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"HaT 28mm plastic French Light Infantry Masters" Topic


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malcolmmccallum06 May 2009 10:45 p.m. PST

I was expecting them to just be blown up 1/72 but these are looking pretty good and lively.

link

link

Personal logo Midpoint Supporting Member of TMP06 May 2009 11:17 p.m. PST

Well I must admit that was something I didn't expect but that makes sense in hindsight.

Bare figures look a lot better than the painted ones mind – the detailing seems to have been much reduced.

Lonkka1Actual07 May 2009 12:07 a.m. PST

Unfortunately it seems that in most instances the people who have painted the HAT pre-production figures, they really don't have the top of the notch painting skills and just do a sloppy job :(

Connard Sage Inactive Member07 May 2009 1:19 a.m. PST

So many negative waves, Moriarty

Unfortunately it seems that in most instances the people who have painted the HAT pre-production figures, they really don't have the top of the notch painting skills and just do a sloppy job :(

Like about 90% of the wargaming population then? Sorry we aren't all in your league.

They look OK to me. The 'loss of detail' is only apparent close up. I don't make a habit of examining my figures from 12 inches away when they're on the table.

At least they have a nod towards 'anatomically correct', unlike many metal grotesques.

Gwartizan Inactive Member07 May 2009 1:41 a.m. PST

Same level of detail as Wargames Factory, but better proportioned and probably cheaper. Should be popular.

The Jim Jones Cocktail Hour Inactive Member07 May 2009 1:48 a.m. PST

Actually I think they look pretty good and not as much fiddling about glueing arms and egs etc. If the production figures look as good as the test sprues, I'll no doubt pick some up when they get around to the SYW Prussians.

BravoX Inactive Member07 May 2009 2:03 a.m. PST

So many negative waves, Moriarty
Like about 90% of the plastic fanboy population I like to make snarky comments about anyone who doesn't admit to having creamed their pants at the site of more plastic knobrot.

"Same level of detail as Wargames Factory"
Really? To be honest I didn't think these HaT figures were all that bad.

tomrommel107 May 2009 2:13 a.m. PST

Will they be soft plastic or hard like Perry or Victrix?

Marc the plastics fan07 May 2009 2:30 a.m. PST

These are hard plastic.

Can I also remind people that the painted samples are shown huge on your PC. In the "flesh", these are really quite fine figures. They do not, I must admit, have exagerated detail, so they are different to most metal ranges that people know and love. But their poses are very natural, and the detail included is to "scale", and so they look really good to me. And that is from someone who does have Victrix and Perry Naps. I will use all three types on my wargames table.

I have a set kindly provided by HaT as a test sprue which I am cleaning up at present, and can confirm that this is only involving scraping the seam with a knife. There are some "lost" areas which are the result of the two part steel mould, but nothing too scary.

A small detail – the backpacks are the only assembly – and this means that the blanket roll does not get "blobbed" into the shoulders/head, but is actually fully cylindrical – a first for HaT and a welcome move. This has been seen in 1/72 by Zvezda so ggod to see becoming more widespread. They glue on a shaped peg, so easy to fit, and well engineered.

Final point, from a confirmed soft 1/72 plastic fan. I have had to repair a sword scabbard and sword hilt that broke off two figures. Hard plastic is fragile on the delicate parts. Of course, it also glues easily, so not a major issue. But I will want these based on multi-bases to protect the more delicate parts. Individually based skirmish style in hard plastic may result is some broken muskets/bayonets etc. I never see this commented on by the current wave of hard plastic fans, but any of us who have had to repair Uruk Hai pikes know this will always be a problem.

Gwartizan Inactive Member07 May 2009 2:39 a.m. PST

Any idea as to how much these will cost and the number in a box?

Personal logo Chortle Sponsoring Member of TMP Fezian07 May 2009 4:11 a.m. PST

I have mixed feelings about Hat jumping into the 28mm hard plastics market. On the one hand it is good to have new participants but, on the other hand, the existing companies are more focused on the wargames market. So I hope we don't end up with Hat sets with "useless" (for me) poses.

