by taking the thousands (tens of thousands) being squandered on this move and put it into some type of promotional or support campaign to bring people into the hobby.

Meanwhile the move and the way it was done has created resentment among some of the hardest core gamers. Since people come into this hobby in a grssroots way, if you want to grow it that is how you have to do it.

Thank you Pat. You almost confused me when you talked about the move from the Penn Harris with me at Historicon and I thought we had some disagreement about the degree of that move. But the values you espouse about the average gamer are right on the money. To me and thank you Double G as well, there are different parameters being used in this move as well as I believe different agendas. This doesn't make anyone's opinion bad, but slightly off course as to what the wargamer's are looking for. As was stated above, anyone who has a grand to spend on H-Con, you are blessed in my book. I will spend for room, food, admission and a few toys. If I do the flea market, but not next HCON, I will spend more and I will be spending more in Baltimore.

I guess the part about all of this that bothers me the most is in the end, we are all after the same thing; an enjoyable experience at the conventions gaming, shopping and spending time with friends we often get to see only at these cons, ie, three times per year.

I attend 3 gaming conventions and about 20 toy soldier shows per year, and only one of the toy soldier shows offers the same attractions that all 3 of the wargaming conventions do. There is something unique about gaming conventions that I enjoy so very much. I enjoy every single aspect of the conventions.

It is upsetting that we are being somehow split into two camps, those for and those against the move, because we all are in the same camp in that we all love this hobby.

As a business owner, I will be faced with a very difficult business decision about whether or not to attend Historicon in 2010 and many other dealers will be too; also, many gamers will be faced with the same decision, both whether or not to attend and whether or not to be a GM and run a game.

In the end, we all just want what's best for the convention and for the hobby as well. None of us truly want to see HMGS, the convention, the dealers and most importantly, the attendees suffer. I count many dealers and many customers as friends first and foremost.

On that, we are all on the same page and we really need to work together to ensure these conventions remain an enjoyable event to attend for all of us.

Civil,

Your representations couldn't be further from what I am attempting to write and say. Historicon promotes the hobby by its existence. Whether it is held in Baltimore or Lancaster its basics are the same for existing gamers, games, shoping and friendship. I have come to the realisation that our exitence promotes the hobby and active promotion does little.

The difference is the venue, just as with a play there is a vast difference between Broadway and Pougkeepsie so too is there a difference between a major city and a small city.

A 900 room night block at the Host will not raise our profile but a 900 room night block with the Holiday Inn in Baltimore will raise it with the corporation and with the Sheridan, Radisson and Days Inn. A successful convention at the Host will not raise our profile but a successful conveniton at the BCC will raise the profile of the hobby with every convention center east of the Mississippi as well as with every big city convention bureau.

A one off TV piece on the evening news in Lancaster County will not raise our profile but a 5 minute promotional piece within one or more of the 5 morning shows will raise our profile.

So too can we trade on our increased profile when we invite historians to give talks, Baltimore being an infinitely greater venue than Lancaster in the minds of many.

The bottom line is your premise that an increase in profile is "unsubstantiated" is incorrect and misleading because it is based on the false premise that increasing the profile must be active when in fact it is passive.

Good Gaming.

Bob Coggins

Bob: I understand what you are trying to say. I just disagree that moving to Baltimore and being probably the 200 largest event at BCC next year will generate any measurable "expand the hobby results." I think it is the kind of vague, unmeasurable plus that is always used to support something when facts are unavailable.

But if the move to Baltimore gets a lot of press and brings hundreds of new people into the hobby I will come on this board and admit I was wrong.

Hundreds more than making up the hundreds we are losing by moving.

A 900 room night block at the Host will not raise our profile but a 900 room night block with the Holiday Inn in Baltimore will raise it with the corporation and with the Sheridan, Radisson and Days Inn. A successful convention at the Host will not raise our profile but a successful conveniton at the BCC will raise the profile of the hobby with every convention center east of the Mississippi as well as with every big city convention bureau.

