"What is Warhammer Ancient Battle's Appeal?" Topic

Pretty straight forward question really. Not looking to troll. I own WMA and know its shortcomings and benefits. WAB has so many other competitors today but still seems to hold its own. What makes WAB so appealing?

BTW Biblicals have always been interesting to me. Debating whether to start off in 15mm, 1/72 plastic featuring the excellent Caesar figures, or 25mm with my Old Glory army discount. (10mm is not an option.)

It is about the only historical rules you can get GW players to say they will even try.

The rules seem quite poor to me. Rather generic and with little or nothing for command and control or even morale.

But if all the active players you can find are GW players, it is about your only bet.

I do not know how GW changes the brains of people, but once they are in that world it is hard to pull them out of it.

DyeHard

Small unit tactics, customizable units that reflect historical (most of the time) variations, less abstract than almost any other rules. That's why WAB appeal to me.

I also play other rules systems when I feel like different level of battle tactics.

Armies that those with little or no cash/money can assemble. Colour in the rule books and on the tabletop. Fairly simple rules with lots of dice rolling. I've never been bored playing WAB – can't say the same for other systems that suffer from 'rigour-mortis'.

We forget of course that until WAB was on the scene, production standards were terrible. FoW/FoG and others may have surpassed these standards – but WAB led the way.

Success feeds on success – until quite recently I moved around the UK quite a lot, and having WAB armies meant I wouldn't be short of something of use at a new club, it being quite difficult to find somewhere where there aren't a few players.

Importantly of course, there is a decently sized, pro-active and supportive 'player-ship' and a vibrant online community.

I do not know how GW changes the brains of people, but once they are in that world it is hard to pull them out of it.

………. Could it be that the game system is … fun?

Mike B

Don't underestimate the power of rule books with lots of pretty pictures!

WAB isn't my cup of tea personally, its sort of at the opposite end of the spectrum from DBA. WAB in theory is based on individual models and their particular stats. DBA is the opposite, it is zoomed out at a "General's Eye" level, at which you don't care too much whether guys are carrying bows or javelins, they are all skirmishers.

Still, I must concede that WAB has many strongpoints.
1. Presentation: the rule books look good, are approachable to read, and have pictures to inspire army building.

2. Familiarity: There is a vast reservoir of Warhammer players out there who can pick up WAB in a few minutes. Who among us had not played Warhammer at least once?

3. Simplicity: Warhammer is simple, and its rules are intuitive, if not particularly elegant. WAB's mechanics are directly descended from good old Featherstone-style games. If you ever made up your own rules when you were a kid, there is a good chance they had at least some elements in common with WAB. (I know I did. I made up rules for some toy knights when I was 10. I gave figures a save bonuse based on armor type & if they had shields…) Everyone knows how to play IGOUGO games too.

4. Gritty Detail: Wargamers are fixated on weapons and equipment, and WAB factors that in.

A base set of fun and simple rules with supplements for different periods containing more specific rules, scenarios and information pertaining to each period. The ability to play small skirmishes up to huge battles. Point system for fast and simple throw down games. Quick decisive games that reward aggressive play. Command and Control is not represented in the traditional way but through Leadership tests (break, panic, psychology, rally). I think traditional C&C and morale would probably bog the game down and negate much of it's aggressive nature.

Adrian

There are a few reasons I like WAB.

First and foremost, WAB is a game of toy soldiers. If you prefer to think of your units as "elements" and not "groups of men" then you won't get the visceral part of why people like WAB.

It's surprisingly fun to watch a unit get ground down man by man, counting casualties and rolling lots of attacks.

I mostly use WAB for "Dark Ages", for which it is a very good fit. (And coincidentally, DBA is a very boring fit.)

I'm a pretty big fan of DBA (though not DBM), and WAB provides a nice counterpoint to the "one size fits all" DBA approach.

WAB is also one of the few games I play that actually models the fact that most soldiers are killed after they break formation.

People criticize WAB for being a "skirmish game in battle game's clothing". From what I have seen, you can run anything from skirmishes (<1000 pts) to small actions (2000pts or so) to battles (10,000pts) that start to feel like big battles, though the larger games do take a number of hours to play.

Yes, it has a "backwards" control system that only kicks in once the you-know-what hits the fan. And no, there is no command system. (Though like V&B, you can get a very good simulation of one by playing multi-player games.)

But it's just fun to play, which is the whole point of "play".

Armies that those with little or no cash/money can assemble.