I also don't want to see the existing companies go out of business because they end up with a market too small to repay their investment.

blucher Inactive Member07 May 2009 4:30 a.m. PST

they look ok to me but why do we need MORE french argh!

A Near Thing07 May 2009 4:46 a.m. PST

Well colour me impressed! If the price is right these will be instant purchases I think.

As for the painting I think that is about my level (and style) and I think they look dandy! : )

Marc the plastics fan07 May 2009 5:02 a.m. PST

Sorry Ch – don't really see your point.

"Useless poses" – take a look at the test figures and remind me which ones are those.

And making other companies go out of business. Uh? What about all the 28mm manufacturers competing already? And why do they count more than HaT. Bearing in mind that, to me and a lot of others, HaT is a wargaming company. It is not tamiya or Italeri, but a small scale designer of plastic toy soldiers. That I wargame with. So are you suggesting that we should only support "The Perries" maybe?

Hmmmm.

skinkmasterreturns07 May 2009 5:06 a.m. PST

I'm not that keen on 28's anymore,but I would love to know what they are doing for their 15mm series. Why are they so secretive about what they're even working on?

Patrick R07 May 2009 5:42 a.m. PST

Still waiting for Zvezda to jump onto the historical bandwagon.

Darmok Inactive Member07 May 2009 5:48 a.m. PST

I don't collect Napoleonics, but I am all for HaT's move to 28s. Once they start cranking out medievals/dark ages sets, I am prepared to fork over copious amounts of cash to them!

Who knows what the finished product will be like, but I don't expect them to be on par with the Perry's work, and that is okay with me. Given that these figures will likely cost only about $0.50 USD a piece, I don't expect them to be packed with detail-which isn't to say they won't be. wink

Musketier Supporting Member of TMP07 May 2009 6:14 a.m. PST

Patrick do you mean the 28mm bandwagon?
For their 1/72 not-so-soft plastic historicals are superb!

Gwartizan Inactive Member07 May 2009 6:19 a.m. PST

More cheap figures to lure people into Napoleonics.
Hopefully many other periods will be covered too.
How can that be bad?

Griefbringer07 May 2009 6:23 a.m. PST

Any idea as to how much these will cost and the number in a box?

Based on their El Cid 28mm plastics, I would guess the price to be around 15 USD for a box of around 30 models.

Griefbringer

Musketier Supporting Member of TMP07 May 2009 6:38 a.m. PST

- An NCO properly carrying his weapon on the right, too! For that alone they deserve ample praise and purchase…

scomac07 May 2009 6:56 a.m. PST

Lonkka1Actual, let's see some of your painted figures, please.

From this shot link I gather there will be 48 figures in a box.

Connard Sage Inactive Member07 May 2009 8:25 a.m. PST

So many negative waves, Moriarty
Like about 90% of the plastic fanboy population I like to make snarky comments about anyone who doesn't admit to having creamed their pants at the site of more plastic knobrot.

Was that to me? Try again.

I don't have any plastic figures, and I don't game with 25/28s. So I won't be buying any, be they good, bad or indifferent.

It was an opinion not a eulogy. You know what everyone has besides an opinion don't you? Well, that's you that is :0)

Marc the plastics fan07 May 2009 8:46 a.m. PST

To L1A, yep, second that for your painting.

What is it with this constant knocking of people's painting standards. HaT are generous enough to send out test sprues to enthusiasts, not to professional figure painters. And on their website it is possible to see all standards, from all ages. And that makes it, IMO, a great hobby. I love well painted figures, and privately I may mock other lesser attempts. But in public. Oh I say, just not cricket what!

I don't hear this level of vitriol against, for example, the Charles Grant figures in Battlegames. Only against HaT's user friendly forum. I really do not understand this attitude.