A one off TV piece on the evening news in Lancaster County will not raise our profile but a 5 minute promotional piece within one or more of the 5 morning shows will raise our profile.

So too can we trade on our increased profile when we invite historians to give talks, Baltimore being an infinitely greater venue than Lancaster in the minds of many.

The bottom line is your premise that an increase in profile is "unsubstantiated" is incorrect and misleading because it is based on the false premise that increasing the profile must be active when in fact it is passive.

Good Gaming.

Bob Coggins

What are you basing this statement on? There are no studies done stating that we will increase the numbers if we move to BCC.

How do we know our "profile" will be raised? What will you use to gauge this "profile raise"? What metrics are going to be used to determine the success of this move?

My issue with the whole thing is there are too many unsubstantiated and unqualified comments. I'd like to see numbers and facts.

Sorry to say but East conventions are a drop in the bucket in the convention and conference field. 900 room nights is a lot, but not uncommon. The company I work for organizes 35-40 events every year comparable to a East convention, maybe not in attendee numbers, but certainly budgetary, and we're just one Association Management Company of many across the country. Really the only thing that sets East cons apart is our square footage requirement.

Actually its 900 room nights at the Host. But there is an additional 900 to 1000 room nights at local hotels. I wrote 900 in the Holiday Inn and 600 in the Days Inn. That is siginificant. So too is a treasury of $300,000 and a record of 25 years of successful events.

One of 200 events? If only you knew the mess that is the politicized BC Bureau! Currently it would be fortunate to have 200 events in 3 years and you can look it up.

I never claimed we will be guaranteed to gain new gamers. I only represented that by raising our profile those who may have the prediliction to play with historical miniature will see their options and opportunities.

Finally there is this. To me there is nothing more ameniable than having a morining coffee on the balcony of the Light Street Pavillion ($2.00) while watching the boats and people ply their way across the Inner Harbor. Neither is there a better end to a gaming day than a coffee and brandy ($15 or so) in the penthouse bar in the Hyatt overlooking the Inner Harbor. It is stunning and it is only a 5 minute walk from the BCC.

But for those who don't give a sh-- there are MacDonalds and Burger Kings.

Good Gaming.

Bob Coggins

YES. I think it is a good move. Baltimore has more space, more amenities, closer airports, a train and tram, bus, etc. so it will be easier to get there and will draw more people from the heavily populated east coast. Yes, it will be more expensive, but given the aging nature of the people playing mini games, I think it will continue to draw a large audience and hopefully get far media coverage.

There are plenty of decent, mid-range hotels near BWI. With my AARP discount, I can get a room at one for about $67 USD a night. Get a room with two doubles, split with someone, and that's a cheap con.

Unfortunately, there is a potential deal-breaker. The light rail from BWI to the BCC only operates until 11 pm. At the cons, I hang out with friends way late, often till 1 am, sometimes past 3. Not a problem at the BCC, which will be open to us round the clock, but I'm not enthused about driving in every day from the hotel since I can stay home and do that for a little extra driving and a lot less cost. If you're not a night owl, this won't be a problem.

On the other hand, Linthicum is home to one of the top crab cake restaurants in the Baltimore-Washington area, according to the Washington Post's food critics. G&M Seafood Restaurant and Lounge, 804 Hammonds Ferry Rd., Linthicum Heights, 410-636-1777; gandmrestaurant.com. Eight-ounce jumbo-lump crab cake, $16.95; two crab cakes, $24.50 USD

I'll be there, but exactly how, I haven't yet figured out. Still looking for the right mix of cost and convenience.

If I had to make a prediction it's this: Baltimore will have mixed results. There will be problems that some will overcome and some will not. Some will think it's great, some will not (or not even go).

The July HMGS event will no longer 'feel' like the old Historicon. It will be something new and different because of the location, logistics and set up. Again, some will love it, some will not.

Cold Wars will become the "new" Historicon and the two offseason gaming events will become one and happen in the Fall in Lancaster.

