"Pikemen in siege warfare" Topic

Descriptions of Vauban-style sieges repeatedly mention grenadioers, or forlorn hopes of musketeers. However I can't seem to figure out how the pikemen still present in armies until the end of the 17th century would be employed in these situations (although I may just have overlooked something) Obviously they might take their turn at digging and sentry duties, but what about the actual fighting? Would they be held in reserve, perhaps given shorter pikes, or even issued spare muskets? Hopefully the experts on this board can shed some light on this.

In all probability they were armed with more suitable weaponry. The pike is an open battlefield weapon designed to be used in a formation, outwith this its an unwieldy liability.
This was true in ancient times also, Alexanders phalangites were armed with shorter weapons when assaulting cities or in some of the fast actions through mountain passes or other rough terrain, I think these events are also responsible for the confusion over the armament of the Hypaspists, the answer being- it varied to whatever was appropriate for the circumstance..

I too have pondered this question to little avail. I wargame the early 16c period and ECW.

The long 16 C pike, and pike formations, seem a little unwieldy for street fighting. The Swiss (massed pikemen in units typically of 3000 – 6000 strong 10:1 pike to shot; and using shorter pikes than was fashionable elsewhere) generally refused to take part in assaults into breaches (presumably they saw the job as unsuitable for their tactics). Therefore I assume that other pikemen, if used, probably left their pike in camp and relied on secondary and improvised weapons.

By the 17C pikes were getting shorter (12 – 14 footish) and less numerous ([sub] units of 200 – 300) and I can see no reason why these could not operate normally in streets, perhaps in smaller groups, with the shot in support clearing houses and the like where the pike would not be useful; but there would be nothing to stop a pikeman standing his pike by the door and drawing his sword for this kind of job I suppose. This last point is something to bear in mind – unlike a miniature figurine, a real soldier is not super glued to his weapon, or his 'base size' all of the time.

These are just my thoughts. I can't remember specific details of anything I've read to the contrary.

James

Saruman didn't seem to be able to get his head around this problem either.

The Scottish assault on the Royalist fort at South Shields (1644) is described as going in in three 'waves': the first with swords, faggots, and ladders were 'volunteers'; these were supported by musketeers (covering fire?); and the third wave was made up of pikemen. The fort was an earthwork of the sconce-type three metres high, and I've wondered whether the pikemen poked at the parapet with their pike-heads while the swordsmen scrambled through the gun-ports.

Many thanks for the thoughts and anecdotes chaps – this is just the kind of thing I'm after.
The Swiss refusing breach assult assignments was news to me, but then they were in the enviable position to negotiate all sorts of perks for their contract… As close-combat specialists, and usually better armoured as well, I suppose pikemen would have been an asset in assaults and streetfighting, even without their long poles.
Still, one wonders whether this was just left to improvisation, or governed by some standing orders, so – Keep 'em coming!

In large fortifications there were still large amounts of open space between outer walls and the city streets. If a sizable breech was made, and not too difficult to pass through, pikes in column could be used to storm it. Even without the pikes, using their swords, their armor (more likely during the earlier part of the century) would be useful during the attack.

I've seen a copy of a period woodcut from about the time of the TYW, showing Swede's storming a fortress made with earthen ramparts, and they were using pikes. Once into the town proper, they could keep their pikes while in the larger streets to repel counter attacks from any cavalry left in the town, and to assault any barricades thrown up by the defenders. The trick I guess would be to know when the pikes could be discarded.

They would also be kept around before the assault to repel sorties, cavalry or infantry, or any relieving force.

The Swiss really weren't suited for sieges, and they knew it. There was one case where they were on the inside of the city, the French on the outside, and the Swiss opened the city gates, inviting the French to come in to "play". The French declined and settled in for a siege.

You had a lot of pikes and they could still use the swords in an assault if needed, but wouldn't the doublepay men be employed first? You'd also still need pikemen to defend against a sally from the fort/city and to protect against any relief force as well. I would imagine that seige lines and camps are very vulnerable to swift and desparate cavalry actions.

Some later 16th C woodcuts show small units of pike standing next to besieging artillery positions, especially any guns that appear to be in vulnerable forward locations. I've always assumed they were there to deter cavalry raids, as the two previous posters also surmise.

Christopher Duffys book on Seige Warfare in the Renaissance period includes several wook cuts of assaults on breeches by pikemen.
They were probably not the first to go in, but there would certainly have been a place for them.

Not quite a seige and certainly earlier but at Bicocca in 1522 the Swiss repeatedly attempted to climb the Imperialist earthworks using improvised pike 'ladders' (as well as the bodies of fallen comrades). Now that would be a sight to see…………..

charla:

The Scottish assault on the Royalist fort at South Shields (1644) is described as going in in three 'waves': the first with swords, faggots, and ladders were 'volunteers';

I never understood this. Was the idea that after setting up the ladder one would take a break and light up a cigaret? Seems an odd time to have a smoke. Now if it they were assaulting a city I could understand. After a bit of pillage and rape one might want to have a smoke afterwards.

On another note, Vauban prohibited pikes for siege work. This probably spurred attempts to find functional bayonets. Prior to his time, pikes were an integral part of assaults. Once a large breach had been made shield bearers would precede muskets. The muskets were to try to protect the shot while the shot themselves tried to eliminate opposing shot. After this was accomplished, the pikes were sent in to storm the breech. Often they were met by opposing pikes and they would have to fight it out at the breech.

The problem is many simply do not see the pike as a weapon that could be wielded by an individual alone. It could be. And, was even used in duels. For actual accounts of pikes being used in assaults, get ahold of Monroe's book which describes his and others experiences during the TYW. However, he never describes any of them stopping to have a smoke. Strange.

Rich

pike wall/block moving done a street.
pike wall/block behind and blocking a breach in a wall.
being used from a low wall or blockade.

a 20ft pike can kill a man defending a 20ft wall.

However, he never describes any of them stopping to have a smoke. Strange.

Critterette… Get the Thorazine!

Often they were met by opposing pikes and they would have to fight it out at the breech.

However, some authors have pointed out that they were pretty pants in fighting in such conditions…

Griefbringer

"Vauban prohibited pikes for siege work"
- that's most interesting, will have to look that up. Rich, would you happen to have a reference?

Once again, many thanks to all who responded!

The book to read on this is the excellent "The King's Army." A great book to understand late 16th century warfare!

atb
khurasanminiatures.tripod.com

In his "Expedition to Holland" (1572), Captain Walter Morgan's eyewitness engravings seem to show the "heavy armed men" (pikemen) standing outside of the walls in formation while the shot armed men and some holding pole weapons (halberds and such) heading for the breaches.

Engravings showing troops that have gone through the walls and into the town similarly armed- shot and soldiers in armour carrying pole weapons, but no pikemen. Perhaps the armoured men are officers, but there seem to be a large number of them. Roger Williams also calls pikemen "heavy armed men", and writes of them in ambushes in some close terrain (even woods), so I think they might have cut-down their pikes or picked up other weapons on occasion.

TPC

The Basing House siege diaries – June4th 1644 to Nov 14th 1644 mention the use of brown bills..

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