And we wonder why newcomers find the hobby offputting sometimes……..

colbert Inactive Member07 May 2009 9:17 a.m. PST

I think Mr Butterweck has done a good job on these figures.
Regards,

fozman Inactive Member07 May 2009 9:52 a.m. PST

Hear, Hear, Marc…

I think that on too many occasions, people look at a painted figure close up & comment that it's not painted to "their" or a "professional" standard forgetting that, as a miniature, it's representative of someone a considerable distance away…
I'm a WW2 wargamer & I used to marvel at the level of detail that some painters managed to achieve on their WW2 German SS figures with their pea-dot camo… absolutely brilliant… and then I was at the Elvington Battlegroup North show a couple of years back & was talking to a renactor dressed in such a uniform… having exchanged pleasantries, etc, I then headed off (having had my break) back to our wargame that we were running… where I met up with my son who was just taking a break himself & turned to point out the guy I'd been talking about (by now around 60 feet away) & then it hit me… you couldn't see all of that detail… it merged into the background (doh!! that's the idea of camouglage, you idiot!!) & his uniform had blurred into a greenish/brownish overall shade….

This cheered me up no end as this then was a far closer match to my 1/72nd figures (representative of a 6ft man 72 feet away) than some of the painted figures that I'd seen…

Whilst it's still nice to see well painted figures, I think we need to be careful that we don't over criticise for the wrong reasons.

I really like the way that HaT allow anyone (young, old, good bad) to showcase their efforts… & I think it's a better way to encourage loyalty with purchases & encourage more money spent on their models & figures than if they took the "sorry, that's not painted well enough for us" attitude.

Just my two penn'oth

Garde de Paris Supporting Member of TMP07 May 2009 9:53 a.m. PST

I have not bought a 25mm ever, and only buy select 30mm Staddens and Willies on a rare and scattered basis. Last year was my 7YW year, doing Prussian, Austrian and French Old Glory 15's.

But these two sets appeal to me in a "mythical" way": Rousselot shows one voltigeur in colpak in one of his plates on light infantry,and I don't recall that it identified a specific regiment. It might be fun to do a "battalion" of all carabiniers – 4 to 6 companies – perhaps in brown as for the Legion du Midi; and a battalion of these voltigeurs in a type for Guard unit from a small, French-influenced state. Not too expensive to do. And could be fun!

I live in Texas. Does anyone on the Forum in Texas buy Hat figures, and where?

GdeP

Personal logo McWong73 Supporting Member of TMP07 May 2009 5:24 p.m. PST

These look very promising. Like some other posts, I'm not a Naps man, but I think Hat will get huge sales if they were the first to bring WW1 28mm in hard plastic to market.

BravoX Inactive Member07 May 2009 8:09 p.m. PST

@Chortle
I don't think that Perry, WG or Victrix really have
anything to worry about.

Their is a trade off between price and quality, HaT may be cheaper but they are not really a serious match for quality, which is fine, they are not trying to be, they will appeal to some, especially the existing HaT fans but traditional 28mm fans want more detail and they will stick with Perry etc.

Each to his own, both groups are happy which is a good thing isnt it?

Zvezda would be much more of a threat given their high quality at 1/72 but why would they bother to do 28mm, they can probably eat away at the market share of other 1/72 mfg like HaT for some time before they need to look at a small segment like 28mm.

The only ones I see maybe having a problem with this is WF who don't seem to be able to match the quality of the Perry's and also dont match HaT on price. They may just get squeezed out.

Longstrider Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member07 May 2009 10:43 p.m. PST

Rocking. Not really my thing, but this bodes well for HaT doing other periods too.

WF and Victrix have been more my thing than the Perries and WG so far, though. I think I actually enjoy the level of complexity that WF kits so far need, is all.

OttoMunoz Inactive Member07 May 2009 11:13 p.m. PST

I echo Patrick. I hope Zvezda makes 28mm plastic Ancients. or 15mm even.

I'm sure they will but later.

Otto
noizehive.blogspot.com

Personal logo Chortle Sponsoring Member of TMP Fezian08 May 2009 1:20 a.m. PST

Marc, I didn't mean that I'd seen useless poses in the particular 10 figures shown. I meant that your typical 1/72nd plastics manufacturer tends to throw in poses that are useless for wargaming. That is why I'd like to see 28mm plastics produced by wargaming "centric" companies.

