"How Many HMGS Members Want HCON to Move to Baltimore?" Topic

On thing Baltimore should do is draw day trippers from DC, PA, DE, NJ and other bored souls who have nothing to do that weekend. I've driven to Philly for the day at I think Origins 79, Origins 82 in Baltimore, the first move of HCON near Baltimore, the Penn Harris and several Host conventions. Now most of the time I stay one or two nights. We'll see about Baltimore. As I get older, I'm not such a day tripper anymore! In the past I went to Albany/Ticonderoga on a long weekend and drove NoVA to Indiana and back on a long weekend to go to a hobby shop. Well I went to Jenkintown twice for the day also.

Yes.

NO!!!! My last Historicon for a while.

Well, I for one think the move is long overdue. I never cared for the Lancaster location. The first problem is that the location was a hotel. Games and all scattered here & there because of the hotel layout. IMO, simply put, the location sucked.

BCC will be more expensive but IMO, the move constitutes a step up for wargame conventions. FINALLY, a convention will be hosted at a convention center! HMGS has finally hit the big leagues and I wish them all the success.

I sincerely hope that the new location will attract attendees that know what soap and a razor are and that those that don't will stay home. Last Historicon I went to you walked into the registration area and were hit in the face by B.O. that would stop a cavalry charge! Perhaps the newer and more expensive location will attract a better clientele. I hope so.

If the HMGS BOD can get rooms for participants in the $100 USD to $120 USD a night range, they will have done a great job (especially if they can get the rate to include parking, but I feel that's asking too much).

I have heard a lot of complaining, and room cost and parking cost seem to be at the top. Some people tell me they were able to get a room for under $50 USD a night at Lancaster (with a room partner). In my experience, hotels at that price rent by the hour as well.

I will be glad to see the venue change.

All the best to the HMGS BOD, and good luck!

- Greg

In case anybody missed it, we stopped counting a while back, but feel free to jump with your comments.

NO- and I live 15 minutes away

Yes.

NO

And apparently neither did the voters in the recent election. The results are now posted in the yahoo groups message board.

Heather voted no and received the most votes.
Dudley voted yes and he's out.

No…..sadly this will be my last Historicon for a while, at least 2 years that is. I have been attending and GM'ing for the last 22 years.

no

Heather did not vote no- she did not vote at all. She felt with vendor connections that it was not appropiate for her to vote. For the record- she supports the move.

no

fox, thanks for the correction. Guess I misread because of her choice of words in her bio.

looks like I was wrong on both accounts…Dudley is back in!

In all fairness (and as written) it is confussing.

I also do not think she had any ill intent.

No

I'll be there. While the main reason is that Baltimore is actually 1.5 hours closer to me in Central VA, I hope that more space will equal more games and more vendors. Sure I love Lancaster and it was a great place to take the family all of these years, we have done almost/seen almost everything there by now and my girls are pretty much grown so are doing thier own thing.

Bill,

My reservations are in the Hilton attached to the convention center. I have no idea what the rate is supposed to be as my stay will be free because I will utilize my reserve of HiltonHonor points. As will my flight to Baltimore be free when I redeem frequent flier points. But then my last visit to Historicon in Lancaster was also essentially free except for the requirement to rent a car. I stayed at the Hampton Inn down the street. I haven't seen a dump like the Host since I was a very poor college student.

However, as i won't have to rent a car, I thoroughly expect to use that extra $300-400 on miniatures.

How do you have a reservation already?

I thought it was stated in another thread ( I know, hard to believe *another* thread on these board s about HCON move!) that no details of room deals have been released yet because they are still in progress?

no

Chris,
You can get a room

just not

an HMGS rate. I wonder sometimes….
VR
James Mattes

That's what I figured, thanks James. I just wanted to make sue I didn't miss an announcement amongst all the flaming torches and hand wringing ;-)

I am waiting until those details are revealed and ready before I figure out where to make a reservation.

No

I have to admit, even though I will try it out, I have to say No. I wish it would have stayed in Lancaster.

And that is a reasonably informed decision, as I have attended a number of conventions/conferences (both geekdom and professional) in Baltimore. As well as almost every HMGS show ever put on in Lancaster (and those at the old Penn Harris as well). So, good grounds for comparison.

Yes.

You do realize that you have to stop discussing the topic, so that it can "sink" to the bottom of the board and become an actual poll, right?

Question to the Editor; the member Bob and his Dog. Can the dog vote?

"Las Vegas 2011"

Here is an excellent example of someone who does NOT have a dog in the fight so to speak, a Non-HMGS-Member, (a canandian at that!) from Oklahoma!

VR
James Mattes

Nay

Yes!

No. The BoD made a big mistake.

The die is cast, why muddle things unless you have another motive such as to sew discontent to reduce attendence and undermine and harm the Society.

