"Did Reaper do something illegal?" Topic

Last week, Reaper Miniatures re-issued 5 Limited edition reapercon sophies as a set for $100. USD I understood limited edition to mean just that, I spent several hundred dollars aquiring thes minis through b-town and e-bay. I think this shows very poor judgement on their part. I have several hundred reaper minis in my collection, but am debating whether or not to ever purchase another. Just curious as to what others think. Should ltd ed be ltd ed?

They set the limits on "Limited Edition". Legality has *nothing* to do with it.

I disapprove of the whole concept of "limited edition" as a matter of principle. So, I have little sympathy for any who fall for that scam.

I understood limited edition to mean just that, I spent several hundred dollars aquiring thes minis through b-town and e-bay

They got you.

Unless they say that they will destroy the molds and masters, and can prove that they actually did it, "Limited edition" means nothing.

I can name a major historical manufacturer who claimed that a certain Pirate range was limited to 500 or 1000 bags, and in PEWTER! That was several years ago, and all bags are up on the page, with no deletions.
I am glad that they have swept that particular proviso under the rug, and have forgotten about it. The more who have access to these minis, the better.

I think "limited" has reached a new definition among many. Some think this means "rare" or "valuable". Limited could mean several things. A range might be limited by date, number or quantity. The range might also be as limited as the caster has time to produce. In any event, I can understand your frustration, but also know that you need to take this with a certain grain of salt.

I recently posed whether "collecting" an army had a negative connotation. The overwhelming response was yes, it has a negative connotation and people think the term connotes limited availability and that you need to collect all of something. In my view, and the dictionary's, collecting means to accumulate and has nothing to do with rarity or value. I think anyone who decides to create an army is indeed a collector as the only way to accumulate enough miniatures is to collect them.

Darn it. Now what am I going to do with these Limited Edition John the OFM Actually Issued in Bongolesia Half Crown Pieces in 24 Carat Gold Microfinish with actual working head lights? My target audience obviously isn't receptive . . .

I've been looking for a Freebooter Pirat's Daughter ltd ed for a year now, maybe I should just wait for a re-issue. But, seriously, this damages their credibility, while I don't believe it will damage their sales. I like Assassin miniatures approach where each mini is numbered and the total castings are given

The limited scam has been going a long time, in the 1980s a 90mm collectors figure was issued as a limited edition of 250.

However this was just the UK edition, there was a US and world wide edition.

When the company was sold they were re-issued but the new company!

Some companies will list the number of castings to be produced in a limited run series. Otherwise it is up to the company whether what numbers are used for the limited run.

Techinaclly all products of companies like Demonworld or TSR Battlesystems can be considered limited run products. They are not made any more.

limited edition = pro painted, IMO

I thought of you (Satanslandlady?) the other day when I saw that advert. Sorry.

I disagree, it does not damages their credibility, They were originally issued at $20each and they are still charging that. If you fell taken because you spent more then that on them then that's an issue on your part. I don't mean to sound mean/rude but if you paid substantially more then that for the lot of them or each then really you have no one to be mad at but yourself. Reaper didn't charge you more then retail the sellers did. I see nothing wrong with reissuing them. They are far from the first company to do so and I highly doubt they will be the last.

I feel your pain, and I too dislike the limited edition thing, but did Reaper actually come out and say "we'll never distribute these again" when they offered them the first time? The figures are theirs to do whatever they want, including re-offering limited runs whenever they feel like it.

Well, they probably will, since there is no clear objections from anyone (except me) If you don't hold a person or company to a standard, then what's to keep them from doing what they want. and Zerozero, your comment makes absolutely no sense

Heck, you should buy all of my Forge of Ice stuff! So far, it's all limited to 50 castings of each item.

I can have more cast up anytime I want, but for now there's only 50 of each item in the whole wide world…

Actually, I believe John the OFM states what a lot of gamers think about limited edition miniatures. Personally, after buying into one limited edition game with miniatures, I have chosen in the future not to buy into any more limited edition games.

The term "limited" is used to indicate exclusivity.