Really? Not so's I had noticed. DBA can be played with 40 figures or so, but WAB is just getting started at that number, and most 2000pt armies weigh in at 100+ figures. Given that most people play in 28mm, you're looking at a relatively substantial outlay. (Yes, I KNOW you can play in 10mm, but the "WAB culture" is 28mm.)

Check out the long answer: TMP link

A game of WAB is easy to play, easy to understand, and very easy to find opponents. I am not sure on the game being cheap. My 28mm Romano-British are easily the most expensive army I own.

Don't forget the timing.

Pre WAB, there was hardly any interest in 28mm Ancients, other than the older gamers who had WRG era stuff still in use, but lots of great figures were being made in 28mm.

WAB was the mechanism for guys to re engage in the painters scale of choice.

Coinciding with DB staleness setting in, it was the right scale at the right time.

Having the small armies it does was an added encouragement for the scale shifters.

I think the rules themselves have always been secondary to this (for the non GW players changing over, anyway)

I'm a WAB newbie who scorned it (without having played it, natch!) for a long time for all the usual reasons. Now I like it – its fun, lots of fun. What more is there to say, really?

Bottom Line: It's a fun, easy game to play.

I tried playing DBM and DBA first, but I couldn't get into the idea of lining up your troops from wall-to-wall (or table edge to river's edge) and pounding away at each other until the other side broke. I also didn't enjoy the micro-measurement concept. WAB allows more maneuvering and a little more flex in measurements.

I fully admit that WAB isn't the most historical ancients game around, but the people I played with, and me, enjoyed researching the history and uniforms of the periods.

Frankly I probably wouldn't have ever played ancients if it wasn't for WAB -- and I'm a dedicated historical wargamer. (I've never played 40k or Warhammer.) And I now have a Saxon, Norman, and Byzantine army -- I just sold my Celts.

I find it strange that people are still trying the "pretty picture" shot, especially with FOG using the same trick now. Oh well.

It's the gameplay in WAB that attracts me. The rules may not be incredibly difficult to pick up, but that's a good thing. Instead of needing a Masters degree just to understand the rules, one can get on with playing the game itself. For all their simplicity, the WAB rules provide everything I am looking for; a flexible, fun, smooth running set which can provide as historical a match up as the player wishes.

WAB is great fun; it offers me a fantastic battle each time and is never the same twice. Thanks to the chance factor of the "bucket of dice," even the best laid tactics and plans can go horribly horribly wrong. Just as in real life, events, fate and sheer chance can flow against even the best, and battles are never totally predictable.

This unpredictable element of chance makes the game exciting, a real thrill, and it encourages players to try and use the best tactics, with the best timing, to maximise strengths and minimise weaknesses, in an attempt to tip the balance in his favour as much as he can, – just like a real general would. For all it's "simplicty" WAB has depth.

As I touched on earlier, WAB also gives me the character and personality I am looking for. Romans feel like Romans, Vikings like Vikings. Cavalry cannot take on formed infantry head on and archery isn't all powerful. Things are as they should be. The character of peoples are portrayed nicely, delivered by the means of special rules, but without going overboard (usually). Armies with personality attract me far more than the abstracted list of stats that other games offer. WAB gives me that flavour. The Supplements are researched well and provide page after page of very useful inspiring information and background. When I buy a WAB supplement I know I am getting a quality product filled with information, history, and armies embued with suitable personality. WAB supplements are not just page after page of soulless stats and nor are WAB armies.

Command and control is admitedly minimal but the pyschology aspect touches on the morale factor and is fit for purpose. Indeed the pyschology is another aspect that I love about the game. I love that even Romans, (the apparent "Supermen" of history) when hit in the flanks, are as prone to Panic as anyone else. I have watched entire armies melt away, as one unit after another failed its leadership test, lost its nerve and joined the rout – a battle lost in a matter of moments – all because just one initial unit turned and ran. So the "no morale" criticism is not entirely accurate. Yes there could be more in the way of Command and control and morale, but it IS there, however simply.

Tactics are a factor too. You can play WAB as a simple head on charge meat grinder, but just as in history it is getting on the flanks that is the real decider. I like that in WAB one can actually employ tactics to a degree – even historically accurate ones. Indeed, many list specific special rules – there to provide character – encourage this.

To be fair I did try FOG, but for me the abstractness was too acute. The game lacked character; there seemed little real difference between a Roman and a German for instance. I missed the individual effects of weapons, the pyschology, the specific differences between peoples. For all the many many lists in FOG, for me, they were just that. Lists; without setting, history or personality. For that reason FOG just didn't grab me the way WAB did, and nor has any other game for that matter.