"What metrics are going to be used to determine the success of this move?"

That is an easy one. Numbers. I believe the first year will be a free pass, and unless the reaction is so overwhelmingly negative from those that actually attend, the second year will be based on measuring the convention by number of attendees. Failing that, then it would most likely move again, but who knows where.

Please note, the caveat, if you will, will be the reaction to thost that attended in 2010 on ease of access into and out of the facility, and cost. 2011 will live or die on those reactions. My guess anyway.

One thing I am always amazed at is the lack of figure manufacturers at all three HMGSE cons. Now it seems Old Glory 15s has dropped out, I am guessing, as a result of a business decision of cost benefit. I am not picking on them, as there are plenty that never even attended, or perhaps couldn't get in, or whatever. I don't know.

My own opinion is that if HMGSE isn't able to raise the ante by attracting more actual manufactures, then the numbers will never rise significantly beyond what they are now – give or take a few hundred. The problem here is the diverse locations these companies come from, everywhere from the West coast, to the UK.

The BCC, or any larger facility, offers such companies room and potentially more attendees to make it worth their while. But this may be a chicken and the egg sort of thing, as to who will come first, more manufacturers or more attendees? A lack of one could deter the other.

"One thing I am always amazed at is the lack of figure manufacturers at all three HMGSE cons."

And just who might you be referring to? Do you mean US manufacturers or UK?

If you mean UK, do you honestly expect a UK figure manufacturer to hump product across the Atlantic Ocean to bring to Historicon when there are US distributors for every major UK manufacturer who cannot justify the expense?

So who's missing that you feel should be there?

Well, if this convention is so important, then yes, I think they should be there. Selling is one thing, but being there to show product lines and take orders later, is quite another, and largely missing.

One thing I have heard many comment on is that many figure manufactures can't even get photos of all their wares up on line, yet expect people to buy them sight unseen. I am not aware that this is a very good busines practice.

And perhaps it is just me, but I walk through the dealer area year after year, seeing the same stuff (lines). If I haven't bought it in the previous ten years, I doubt I will now.

But let me reverse the question, as the list will be much shorter. Just how many figure manufacturers are there? I think only a handful.

People who carry the lines have to make a living too, and have to add on their own profit, making the figures a bit more expensive to buy, and only carry limited stock anyway. Further, I don't know how many times they run out of this, or it just wasn't in stock as the manufacturer hadn't shipped it yet (usually from overseas).

My point is, that without significantly changing what is at Hcon, you are not going to attract more attendees, new hotel, old hotel, whatever, as what is there new for people to really come back for to see, other than games? Granted, my opinion.

"One thing I am always amazed at is the lack of figure manufacturers at all three HMGSE cons. Now it seems Old Glory 15s has dropped out, I am guessing, as a result of a business decision of cost benefit. I am not picking on them, as there are plenty that never even attended, or perhaps couldn't get in, or whatever. I don't know.

My own opinion is that if HMGSE isn't able to raise the ante by attracting more actual manufactures, then the numbers will never rise significantly beyond what they are now – give or take a few hundred. The problem here is the diverse locations these companies come from, everywhere from the West coast, to the UK."

With the Internet I suspect the conventions are less vital to dealers. But if dealers are making business decisions not to come:

1. Is it smart to increase direct costs, as well as indirectly siphoning possible sales dollars to cover attendees additional hotel, travel, and parking costs?

2. Does this undermine the argument that there are so many dealers lining up who can't get into historicon?

My point is, that without significantly changing what is at Hcon, you are not going to attract more attendees, new hotel, old hotel, whatever, as what is there new for people to really come back for to see, other than games? Granted, my opinion.

……….. There are new miniatures coming out all the time. I'm shocked how well the gaming industry seems to be doing in spite of the economy. Even our local hobby shop is booming. As for attracting new attendees, wargamers are and have always been the ambassadors of the hobby, something this BoD has forgotten or never learned. Shopping is only one part of what Historicon is to the membership. Friends, gaming, drinking and sharing a passion for the hobby is why we go. Not the crab cakes and brandy.