That is the reason people pay a higher than normal price for them

It also indicates a certain amount of buyers will hope the figure will become collectable.

For a company to have the attitude that "limited" means limited to how many we can sell reminds me of a snake oil salesman!

The term "limited" is used to indicate exclusivity.

Says who? I think the problem is a lot of folks THINK that's what it means. When Arby's says "limited offer", does that mean they will never make the same offer again? When Ford produces a Fusion LE, are they prevented from making a second run of them later in the year? When the Yankees offer a "limited" supply of ball caps to the first 1000 people in the gate, does that prevent them from doing it again later in the season?

"Limited Edition" is right up there with "Farewell Tour".

And "Retiring after this season"

Well here is the dictionary definition

# Confined or restricted within certain limits: has only limited experience.
#

1. Not attaining the highest goals or achievement: a limited success.

Perhaps bushiness has devalued the word, just like all used car sales men seem to have Honest as a first name!

Or do the think if they have limited success they can re-issue…..

Just because they are limited does not mean that Reaper held back several hundred to sell at a later date.

Unless it is a numbered limited edition (i.e. Tanath from Confrontation of which each is tagged with its individual number) then there is no problem. Even if so, you would have a private cause of action ONLY and any gain would be far exceeded by fees.

I'd rather have Reaper around than not. So, if they need to do this to survive, so be it.

They certainly haven't done anything either illegal or unethical.

They only made a few each year. Compared to the hundreds of other models of which they made hundreds of castings, that's pretty limited. Even now, I don't think they are planning on making more than a couple of hundred this time around.

As others pointed out, if *you* paid more for them, then you apparently thought they were worth it. Now that someone else can get the same (still over-priced, IMHO) minis, you don't think you're as special. Tough luck. People pay too much for crap on eBay all the time, hoping it will be 'collectable.' You're just one more in a long list of people to make that mistake.

I wish all figures would always be available, forever. I don't care for limited editions, but if a company wants to put out figures that way, that's their business. What I can't stand is "destroying the molds" so there will be no more, ever. I think this is a shameful waste. I don't like the exclusivity connotation carried by that type of limited figure.

Its not as if Reaper took money out of your pocket, or took your miniatures away from you. At most, they have reduced your potential resale value should you decide to liquidate your collection. If you paid hundreds for these, then you probably weren't ever going to profit from them.

Well I don't think Sororitas thought the figures were crap!

So the verdict of our celebrity panel is …..

You were taken in by weasel words. And its all your fault!

We're going to have a limited edition ReaperCon Sophie available for sale during the run of the Con (May 14-17). You all know this. We do it every year.

And every year we have someone saying, "Hey, I want one from last year!" or years past, but that's never been an option. Until now.

My sympathies, in times like these one would hope that firms had a clearer definition of limited – like the resin Sophie…….

I'll have six of these for sale online starting midnight CST.

Or maybe not….

They're also available if you show up at Reapercon. I have about a dozen total.

Got any photos of your Sophies? Everyone loves Sophies.

"Everyone loves Sophies."

I've managed to survive all this time without a single one.

Illegal??????? You have to be kidding me. No matter what happens you still have the original version of the limited edition models. No lies or anything like that here. Now of course you really won't be able to prove that but that is what it is.

So no Reaper has done nothing illegal or unethical. You still have a limited edition miniature and anyone who buys one of the new versions has a different run miniature.

I would suggest not paying top dollar for limited edition miniatures next time unless the item is actually numbered or comes with some kind of certificate chances are it will be rereleased as some later date.

Sororitas,

Remember all the thrills of searching for and attaining these figures at the time. You made sure they became a part of your collection. I've purchased out-of-print books I really wanted for my collection only to find it reprinted many years later at a lower price. The point is, I didn't want to take a chance on missing out on adding that title to my collection so I paid the higher price. I take great pride in my research library.

When you bought the figures the seller had no idea they would be reissued by Reaper as a set later. Reaper is under no obligation to never reissue a figure it releases as a Reaper Con limited edition. Enjoy your collection and the fun you had amassing it!

