"How Many HMGS Members Want HCON to Move to Baltimore?" Topic

Double G my cat left you a present in her box. Looks like tootsie rolls.

You first; have a nice big taste and get back to me………………

Trudging back to the topic at hand…

Just thinking that the people most affected by the move will be the GMs. Vendors and Fleamarketeers will still show up (for the most part) if they think there will be people with $$$ to spend. Tournament people will show if there is to be a tournament that aligns with their period/rules preference. Shoppers will show up for the vendor area and the fleamarket. People who show up to play games will be expecting them to be there. But what if they are not? The GMs need to be won over, especially the ones who run expansive, "glossy" games, or this will end up being a big empty room. As someone who runs games about half the time, I've definitely got VERY cold feet about this…

Double G, they do look tempting. You're a lucky person.

not a member, but I vote no…its an easy drive if your coming from Pittsburgh, but Baltimore actually isn't that much farther…

Brad :)

No.

My much, much bigger disappointment is Fall-In moving from Gettysburg, which, as a publisher ACW author, is my Mecca.

I will not attend Hcon. I do not want to pay for parking, then walk a distance to get to the BCC. At the Host, I always had a short walk. Also, walking to my vehicle in Baltimore at night does not thrill me.

My cat votes No. She misses her Daddy when I go away.

Yes

"My cat votes No. She misses he Daddy when I go away."

I bet she does………..

Double G, she sends her regards. She believes that a litter box is like a box of chocolates, but you already know what your're going to get.

Since the two of you are so close, feel free to bring her to Fall In, I'd really like to meet her.

Yeah, why don't the two of you stop by my booth, ok?

I would have voted no, but never expressed an opinion to a board member when I had plenty of opportunities. My bad.

I will attend Historicon in Baltimore, and will sign up to run games too.

As to this statement,
"Since absolutely no thought was given to logistics for those who want to run games, or participate in tournaments."

The blue book that was given out at the con resolved a lot of my concerns. Is that booklet available online?

According to the blue book, parking will be $8 USD or $10 USD a day (depending on whether there are Orioles games on those days) and parking is free for GM's (though I'm not sure if free parking for GM's is for every day or just the days you are running events).

Also according to the blue book, people running large multi-day games can leave them set up overnight in a locked room that they will have a key for. So some thought for those running games appears to have been considered.

Unfortunately, I think the cost to dealers will be higher, which may reduce the number of dealers that actually attend. I am very excited about the possibility of a larger flea market room. I LOVE the flea market, especially since I sold a bunch of stuff this year instead of just spending a lot of money there.

I'm also excited that at least one gaming friend who has moved away to another part of the country may decide to fly in for the con since the airline tickets to BWI are very affordable.

I very much hope that in the end, we are all ecstatic because everything worked out so well.

I would have voted no, but never expressed an opinion to a board member when I had plenty of opportunities. My bad.

I will attend Historicon in Baltimore, and will sign up to run games too.

As to this statement,
"Since absolutely no thought was given to logistics for those who want to run games, or participate in tournaments."

The blue book that was circulated resolved a lot of my concerns. Is that booklet available online?

According to the blue book, parking will be $8 USD or $10 USD a day (depending on whether there are Orioles games on those days) and parking is free for GM's (though I'm not sure if free parking for GM's is for every day or just the days you are running events).

Also according to the blue book, people running large multi-day games can leave them set up overnight in a locked room that they will have a key for. So some thought for those running games appears to have been considered.

Unfortunately, I think the cost to dealers will be higher, which may reduce the number of dealers that actually attend. I am very excited about the possibility of a larger flea market room. I LOVE the flea market, especially since I sold a bunch of stuff.

I'm also excited that at least one gaming friend who has moved away to another part of the country may decide to fly in for the con since the airline tickets to BWI are very affordable.

I very much hope that in the end, we are all ecstatic because everything worked out so well.

Sorry Double G. First I don't even know your business name. It probably isn't a restaurant although I wonder. Second, I would not even think of torturing you with 2 and half hours of an unhappy cat in a cage YOWLING every five seconds. My God if we subjected the Taliban to this they'd surrender and we would be called war criminals. That's how bad it is. Worse than waterboarding by a long stretch. EE- YOWL! EE-YOWL! Kind of like that.

an unhappy cat in a cage YOWLING every five seconds.

You should add a disclaimer to that-

Any likeness to any one or multiple groups of wargamers and their opinions on the internet is purely coincidental.

VonLoudon, you could let her out of the cage and let her wander around. There are afew dealers who bring their pets with them to the show as they are there for five days and maybe they cannot find someone to watch their pets.

That will go over huge I am sure at the BCC; not going to happen, liability issues and all.

Dogs are cool but Cats are the bomb, my girlfriend and I have two, one of them loves to go for rides in my jeep, I could take her to a con and she wouldn't make a sound the entire 7 hour ride………….