Marc the plastics fan08 May 2009 2:02 a.m. PST

Ok Ch – although I think you may be a little out of date on your assessment of 1/72. I appreciate that these may not be your thing, but if you look at the modern 1/72 Napoleonics then I think you may agree that the days of "mole digging" and "highland dancing" have gone now.

The Zvezda Russian 1812 infantry set has:

12 marching (two different poses)
12 advancing/charging (two different poses)
6 standing firing
6 loading
3 reaching for ammo

Plus a 4 man command sprue – officer, drummer, standard and NCO So three boxes, around £15, gets three full 1:20 units

And that pattern holds true for HaT as well – you could peek via PlasticSoldierReview at their latest Nassau set, or their French infantry in bicornes and greatcoats. Both of these are "big box" sets with a full compliment of line. light and grenadiers, all in "wargaming" poses.

So I think the "traditional" wargaming market is being challenged quite hard by HaT, Zvezda and the like.

That is the problem though of being a (grown?) adult playing with 1/72 figures – I can get a bit defensive, evangelical even. Sorry

Marc the plastics fan08 May 2009 2:08 a.m. PST

How about this link?

link

Bx – they do look quite nioce don't they?

Lonkka1Actual08 May 2009 2:21 a.m. PST

Connard Sage,
the paintjob on these figs is hardly exemplar, especially considering the scale. Most of the pre-production stuff linked at HÄT site is unfortuantely MUCH worse. But like you said, they do look better from distance. I like the ones MacPhee just published in his log somewhat better:
link

Basically just pick up basically any magazine from our hobby and compare the level of painting in them to vast majority of HÄT pre-prod paintjobs. One would assume higher quality painters would be available but what do I know about HÄTs arrangements?

I certainly tend to look at my figs from gaming distance of, say, 2 feet. But then again, tend to paint them with more detail than needed for that but don't go overboard with it. Get them ready quickly so you can play with them!

As aside, I have no probs with HÄT figures and am happy to use them. Although some of their sculptors are not as skillful as others and sometimes producce somewhat crude figures.

scomac & Marc the plastics fan,
so are you saying that if you can't paint like Rembrandt or Picasso you got no business of being an art critic?

I'm sure you've heard that opinion as like, erm, rear end holes. Everyone has one.
In this discussion we have what you might call a case of Emperor's new clothes :)

HÄT should really acquire better painters for the pre-production figures: more eye-candy equals better sales. Sloppy paintjobs will just results in the too customary TMP bashing of the FIGURE quality when it is just a case of not having the figures painted in even remotely in the recent standards.

For all I care people can paint their figures how thay like using fingerpaints or whatever if they wish. Planty of non-professionals out there do manage to paint with "better" standards and it is kinda shame that HÄTs site doesn't portray more of these higher end paintjobs especially since I'm sure that these would encourage more people to purchase their products than the not so great paintjobs. Your mileage may vary.

All that being said, feel free to drop by at my club's site and browse around. For example at our 1808 section all the 15mm Finns have been painted by me (each figure took around 20 minutes to do, from clening up flash and to the final varnish).

For example, this battle report has some pics that contain some more close up pics:

link

BravoX Inactive Member08 May 2009 4:08 a.m. PST

Agree with everything Lonkka has to say!

For the record:
I have seen some crap movies, but I haven't won an oscar for directing.
I have eaten in some crap restaurants, but I can't cook.
I have seen some crap football games, with some crap players in it but I am not a pro-football player.

.. and I can recognise a crap paint job on a mini without being Dallimore …


PS:
Lonkka1Actual web site, nice stuff, those terrains boards are awesome!

BravoX Inactive Member08 May 2009 4:14 a.m. PST

@Marc
They are the best that HaT have done so far I will say that.