Mike B

"What metrics are going to be used to determine the success of this move?"

That is an easy one. Numbers. I believe the first year will be a free pass, and unless the reaction is so overwhelmingly negative from those that actually attend, the second year will be based on measuring the convention by number of attendees. Failing that, then it would most likely move again, but who knows where.

Really? Assume, for a second the numbers stayed the same.

How can you quantify those who refused to come to the BCC? How can you quantify previous attendees who have come as the con is not held at the Host? How can you quantify new attendees? How do you determine if the new or previously absent attendees came because the con is held in a major urban center? How would you determine if the new or newly returned attendees were attracted to the con due to easier access, via nearby airport access and light rail? What about the attributes Bob waxes so lyrically about, watching people on there boats or drinking in the Hyatt penthouse bar? (For my own take on that I'll refer you to Double G's poignant second paragraph from his 9:18 am, Jul 25 entry)

The numbers, by themselves will mean squat unless they deviate greatly from the preceeding years numbers. You have no idea how to determine if the supossed attributes Baltimore offers us have made any difference in attendence, in attracting newly returning gamers or in attracting brand new gamers.

BTW, no one has answered Long Island Gamers questions. They haven't answered in the weeks I've been reading these threads, they didn't answer them at the business meeting at Historicon, and they won't answer them today. SSDD!

Ralph

Ralph:

The feedback will speak for itself in 2010. The numbers will speak for themselves both years. If they increase, who cares why, as that is the goal. Nothing else need be done at that point.

CD:

You may be right about the internet, but I stand by my earlier comment about manufacturers not posting pictures of all their lines. Car shows are not held to sell cars at while there. They are held to promote new models and generate sales at a later date.

I cannot comment on your other points about increased costs to attendees, as only time will tell, but you raise valid points.

As to dealers waiting to get in, I have no idea where that stands now. It will be interesting to see how many come in 2010.

That is an easy one. Numbers. I believe the first year will be a free pass, and unless the reaction is so overwhelmingly negative from those that actually attend, the second year will be based on measuring the convention by number of attendees. Failing that, then it would most likely move again, but who knows where.

Please note, the caveat, if you will, will be the reaction to those that attended in 2010 on ease of access into and out of the facility, and cost. 2011 will live or die on those reactions. My guess anyway.

Ok – so let's say I give you numbers. I believe there should be three sets of number that determine success:

1) The amount of paying customers attending the show

2) Net profitability of the show

3) Dealer profitability

This show has to stand like a triangle – if one of the numbers is off, then the triangle is going to weaken.

Pete Panzari feels that, by moving to BCC, we can attract 1 in 12 people who have only attended Historicon once. There are no studies showing how many people from the north east region will be lost. Dudley feels that if the attendance is off by 15% in 2010, but only off by 10% in 2011, we would consider that a step in the right direction and possibly keep HCon at BCC. If we're off by 10% in 2011, is that growing our hobby?

Since there is no data about how many people are not going, we can't speculate about the income. If HCon is more profitable in BCC, is that considered a success? If we make more money but lose people, how does that grow the hobby?

Lastly, dealer profitability. If the dealers make less money and don't come back, the con will suffer considerably – everyone can agree with that.

My main issues are:

The information gathered, at best, is weak. Mattes comes close to gathering the required data, but misses the crucial question "what and who will we lose by moving to BCC".

There is no metric to say this move is a success or failure. If the con loses attendance and takes three years to come back to levels at Lancaster, is that a success?

People say that moving to BCC will give us "greater exposure". Greater exposure to what? How do we measure that exposure and more importantly, how do we capitalize on exposure?

Historygamer, I presented these questions to the BoD on the Saturday meeting – there are no answers (although Pete did promise to have some metrics in place to determine success).

I would urge you to look at this from a business perspective rather than a "I like\ hate Baltimore" perspective. When you do, it gets scary. Failing to plan is like planning to fail.