Illegal, kind of an ignorant term to use would you not agree? Reaper never claimed they where making a limited amount. Nor did they ever state they where breaking the molds once the run was complete. If you are madd because you spent an arm and a leg on one then that is you. What was it exactly PT Barnum said about someone being born every minute. The terms LE, SE, and all others are simply fluffing, terms used to make a product sound better.

Considering all that Reaper has done for the hobby, I feel you are out of line.

First of all, limited does NOT have to refer to a limited number – it can refer to any kind of limit. In the case of ReaperCon Sophies, the "limit" is where and when you could get them – IE, ReaperCon and only while ReaperCon is actually in progress.

As far as I know, there is no limit to how many they'll produce, it's just that you have to buy them during that four day period. I imagine that if someone wanted to order 1000 of them, they'd produce them.

Secondly, they didn't just issue these with little regard to the previous releases – as said below by one of their reps on their forums:

we will not be selling them individually. We felt that this limited edition set, at a high but reasonable price, would preserve the collectibility of the previous Sophies, while giving our newer fans a shot at owning them.

The Sophies are each in a blister marked as 5th anniversary, and all 5 blisters are packaged in a boxed set with the attractive cover you see on the front page.

Note that it's a set and that the blisters are all marked differently than the original.

I'm pretty sure they aren't infinite, so barring that…

As far as never buying Reaper again, that's your choice, just like it was when you paid for the other minis. I don't see the sense in never buying Reaper, though. You have your minis and you paid exactly what you thought they were worth. Nothing has changed that.

I think of it in the same way as 1st Edition/2nd Edition of a book. A limited edition means that this run is limited in some way. However, there is nothing to prevent future editions under that heading.

Isn't it a shame we are all so cynical

We cannot trust banks
We cannot trust politicians

It seems that few even trust hobby adverts!

It has nothing to do with being cynical. It has to do with the fact that the miniatures are actually limited edition. They were when he bought them and they still are now.

That has nothing to do with being cynical. It does however have everything to do with someone getting all bent out of shape and overreacting to a situation.

"Isn't it a shame we are all so cynical"

Not really, you can buy all sorts of collectible 'limited edition' stuff like china dogs, hand carved chess sets etc. as well as wargames stuff.

It is just a meaningless marketing term.

At least I know my numbered, signed, boxed, hardback copy of "Flashman on the March" is definitely a Limited Edition.

He sure ain't gonna be signing any more now, is he?

It has to do with the fact that the miniatures are actually limited edition. They were when he bought them and they still are now.

But he does have a point.

The buyer and seller agreed a price based on the fact that these were issued only at a convention.

That there was a "limited" amount available from those sold over that period that would come up for re-sale

I quote Reaper:

And every year we have someone saying, "Hey, I want one from last year!" or years past, but that's never been an option.

But now they re-issued they are not as limited

As for the "limited" resin Sophie

They're also available if you show up at Reapercon. I have about a dozen total.

Erm. ABOUT a dozen? Is it that hard to count up to 12!

@The Black Tower

Yes the ones he bought online are the ones that were only issued at the convention. So he has the ones that were only issued for this event. The ones that reaper has rereleased are a new run and therefore different.

Not only that but Reaper never agreed with anyone that they would not rerelease a new edition of the minature at a later date. So what is your point???????

And frankly this person did not enter into any agreement with Reaper anyway having bought the miniature on the second hand market. So again I would like to know what your actual point is?

My point is the same as many others that have posted here.

The term Limited has become debased

I cannot put it better than Beowulfdahunter

What was it exactly PT Barnum said about someone being born every minute. The terms LE, SE, and all others are simply fluffing, terms used to make a product sound better.

Or John the OFM

They got you.

Unless they say that they will destroy the molds and masters, and can prove that they actually did it, "Limited edition" means nothing.

Ok I understand that but it isn't exactly "illegal" or unethical :)

Did Reaper do something illegal?

No.