Can't quite make my mind up if I actually like them or not, they are at least "not bad", they are certainly above WF in quality, I personaly would like to have seen a bit more detail on them, and would have liked to have seen at least separate heads so they could give more variety when formed in a battalion.

The Jim Jones Cocktail Hour Inactive Member08 May 2009 12:47 p.m. PST

For any of these companies to survive, let alone prosper, they really need to be able to shift units outside of the wargames market, which is tiny. Ok the Perry twins can probably do what they want but the set up and tooling costs are going to mean a larger market. Economy of scale and all that.

HaT have a lot of experience in the broader market and a well developed distribution chain. There's hardly a hobby shop I can think of that doesn't stock their product, they outnumber boxes of Italeri in many places. On the ther hand I've seen but a handful of places and generally more gamer centric places that are selling Victrix, Warlords or WF.

I think these figures are quite acceptable detail wise and no doubt they'll improve as they develop in this medium. The WF Celts seem a vast improvement on their earlier stuff from the sprues I've seen.

If you asked me to guess the winners and losers, I'd say the winners, Perry aside are likely to be WF and HaT. WF have got it together when it comes to their marketing and importantly packaging. The boxes look nice and for those kids transitioning the ar work has a kinda fantasy feel. They'll gain the crossover market.

HaT have the distribution and pricing equation right. It look like they are deliberatly going for unfilled niches, which could be a smart move. Note their first releases were not yet another box of British or French line.

The losers, well I suspect those will be Victrix and Warlords. Victrix come off badly when you compare with the Perry stuff, and they've already acknowledged that the way they have boxed the stuff is a poor choice. Warlords business model, surprise, surprise seems to be a GW one. Fairly expensive figures marketed with ridiculoulsy expensive metal add ons. I loved the line about, we had to cast our 15 quid gun in resin to get sufficient detail. Their biggest problem is likely to be that historical gamers are less likely to be locked into the must have the GW trademarked elf/ monster thingy than kids and will buy elsewhere when price and quality are better. I know I'd rather buy a a Perry gun with better detail at a cheaper price. Looks like a crap business plan to me.

None of these folk will stand and fall by this market alone. They'll all need to sell to modellers/ collectors and kids. The ones that do that best will be the ones with a bigger market.

colbert Inactive Member08 May 2009 1:05 p.m. PST

Doug,
How do Victrix come off badly when compared to Perry stuff?
Regards,

The Jim Jones Cocktail Hour Inactive Member08 May 2009 3:55 p.m. PST

Poor faces from the packs I've examined. Button counters tell me the packs are wrong etc, which worries me less as I'm not really a Nappies buff. Add to that, with the Brits you have to buy something like 5 boxes of centre companies to one of flank to get a reasonable proportion and I can't see why you would bother.

The Jim Jones Cocktail Hour Inactive Member08 May 2009 3:59 p.m. PST

By the way if there was a soft plastic manufacturer that I'd like to see come into the business, it would be Caesar. Their latest 1/72 stuff is outstanding.

thehawk08 May 2009 7:51 p.m. PST

Bottom line – would I buy them? No, I'd wait for Victrix.

Personal logo ArchiducCharles Supporting Member of TMP08 May 2009 8:37 p.m. PST

Victrix vs Perry is really a question of taste Doug; you say faces are bad, I know many people who love them for that exact reason. Perrys might be very nice (I painted some, they are very nice), but don't expect any kind of variety in poses. Also, you get stuck with a single officer per box, and that is really annoying for someone like me who does smaller units.

Victrix are harder to assemble, and might look too caricatural for some.

Bottom line, it's a question of taste, and that's fine; there's something for everyone these days.

Finally, thehawk is right. I, like many others I suspect, will not buy Hat figures. I agree this is the best I've ever seen from them, and they are very nice for the price, but they are not in the same quality bracket as Perry & Victrix, as well as being a very different style from my current 28mm collection (and I don't think I'm alone on this either).

BravoX Inactive Member08 May 2009 11:30 p.m. PST

Couldn't disagree with Doug Zapaedo more, and I am in complete agreement with theHawk and the ArchducCharles.