But at least there will be a raftload of four star hotels for attendees to stay at, which by the endless complaints about how the hotels in Lancaster are all dumps, THIS seems to be the biggest concern of many attendees.

I mean afterall, you sleep and shower at the hotel, then are gone all day and night shopping and gaming, so a four star luxury hotel SHOULD be #1 on everyone's list of priorities.

Oh and lets not forget the four star hotels out by the airport because I've been corrected and told all of them are top shelf hotels; sure, the Red Roof Inn and Motel six for 49.00 a night must be palaces compared to the dumps in Lancaster, anyone should know that for Pete's sake.

CD:

I can't say I disagree with you at all. I personally would view a drop in 2011, as compared to the number of attendees at Hcon 2008, as a failure, but that is just me.

I would point out that there is no metric to gauge dealer profits other than whether they come back or not. It seems at cons some dealers do better than others for no apparent reason, so that is kind of hard to nail down.

Double G:

There are dive hotels in Lancaster that charge a lot more than $49 USD a night, such as the twin econo lodges just up the road (remember, I stayed in the History of Tobbacco room a few years ago), and the old Italian Villa. I would also point out that the Red Roof in Lancaster, which many attendees stay at for Hcon and CW, charges more at either show than $49 USD a night. There is a reason for that. Lancaster is regarded as a tourist location year round. BWI and its environs are business oriented and largely deserted on weekends since the businesses they draw off of are not open then, and thus reduced rates can be found. Still, even for a few bucks in savings, I would rather pay more to stay close than ride the light rail back and forth to save a few bucks. Just FYI, but my hotel bill for the Host was $129 USD a night, so not exactly cheap, though by summer Lancaster standards, not bad either.

Here is my take, that I know you are all dying to hear. The BCC will not be judged a succees or failure on the hotels, but on the parking, games, dealers, and ease of ingress/egress for everyone.

anyone should know that for Pete's sake.

Great play on words. The Peter Panzericon

"The BCC will not be judged a succees or failure on the hotels, but on the parking, games, dealers, and ease of ingress/egress for everyone."

I couldn't agree more. These are the most important issues.

Also, coffee and brandy at the motel 6 is 75 cents. Nice view of the Continental Airlines hanger. The party is on me!

While you're all wondering about numbers don't forget that the attendence figures will be bloated by those attending just to participate in the GW Tourneys. (Like at Timonium) Those will be counted as attendees, but never broke out, and sufficently strained to reflect the actual numbers of historical miniatures attendees! Even though as soon as they're finished gaming they scatter to the winds, as they don't want to be around "us"! The story will be spun otherwise though, as is Timonium to this day!!!!!

First, my vote – no.

Second, Here is a metric to consider – how many games (other than tournaments) are run by GM's every year. Determine the trend (simply plotting the numbers will be fine). Now add to that plot, the number of games run by GM's in 2010, and follow up with 2011. That should certainly be considered, especially as an indicator of the ingress/egress problem. This should be looked at as a ratio – of games to attendees.

So if (example numbers only) this year we had 3000 attendees at Historicon, and 500 games, that is 6:1. If, in two years, we go up to 4800 attendees (a miracle occurred), but we only go up to 600 games, then that would be 8:1. An indication that the venue is (possibly) not very welcoming to GM's.

It will be interesting to see how many games-to-attendees we get in Cold Wars 2010, or Fall In 2010 (which should be weird – first Post Baltimore, first Lancaster in a while, and first Halloween weekend).

Chuck

ps – that brings up an interesting point – which HMGS-E convention has the highest ratio of games to attendees?

Pete Panzari feels that, by moving to BCC, we can attract 1 in 12 people who have only attended Historicon once. There are no studies showing how many people from the north east region will be lost. Dudley feels that if the attendance is off by 15% in 2010, but only off by 10% in 2011, we would consider that a step in the right direction and possibly keep HCon at BCC. If we're off by 10% in 2011, is that growing our hobby?

Only 2 comments.