Last week, Reaper Miniatures re-issued 5 Limited edition reapercon sophies as a set for $100. USD USD I understood limited edition to mean just that, I spent several hundred dollars aquiring thes minis through b-town and e-bay.

If you thought they have significant value, or are likely to be a good investment property, you're a very silly person. "Collectibles" generally speaking, have little to no investment value.

I really can't imagine why anyone has ever bought a "Sophie".
-Kle.

Did Reaper do something illegal?

No. They entered into no contract with you to make the figures you own more valuable. That you and the people from whom you bought them made deals for more than the Sophies were worth originally is between you and they. Reaper doesn't enter into that equation, sorry.

It's annoying, but the figures are still limited. You could only get them direct from Reaper on the day. The blisters are clearly marked with "for 2009 special boxed set relase" on them. If you bought your Sophies as collector's pieces, they still are. After all, didn't you leave them in the blisters? Aren't those blisters clearly labeled with the year?

No, Reaper did nothing illegal, and it's bad form to suggest that they did. That's just trying to hurt their business because your feelings and pride are a little bruised.

I really can't imagine why anyone has ever bought a "Sophie".

Easy enough. The same reason I buy any figure; it is something I like and want to paint. I can't imagine why I'd buy Napoleonic figures, but I don't simply dismiss the interests of those who do.

If it is any consolation, I have removed all my "limited edition" miniatures from the packaging making them worthless and uncollectable. I have even slapped paint at some of them.

I do this only to help others maintain value in their collections. I am selfless like that (and should be rewarded for it).

I still think it shows poor judgement on their part, and if I were you I would send them a strongly worded letter about how disapointed you are in them.

The new Sophies are a new Edition. They can re-release them every year for the next century and call every release a Limited Edition if they so choose. You can see many examples of this in the Publishing Industry. The difference is Book Collectors actually care and value first editions, Limited Editions and Special Editions…while we just want the damn figure (for the most part anyway).

Personally, I feel it would be good for the miniature collecting hobby as a whole if companies were to re-released Limited Edition figures with some small modification to differentiate between casting runs. I have seen this done occasionally and its a nice touch…The people get the figure they might have missed, while still offering a tip of the hat to the collectors.

Reaper is a great company, I like their attitude and the minis they make.
'Limited' should always be taken with a grain of salt and if you decided to go pay the Ebay 'entrepreneurs' their exorbitant scalping fee then too bad. The bad judgment was yours and yours alone.

Reaper owns the rights, and the molds. Their production manager told me personally, this past weekend at Reapercon, "We hang onto all the molds. We don't throw them away unless they are damaged beyond use."

In short, they might lose their minds sometime this afternoon and start selling Sophies to the outfits that put little gimcracks in plastic bubbles in the machines outside supermarkets for a quarter.

"Limited Edition" is a pretty flexible term. Far as I can tell, Reaper hasn't broken any laws; all they've done is irritate you by reissuing some hard-to-find commodities.

If it bugs you that much, go to the next ReaperCon. They gave me a 2009 Sophie free with my admission.

At least I know my numbered, signed, boxed, hardback copy of "Flashman on the March" is definitely a Limited Edition.

He sure ain't gonna be signing any more now, is he?

Well, if there were suddenly to be a new run, I'd get fairly suspicious….

sounds like false advertising to me, which would be illegal in the UK.

same thing as "50% off" sales, when the full price is just a made up amount…it's all false advertising.

I dont know if you have similar laws in your part of the world but if they had done that in the UK then, yes, they would have done something illegal.

Hmm, didn't realize so many lawyers were on board here, or reaper employees. Hard to tell. Anyway to all the Reaper defenders, I would wonder if any of you have as many as I have, that's not the point. The ones I bought in the store were standard editions and issues, and I understood that when I bought them. The Sophies, however were indeed advertised as limited edition, how you choose to interpret that is up to you. Reaper still shows poor judgement in this. Those of you, who chose to insult me or my judgement can also choose to do so. I still think Reaper did something illegal here.

If you really think Reaper did something illegal, hire a lawyer, don't ask a bunch of hobbyists.