I think Victrix are the equal of Perry, I like them both, buy them both and I am a Nappy fan of 40 years. I am certainly going to buy multiple boxes of all that both Victrix and Perry have in the pipe line.

I like detail, I like nice looking figures, I will pay more for detail if I have too, I would and do buy Victrix, Perry and Warlord for that reason.

The box art on those 3 is good, not that I care, I don't buy for the box art, but its at least as good as HaT or WF, both Perry and Victrix come with painting guides and flags in the box, Victrix come with a ruleset all good stuff.

The ones I currently wont buy are HaT and WF.

HaT will survive becuase they have fans who are happy with the lower level of detail and like really, really, cheap minis, even if they are not my cup of tea. Of course if they improve the level of detail I would buy them but I sort of think they won't becuase they are not trying to be traditional 28's they are trying to be big version of there 1/72 which is why their fans love them so much.

I am cool with that, each to his own I say, they will exist along side the others without one threatening the other as far as I can see.

However I can't see WF surviving, because even if they have improved a little bit they are still producing dire stuff, they still don't seem to have got the hang of digital sculpting, some of the animation is odd, and in the transition from sculpt to final product they seem to lose most of what detail the sculpt had in the first place and now they are not cheap either as HaT has come along.

Neither good quality nor cheap, so I can't imagine who would buy WF if there was an equivalent figure from HaT, Victrix, Perry or Warlord other than one of their pack of fanboys and as for WF marketing, it is nothing but a total disaster.

JohnnyBGoode Inactive Member09 May 2009 2:17 a.m. PST

I see more of a style issue than quality issue. From the link above -

picture (hat)

isn't any better or worse than

picture (perry)

The level of detail is the same, with Hat being more anatomical. Price isn't an issue here as they are all "cheap", but I won't buy any Victrix because of their caricature looking figures and because I don't want to spend half my time gluing figures together. YMMV.

Sir Sidney Ruff Diamond09 May 2009 2:42 a.m. PST

Lonkka1Actual

What a great site you have there. A nice change from the usual France/Allies v the rest. I may try and raise a Finnish army to complement the 1807 stuff I've got.

Thanks

BravoX Inactive Member09 May 2009 4:13 a.m. PST

@JohnnyBGoode
Your comparing green to green, but if you look at the actual plastic painted figure you will see there is a big drop of in quality on the HaT figures that you don't get with Perry.

I can't agree that the HaT is anymore or less anatomical then the Perry.

BravoX Inactive Member09 May 2009 5:49 a.m. PST

Actually has anyone noticed the similarity between the 1/32 and the 28mm masters.

link
link
link
link

Also looking at the 1/32 list does raise the question of the 28mm, where is the Light Infantry Chasseurs and Light Infantry Command?

JohnnyBGoode Inactive Member09 May 2009 10:31 a.m. PST

"so are you saying that if you can't paint like Rembrandt or Picasso you got no business of being an art critic?"

For the record:
So if you don't know anything about brain surgery should you be criticizing your brain surgeon?
So if you are an amateur chess player should you be criticizing a grand master's moves?
So if don't know anything about bikes should you be telling your bike shop what gears to go with your frame?

We have a saying in our business. "The customer is always wrong." You can tell me what you want done, but if you also tell me how to do it, it's going to cost you twice as much and double the time.

We see a lot of customers with grandiose pronouncements of what they think, but leave it to the pros, man. I see some people making a lot of these pronouncements here. What takes the cake is he also knows what others are going to like and buy and how metal and plastic companies go about their business!

I know that I like WF and I will buy WF. I know that BravoX won't buy WF. What no one knows is what "legions of fans" will do, certainly not you, or me. Only the legions of fans will know.

Lonkka1Actual09 May 2009 10:40 a.m. PST

Btavo & Sir Sidney,
thanks for the nice comments regarding the site.

Hopefully one day we'll manage to present even more info there. And if only I could get our webmaster to put the battle report of the biggest battle of war, Oravainen (not just the preliminaries)…

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