1st- 2011 numbers won't factor because a decision to stay for 2012 or beyond and signing a contract will likely have to be made in advance of the 2nd convention at the BCC.

2nd- More attendees would grow the convention, but increased numbers in and of themselves does not equate to new people gaming, or growing the hobby. It could simply be a demographic shift in gamers that end up attending a Historicon in an area and at a cost and convenience factor that benefits them.

Goldwrym:

2011 may not go if the feeling from 2010 is overwhelmingly against, but if it does, it will indeed be judged by numbers.

I completely agree with your second point, but again, if numbers are the metric it really doesn't matter where they come from, as long as they come.

cturnitsa:

I respectfully disagree about the number of games put on being a qualifiying metric for successs, unless they are so low as to kill it as a gaming con. The reason why is simple. HMGSE never made a determination as to how many games were enough. Perhaps some mind brighter than mine could come up with a formula, that given X number of attendees, they only needed Y number of games, and that any more were a waste of space. Since HMGSE has no idea how many it needs, or how many peoole actually play (some just shop, look, are the games full? Half? Other?), then no number of games can be determined to be a measure of success or failure. You need what you need, but since we don't know how many people will attend, then how many do we need?

2011 may not go if the feeling from 2010 is overwhelmingly against, but if it does, it will indeed be judged by numbers.

My comment was made assuming a 2011 show at BCC, since the contract was for 2 years or at least the date was reserved for 2011. I'm really speaking to a next step or where does Historicon go in 2012. Decisions for that have to be made no matter what happens in 2010 and without the benefit of a 2nd data point. I think that gets lost when people talk about 2 years to see how things shake out, because in reality it is really only 1 shot before determining what to do. I would not wish the job of a 2010 BoD on anyone…

I completely agree with your second point, but again, if numbers are the metric it really doesn't matter where they come from, as long as they come.

That is only if numbers are what is valued.

I disagree from a philosophical standpoint that more is always better in nurturing a historical gaming convention experience. Some folks complain that an inexpensive venue (Lancaster) is not always better, because they are seeking a metropolitan environment, better transportation options, etc. I understand that. Along a similar mode of thinking but in slight contrast, I seek the social experience as a primary thing and to me crowds do not necessarily add to that. I actually find Cold Wars a more *relaxing* show than Historicon. You don't get that with metrics. It's a gut feeling on what you enjoy and how you feel after the weekend is over. YMMV.

That is only if numbers are what is valued.

I disagree from a philosophical standpoint that more is always better in nurturing a historical gaming convention experience. Some folks complain that an inexpensive venue (Lancaster) is not always better, because they are seeking a metropolitan environment, better transportation options, etc. I understand that. Along a similar mode of thinking but in slight contrast, I seek the social experience as a primary thing and to me crowds do not necessarily add to that. I actually find Cold Wars a more *relaxing* show than Historicon. You don't get that with metrics. It's a gut feeling on what you enjoy and how you feel after the weekend is over. YMMV

Now here comes the second half of the problem. Everyone has a different definition of success. The original stated goal of moving HCon was to promote and grow the hobby. People have stated that we outgrew the Host. If there is nothing in place to measure success, then we should have left the con at Lancaster.

Goldwyrm, I agree with you. The con should be a relaxing place where we can all have fun – and that can't always be measured – it's known as a "soft benefit". What I'm trying to understand is:

1) What was the determining factor stating we have outgrown Lancaster?
2) Why Baltimore of all places
3) Why doesn't anyone know the full affect of moving the convention

How can I possibly disagree with Bob Coggins when he says things about me that cause me to blush. But for all that, he is way off base on the advantages of having a convention with declining attendance in a vastly more expensive and inconvenient venue.

Not to be repetitious. But most of us dig gaming, shopping (or in the case of some of us, selling), and hanging out with old and new wargame buddies (sometimes including Bob.)

Most of us don't like off site or overpriced parking (read pay parking), get no great thrill from light rail riding, and would rather spend our money on toy soldiers than five star hotels.