Your proposed vote is an old trick used to manipulate opinion. In politics, none of the above more often than not will out poll an incumbant but when presented with a real live opponent the imcumbant almost always wins.

Given the Host is not going to be a viable candidate, as it is even as we disagree busily working to fill the July dates.

So, given the Host is not available, what is your viable alternative to Baltimore for a venue?

Bob Coggins

Absolutely. Everyone should just shut up and do what they are told without complaint or comment. After all, that's what made America great.

Proles and animals are free!

I would like to see all the three cons moved to a better place. Who wouldn't?! The problem right now is that there is no 'perfect' venue. Either you pay more and are inconvenienced or stick with the Host. That's the bottom line. With the economy very bad, jobs either lost or the potenial to be lost (which is rumored ALL the time now where I work) who wants to spend MORE money? Not me. I'll stay home and shop online. I can spend the money I would have spent with hotel, travel and food on MORE miniatures. The money I would normally drop at the show I'll just hold on to so I just saved a bundle of cash… and I kept the family happy by not going. win-win situation for me.

I will miss the comradeship of friends but I can rent a hall nearby for a day and game here. We can all chip in and have fun. Everyone saves money and no travel time lost.

I will miss the comradeship of friends but I can rent a hall nearby for a day and game here. We can all chip in and have fun. Everyone saves money and no travel time lost.

Not a bad idea at all. If you schedule it, let us know and we'll be there. If you really want to get ambitious, we could try and invite Old Glory :)

So, given the Host is not available, what is your viable alternative to Baltimore for a venue

I think the proper question to ask is when is the Host available?

d effinger is 100% correct; I am already seeing newer, smaller cons popping up and also, a spike in attendence in the smaller ones already in the loop.

Guaranteed more folks will come to The Williamsburg con, the NJ con at Ft Dix, Havoc, the new con in Maine scheduled for 2010, etc, etc.

I can't speak for cons anywhere else and they shouldn't matter as I am speaking about cons in the EAST since this is an HMGSEAST convention, not a national convention for the 500th time.

Also, with Fall In moving to the Host and Cold Wars staying there; you know, the dump that isnt' good enough for Historigins (love that name by the way whoever came up with that one), but works for the other two cons, you'll see attendence go up at those as well.

And this has nothing to do with "muddling things in order to reduce attendence and undermine and harm the society" or any other sort of nonsense.

But hey, never let the facts get in the way of your arguement, especially if the facts go against your arguement.

I have to admit, even though I will try it out, I have to say No. I wish it would have stayed in Lancaster.

There's a rail sitter if I ever saw one.

I think it is great that there is an up tick in local cons, as that is good for the hobby and everyone. But, such a thing does not necessarily translate to a downturn in attendance at any of the HMGSE conventions. There is a large swing number of several hundred at each one, IIRC, so any number of people not coming may be replaced by others that do at any given con. Also, it is ridiculous to compare a local con to any of the HMGSE conventions. They are on a different planet than local cons in every way concievable.

I don't think any of the powers that be now are calling the Host a dump. It was pretty iffy some years ago but new owners have put a good bit of money into upgrading the place. The meeting rooms could use some upgrading too, but that is hardly a big issue for HMGSE.

The issue driving this is the lack of space to accomodate all that wish to be accomodated. What should and should be there, who does and does not use space judiciously are good questions, but political ones no one wants to take on. Theynever really did either. I suspect any board would feel that they are just not worth the political fallout they would generate.

I am not saying the BCC is the answer, but for now it looks like one the BoD has come up with. I hope it works out for all. If not, I guess we'll see what the next place will be.

Uh, Bob with all due respect for your contributions to the hobby and they are many; in fact you and Pat Condray are two of my favorite people, but I'm not trying to manipulate anything. I'm looking for information and if I want to take a sample of opinion, meaningless though it may be, I have every right to do so. I also have the right of free speech in these forums until stopped by the moderator as do you, so let's get that straight. IMHO the board pulled the trigger on moving to Baltimore too soon and I think it's been clearly demonstrated that we have not yet outgrown the Host. They really have not as a body to my knowledge given a clear reason for the move and it is a done deal and I'm already on the net looking for a good deal in a hotel. So I'm going but I and other dues paying members have some right to an explanation of the board's motives. Maybe they'll explain it at Historicon, I don't know. Maybe you could ask them in our behalf and I will certainly bend Pete's ear again for more information. I don't intend to trash the board, they are obviously doing their job as far as the relocation committee is concerned. My beef is the process. It will be nice when all these threads on moving Historicon are over and we can go back to wargaming. See you at Historicon.

I think it's been clearly demonstrated that we have not yet outgrown the Host.

Just because you can squeeze into some old trousers doesn't mean you haven't out grown them.