Goldwyrm, good analogy and it cuts both ways, right?
Double G, there are a couple of cool dogs at the tennis barn I've seen and they are very well behaved, almost invisible. I'm afraid she might get eaten by one of them! What kind of drugs do you give the cat? I've been bitten badly by my own kitty at the vets. High strung Tortie, but I wouldn't trade her for any other cat. Did you ever see the motorcycle riding cat in action? That was very cool. Kitty's gone now but she was hot stuff on that bike.

Goldwyrm, good analogy and it cuts both ways, right?

Of course. Meow.

No. It's more like EEEE-YOWLLL!!

Nope….

Hi All –

We are updating the Baltimore Hcon 2010 "Green Book" and there will be a mailing (for those not at Hcon '09) and it will be posted online in PDF format shortly.

I was appointed to Member Communications at the Historicon 2009 Board – I will do my best to keep the communication lines open. My email is Outreach@hmgs.org

Heather Blush
Vice President – Member Communications,
Education and Outreach

Don't like moving H-con but will give Baltimore a chance, make a long story short though, NO

Don't like moving H-con

I wonder if you liked the move from the Penn Harris to Lancaster Host?

If HCon did not move each time someone voiced a complaint, then it'd still be at a facility worse than the Host.

Let's give this an opportunity to succeed, and we all should try our best to go along with the relocation of the convention and make it a success, for the good of the hobby.

Suppose it increases attendance? Suppose the attendance costs are relatively the same in the end? Suppose the convention gains more national and international attention?

Suppose it increases attendance? Suppose the attendance costs are relatively the same in the end? Suppose the convention gains more national and international attention?

Those are pretty big supposes. Were any studies done to back these up?

"Suppose it increases attendance? Suppose the attendance costs are relatively the same in the end? Suppose the convention gains more national and international attention?"

Well while we are doing fantasy suppose I won the power ball lottery without purchasing a ticket? Suppose Pennsylvania passes its budget on time which it hasn't the last 7 years. Suppose I became the king of the world?

Suppose it increases attendance; I thought that was the whole point of the move so it will be near a major airport and attendance would bump as a result.

Suppose the attendance costs are relatively the same in the end? The cost of going to Lancaster is going to be relatively the same as Baltimore? That's you trying to be funny right?

Suppose the convention gains more national and international attention? So is that the purpose of the con, to garner national and international attention; I thought the point was for gamers to get together, game, shop and hang out with their friends and have a good time.

Silly me.

And please; do not try to compare the move from the Penn Harris to Lancaster to the move from Lancaster to Baltimore, don't even go there.

Talk about apples to hand grenades.

Wow.

VonLoudon, no drugs required for the cat, she volunteers for the rides, basically hopping into the jeep whenever she is outside and sees me walking towards the jeep.

She must be part dog as she follows me everywhere I go, she is too funny for words…….

Let's give this an opportunity to succeed, and we all should try our best to go along with the relocation of the convention and make it a success, for the good of the hobby.

EEEE-YOWLLL!!

So what will all those who vote NO do next summer?

Go to Cold Wars, Fall In and maybe just go to Lancaster with the family for a relaxing vacation.

I thought the point was for gamers to get together, game, shop and hang out with their friends and have a good time.

That's part of it, but the main point of the cons is to expand and grow the hobby, right? From the HMGS-East by-laws: the running of educational programs promoting historical miniature gaming and military history.

Silly me.

Yup. You are being silly.

And please; do not try to compare the move from the Penn Harris to Lancaster to the move from Lancaster to Baltimore, don't even go there.

Talk about apples to hand grenades.

Wow.

It's a very good comparison.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary that suggests that it is not a good comparison?

So what will all those who vote NO do next summer?

Probably sit home whining and complaining.

Were any studies done to back these up?

Yes, as best can be afforded and conduced by a volunteer organization. Some of the discussions, findings, etc. are set forth on this topic:

TMP link

"Do you have any evidence to the contrary that suggests that this is not a good comparison?"

How can you seriously compare the move from the Penn Harris to Lancaster vs the move from Lancaster to Baltimore?

The Penn Harris is in a small city by comparison, so it was moved to another small city where there would be more space while the hotel and meal costs would be about the same. It is relatively easy to get around both cities.

Are you honestly trying to say the hotel and meal costs in Lancaster will be about the same as Baltimore?

Well I guess they would be if you stayed at one of the flop houses near the airport and ate at the Baltimore McDonalds everyday.

Baltimore is a big city, so the move from a small city to a big city is much different that from one small city to another.

And the move was made from the Penn Harris because they were literally out of room, period, done, end of story.

I've yet to see the evidence that this is the case at the Host; half the gaming tables at night were empty Thursday, Friday and Saturday and every dealer who wanted tables in the tennis barn got them, there were also quite a few new dealers at this years event as well.

Apples to hand grenades; put the glass of koolaid down and step away from the vehicle.

So what will all those who vote NO do next summer?

Probably sit home whining and complaining.