There are exceptions. And I wish them luck in establishing a viable and thriving five star hotel afficionado society. But they aren't us.

Now several Floridians I've discussed the move with are pleased. Baltimore means they don't have to rent a car at BWI for the weekend to get to and from Lancaster. But for GMs and dealers that isn't a viable option. I'm willing to bet that over 80% of our attendance consists of people who arrive by personal automobile.

And as for the beacon of light in a dark world of non toy soldier players who live around the BCC, well, I guess we proved how efficacious that was when we took FALL IN! 03 to Timonium and lost $22,000.

Unless we are very, very lucky BCC could well be Timonium on steroids. We could add a zero to the loss figure and wipe out HMGS EAST.

For the record, I understand that HISTORICON 09 drew somewhat less than HISTORICON 08. And the dealer area was NOT SOLD OUT.

But in spite of the out of the way location, Bob Coggins worries about not attracting speakers (much as I love them they are definitely behind the big three in my value system) we had more than ever at HISTORICON 09.

With an increase in the University and War College programs (both splendid, but not revenue producing) and a decrease in gamers and dealers both of whom generate revenue for the corporation, I suspect that HISTORICON 09 will produce less cash flow than intended.

If any of you bothered to review the financial documents posted on the hmgs east issues files, you might have noticed that HMGS EAST budgeted to lose about $21,639 this year. That was based on the assumption that COLDWARS would clear $10,570, and HISTORICON $18,216. In reality COLDWARS cleared less than $5,000. And with additions to the expense only features and decreases in the revenue producing features, does anyone want to bet me that the actual positive cash flow will be less than $18,216?

Bob asserted that if we don't blow a fortune moving to an overpriced urban venue we will go to hell in a hack. But let's focus on history instead of sci-fi and fantasy. We've sought affordable and convenient venues to game,shop, and hang out with our wargame buddies for the past 26 years and grown in size and positive cash flow, thriving in our pursuit of the HMGS goals.

The nearest we've come to going to hell in a hack was Timonium.

I sincerely hope that Bob Coggins is not as far wrong in his assessment of my contributions to the hobby as he obviously is in his visions for the future course of HMGS.

Of course I'll be there. And I'll be looking for ways to keep down cost and inconvenience. Car pooling to the BWI complex? Packing the hotel rooms?

There is a chance we can survive BCC. I've been to ORIGINS at the Greater Columbus Convention Center. It is more expensive and less convenient than the Lancaster Host. It also loses money more often than HMGS EAST conventions to date. But it can be done. And maybe, just maybe we can survive BCC.

For those counting on COLDWARS and FALL IN to keep us afloat while we flush money down the BCC toilet, don't bet on it. We've proven that we can make practically nothing on a reasonably full COLDWARS. And over the life of the convention FALL IN has lost more than it has taken in.

Pat Condray (WKPP)

I've been to ORIGINS at the Greater Columbus Convention Center. It is more expensive and less convenient than the Lancaster Host.

Me too. I was at Origins 2008 in Columbus. The convention center was far superior to the Host. In fact, I recall saying to my wife who accompanied me that I wish Historicon would move to a similar facility. More convenient, better accommodations. More expensive? Well, Origins registration has always been more expensive. I don't think that's a good comparison.

Even though I live in Baltimore and even though Pat Condray and I may disagree about the need to move, Baltimore would not have been my first choice.

Hampton Roads was my favorite. Its facility is first class for our needs, a large convention center with a large parking lot to which 4 hotels are attached. On first glance its location may seem off center but its a straight shot south from N.E., Del and N.J. and hardly a longer trek in time. It is also a shorter drive from those who live south of D.C. From the south its much closer to the Carolinas, Georgia and Northern Florida.

Nevertheless, the BCC is the choice and we will most likely be there for 2 years. Whether or not we make or lose money is yet to be determined.