IMHO, as soon as they added the dealers annex to the golf shop basement (AKA "club room") at Historicon 2006, we out grew the Host.

Since then the painting events were moved outside to a tent by the pool at Historicon 2008.

And this year, Historicon 2009 lost the Nation FoW tournament because there wasn't enough space. It will be back next year because of the move to the BCC.

Recently on TMP someone complained about the flea market
being full and naively wondered why they didn't just add more tables.This of course would be possible at the BCC, but is impossible at the Host because there isn't enough space.

vonLoudon,

I appreciate your kind words. I thought the board explained it quite well, Historicon outgrew the hotel. I recently had the opportunity to speak with a manager who has been with the hotel since Dick and I moved Historicon there about another subject. She said while they appreciate the business they were growing uncomfortable with the size of the convention because it placed a strain on their ability to provide good service and they were relieved that the move was being made and they are confident they can replace us with events that are a more comfortable fit.

I would never say you don't have a right to conduct a poll. I was just pointing out that to be more accurate you should provide one or more alternatives. I know an excellent alternative which has only one drawback, it is rather off geographical center, though despite this is almost just as accessable as Baltimore or Lancaster. Now lets see if someone can find it. Hint: Its located in either PA,MD or VA.

The bottom line is, if you don't like what the board is doing, run for the board.

Good Gaming

Bob Coggins

No prob, Bob. Most of this is not worth getting upset about.
Sorry for my tone. Just a little frustrated. Which will wear off in time by say July 2010. Hopefully much sooner!

We haven't out grown the Host just our purpose and priorities.

I recently had the opportunity to speak with a manager who has been with the hotel since Dick and I moved Historicon there about another subject. She said while they appreciate the business they were growing uncomfortable with the size of the convention because it placed a strain on their ability to provide good service and they were relieved that the move was being made and they are confident they can replace us with events that are a more comfortable fit.

Here-say does not stand up in court.

And not only that, a guy who works with my best friends uncle knows a girl who's father knows a guy who's son works at the Chinese Buffet restaurant down the street from the Host and he said at the rate of growth they're seeing with Historicon, unless more cats start hanging in that area, they're going to have to start importing them from the surrounding area to keep up with the demand.

If there's one thing we all know, it's wargamers + an all you can eat Chinese Buffet= a disaster of epic proportions for both the cat population and the local sewage treatment plant.

Yeah, I can just see the hotel manager saying that about the convention. Is she saying that about Cold Wars and Fall In 2010 as well?

Priceless.

Hey, when all else fails, make stuff up and fling it against the wall to see if it will stick………..

George,

The management at the Host told us several years ago if they had a choice they would prefer to lose Historicon as the summer they have other who will fill the place. They like Cold Wars, and loved when Fall In! were there due to the fact it is off season for them. This was said to several of us on the board at the time. I do not have my notes or I could tell you what year it was. I do think it was at Cold Wars three or four years ago.
VR
James Mattes

James,
Understood, but I just find it tough to follow how a hotel/resort/convention center would want to give up business as Historicon is a sure thing while potentially others who would book there is no guarantee.

Not saying it was not presented to you, just saying it's an odd way to run a railroad; they know what they are getting from us while anything else could go either way………

I love the argument that the Host is too much of a pit stain for Hcon but they have other bidders lining up for our time slot. I've heard this for years. No doubt they can more easily fill the hotel in summer but if they had so many more lucrative options they would have stopped renewing the contract years ago.

Also, this whole "outgrew the Host" argument is based on the notion that it is worth getting any additional events, dealers, and attendance at all costs. Admittedly it is admirable to want to have all of this in the tent, so to speak, but is it really worth it to shake up the entire thing, create a rift in the orgnanization, incur sharply higher costs, and risk major disruption to get a FOW tournament and make room for half a dozen more dealers?

Of course the argument for moving suggested far greater growth than that ("take it to the next level!"). Slogans like that are great, requiring as they do no facts whatsoever to back them up. I still question where the growth will come from other than the relatively small overage of desired slots at Hcon now. This is a small hobby and the growth of the con to where it is now has taken a quarter century. The thing that scares me is that there are people who think moving to BCC is going to make the con grow like magic.

Surprise I agree with you when you said:

"The thing that scares me is that there are people who think moving to BCC is going to make the con grow like magic.

It will take work from the organization (Members, Staff, Vendors, GMs) to make the move work.

VR
James Mattes

It will take work from the organization (Members, Staff, Vendors, GMs) to make the move work.

I think it may be a misconception to think the wargaming community can be *led* to greener pastures. Good stuff (synergy) only happens when people's common interests come together.

It's all too late now as the die has been cast, but perhaps a membership wide up/down referendum on a move to a specific location, stating the pro and con issues upfront, would have created a better environment for "group" buy in? or not depending… as they say in Vegas.

2010 will certainly be an interesting year.