At least in my case, rumor has it that my favorite local sci-fi and fantasy gaming con- Dexcon, normally 1 or 2 weeks before Historicon, is instead the same weekend next year because of the Historicon earlier date shift that came with the venue change. I normally try to do both shows back to back, as I have for a decade now. Since supporting "The Hobby" for me is an organization agnostic activity and I enjoy all kinds of games (Sci-fi and Fantasy as well as Historicals), I'll be choosing the path of most convenience and lower cost. YMMV.

Yes, as best can be afforded and conduced by a volunteer organization. Some of the discussions, findings, etc. are set forth on this topic

Were there studies done to determine how many people and\or dealers you will lose by moving the convention?

What about metrics to determine success or failure of the move?

Look at the numbers given there.

· About 90% of our current attendees live North of Washington DC (inclusive).

· "Center mass" on attendee residence is around Philadelphia , but only 15% live in Philly environs.

· Highest density of attendees 25% live in a combined Baltimore/Washington Metro/Suburb triangle.

This convention is moving as far south as it can be moved and no studies were done to figure out how many people from the north would not attend? Looking at these numbers, moving to Baltimore without getting by in from the membership is sloppy.

Finally, look at what Mattes says:

What does all of this data tell us? Well, first any such data could be erroneous, so we cannot "bet the ranch" on any one fact. We do know our Exhibitors GM's, Tournament gamers are struggling with space issue. But we also know moving a convention is a risk, and takes a lot time and extensive pre-planning, and many man-hours and volunteers dedicated to make it work

The price of the rooms are not set yet, the parking is still up in the air (depending on the baseball schedule) and many of the members are not embracing this move. I don't see allot of pre-planing done before the decision to move was made.

Thank you for providing the link :)

Holly to Hokey???

Suppose a plague strikes everywhere except Baltimore. The move could save everyone's lives!!

I am not against the idea of a move. what has bothered me about this debate from the beginning is that the argument for the move is usually vague and non-specific. It "might" attract people who came once and never came back (why?). It might get some "attention" for the hobby (how?). It is a more "fitting" location for the hobby's "flagship" convention. The Host is a dump so we should move. Never any specific reasons other than a desire for more space…which itself is never justified except by the vague assertion that there are dealers who want more space (how many, how much space, what kind of dealers?).

The argument against moving has offered many specific concerns. How will the logistics of moving stuff in and out work? What are the long term increases in cost (vs. the first year charade of HMGS subsidies). What are the real hotel costs? What are the rules and regs on outside food, alcohol, coolers, etc?

I like decisions made on specifics. "This might happen, and that might happen" is just not the basis for a responsible decision.

And the fact that the Host may not be an ideal location does not by logical extension mean that there is a better one.

OK, I'm outta here. Not worth the effort. I really don't care what others do--this has been a waste of time.

Good luck with your gaming endeavors.

It's still all just for fun and games, wherever we find ourselves.

Did anybody consider they might be moving the convention just to tick off those who are ticked off? Or maybe they were hoping the complainers would stop coming? Or maybe they wanted to see if they could actually do it? Or maybe they have attended conventions in large cities in other places and seen that it can work?

My goodness, what if they actually get the same number of people as before? Gasp. What if people actually like the new venue? Will Historicon be doomed to be stuck in Baltimore forever?

Other options? Three of my friends said they were going to go to Origins instead. I also heard the World Boardgaming Championships mentioned (which, ironically, is at the Lancaster Host). While not at the same exact time, there are other options.

So the Host is good enough for the WBC still?

boardgamers.org

Admittedly, they have 1,300 attendees. But they've filled up the Host. I bet they take showers, too.

Allen

Actually, I think we will get a whole new batch of complainers to replace the ones who don't show. I understand there is a separate yahoo group and website for them to organize. They already have 3 pages of complaints, and have not even been there yet.

I know two people who aren't planning on going – or rather, are planning on not going. (And we spend around $2K between us.)

Wow I would need a least 2 K just to get there…. So till I win the lottery I'm SOL…

Or go to Vegas. BTW arn't they holding a con there;0

After re-reading the moving criteria, I'm still not convinced and in fact Baltimore does not meet the moving criteria in several areas especially the Increased costs to everybody. So someone is being or has been disingenuous. Secondly, Pete's major complaint on that thread is lack of major growth. I thought this was about us playing games, not about growing the hobby. Again I think there are some very wacky agendas here as I have suspected all along and written about over several years since the "to the manor born crowd" has tried to educate us on the finer points of etiquette, fine dining, worthy accommodations and of courese the higher prices that come with all of that. Again, follow the money.

EEEEEEEE-YOWWWWLLLLLL!

I know two people who aren't planning on going – or rather, are planning on not going. (And we spend around $2K between us.)

……….. Most of my friends have around $1K each for Historicon. That includes food, beer and shopping but not the hotel costs … we charge them. :)

If I was a vendor I would be very concerned about attendance in Baltimore.

Mike B