I would note the increased sponsorship at this year's Historicon by small companies local to Lancaster. Baltimore being a large city, there are lots of potential sponsors just waiting to get federal tax credit with their contributions and support for not for profit corporations. And if I don't miss my bet they can be used to defray expenses.

There are hundreds of companies who have a political interest in the success of the mayor and city council and who use such non-profit contributions to develop good will for those whom they support. Historicon presented by Tidy Bowl – I like it. But seriously there is no reason that a company such as M&T Bank would not be interested in putting its name on the tickets and having their writtien material included in our hand-out. Nor is it beyond the pale to think HMGS cannot get the support of a beer company. And I will not even stoop to mention the large government contractors who are always looking to curry favor with politicians by making them look good.

My concern is the board is neither motivated nor savy or experienced enough to take advantage. Hopefully Bob Giglio is.

Good Gaming.

Bob Coggins

In Giglio we trust!!

Bob, I disagreed with the Baltimore move but will make the best of it like many others. I do like your style about having a favorite beverage or two overlooking the harbor, the marina, the bay, the ocean etc. That has always been one of my favorite things, a drink by the water. Oh and I could also agree with a Hampton convention. Although very accessible from NY, NJ via Delaware/MD I'm not sure my northern bretheren can appreciate the extra driving. That reminds me, gotta make a reservation.

Also Bob, I read your tribute above to Pat Condray and it is well received by those of us who have long known Pat. As far as Pat's philosophy of "what do I get for my 5 bucks", I don't think it has been a bad philosophy at all. In the early wargaming days, I had very little actual disposable income. With credit cards I had more. I have since learned that credit cards carry a huge financial penalty for their use by most of society. And I thought a night in a hotel was something really special but a little hard on the budget. Now that I'm a lot older, I can afford to spend more on my hobbies. But I'm also rapidly closing in on retirement age which gives me pause. On the one hand I will not lack for figures to paint in retirement or games to play. Now do I really need to spend $300 USD on a two night stay in Baltimore. Well I can with a roommate, but otherwise I'm not sure how often I will do that in the future. But there is always a day trip here or there like the old days that will keep me in lead, paint, and rulesets for gaming. And some new cons south of me, most of them are alluring with their, I'd say bargain prices and are very promising little cons.

Just one comment on Pete's list. Having worked many years for the US Postal Service before leaving for greener pastures (smart move I'd say), I'm willing to bet that his list is no good for contacting hardly anyone if it's more than 3 to 5 years old. Those people have moved and the forwarding expires in 12-18 months depending on the type of mail but even with 18 mos that list should be no good. You might be better off buying a commercial list with your 18-35; family income $50,000 and over, urban, loves computer and video games; spends $5,000 yr or so on gadgets etc. Hey sounds like Games Workshop kids doesn't it?

Talk about beating a dead horse. Enough with this string. you all are fighting magnificent egos here. You all elected this board, live with it.I will see You at bcc. Its the vendors that have the most to loose and we probably will.

I will see You at BCC

I don't think so – Cold Wars or Fall In perhaps.

Bob, you're late. Do you want to vote? I closed the voting a long time ago and the nays won hands down. Now we're just a bunch of friends having a chat. We've even gotten Pat Condray and Bob Coggins to say nice things about each other.
I say the editor Mr. Bill can squash this whenever he feels like it. Come join us.

I closed the voting a long time ago and the nays won hands down.

Yup. That scientific poll that was not an official poll.

Count me in as a "yea" vote.

Treppiede, since you voted on July 20 that you agree with the move and just voted again that you agree with the move I will have to vote a 2nd time that I am not in favor of it. Sort of like canceling out your 2nd vote. This is fun stuff.

If you had 3-8 thousand you could start that Vegas show…

I vote yes again to cancel out Disco Joe's no vote. Can we even be sure that he's an HMGS-East member? If he isn't then he gets no vote. Voter fraud! Voter fraud!!!

What in the world would anyone need 8 large for in Baltimore at the BCC, it's not that expensive to get to unless you are flying first class and staying at a five star hotel.

8 grand?