It is a personal choice at the end of the day and each to their own. I'm not saying WAB is "better" than other games – it's certainly not perfect. But WAB fulfills a certain niche, one that is appealing to many. For me and my needs specifically, it ticks all the boxes. With WAB I get to play the historical wargame – with a historical feel – that I look to play.

Others already have stated the fun and (relatively) easy part, although I suspect WAB is easy like chess is easy: the rules are mastered in a day, the game may not be mastered in a lifetime :o)

It is also much more historical than it usually gets credit for. It is the only ruleset that I know that simulates the Roman manipular tactics (or at least one theory about them). It does not overpower cavalry, like a lot of rulesets do. It causes different troop types to behave in different ways (for example a Roman legionary army fights totally different than a Celtic one). Battles usually develop in the way the history books tell us they did: maneuver, encounter, breakthrough somewhere followed by chaotic pursuit and isolated skirmishes instead of the "you've lost X points so I won" approach. Maneuvers matter, so flank protection is a must-have, like it was in reality.

I think WAB has C&C, but to agree with me or not depends on your definition of C&C. The vicinity of a general or standard combined with troop quality usually yields realistic results. Fights to the dead are rare.

Of course there are the uber-characters that you'd better avoid, but any ruleset can be broken if you try hard enough. And one must keep in mind that unlike other rulesets WAB armies function best against contemporary opponents (but how would Sumerians have fared against Norman knights, I wonder?).

Oi Scutatus! You beat me to it. If we ever meet, I owe you a beer :o)

a very good question

Midpoint it was not Warhammer ancient that lead the way rather it was Tactica by Arty Conliff and printed by Dave Waxtel. This was the first set of historical rules to actually put the bar up and not many rules even today reach that height.
William

Basically if you like a bottom up approach to rules you will enjoy them. It's also easy to find your way around the rules after a few games. The rules are intuitive. I find that for big battles (say 4000 points plus) they give pretty historical results. Smaller games can be a bit luck orientated. They work well with in-period games, and in my view encourage that style of play. The special rules for different troop types add to the flavour – a model is not just – move 5", +3 vs mtd, +2 vs foot, which basically could refer to martians or challenger tanks or anything. They're not DBM.

I chose my game system by looking at the club and the people that were playing the two choices.

I WANTED to play DBM. But the 12 DBM players were a bunch of humourless Fat s who would argue soap was sweeties. The WAB players were cheerful, humouress lads who I liked and respected.

Still Do.

Pat

Oh, and CPBELT – The Excellent Caesar (and Hat's Assyrians) are the ONLY way to play WAB Chariot Wars.

Pat

Caesar is the way I want to go. I'm able to get a really sweat deal on some of the boxes. I checked last night, and Caesar has taken some sets out of production: H008 Hittite Army, H009 Egyptian Army, and H022 Biblical Era Libyan Army. Ergh. I hate that about Caesar!

Seems WAB is in a transition period. I saw on the WAB homepage that a 2nd Edition is coming out. Will this radically change the game like happens with WHFB? When is it coming? Will it affect the codexes? I can get the 1st Edition cheap. Would this do me ok? Or should I wait for WAB 2 or just plunk down the cash for WAB 1.5? Questions questions! :-)

I'm looking for easy because this is one of those games I will be taking to our church for newbies to play and probably some kids as well. Our assistant pastor is interested, which makes it nice.

Just got done playing around with my Caesar Chinese figures on 20mmX40mm bases and it looks like they will fit, two or three to a base depending on pose. After looking at some photos, I assume this is true for the chariot war figures as well.

To the point: Which would give me a better Chariot Wars game? WAB or WMA?

"I saw on the WAB homepage that a 2nd Edition is coming out. Will this radically change the game like happens with WHFB?"

No, not really. It's mostly minor tweaks that needed to be made.

"When is it coming?"

Only God knows for sure. The scuttle-butt says November this year but… who knows for sure? They have some legal issues to iron out within and their own befuddled mess.

"Will it affect the codexes?"

No, it probably will not.

"I can get the 1st Edition cheap. Would this do me ok?"

Yes and you can probably get it cheap at a flea market.

"Or should I wait for WAB 2.."

_IF_ you can wait then yes. It will be months so… only you can decide.

"or just plunk down the cash for WAB 1.5?"

Not a bad idea but…. with 2.0 coming out you will probably want that. You'll have to make these tough calls. If the guys in your area are playing WAB already then wait for 2.0 if they can help you out and provide a few photo copies of important pages and charts.

"I'm looking for easy because this is one of those games I will be taking to our church for newbies to play and probably some kids as well. Our assistant pastor is interested, which makes it nice."

Okay then… buy 1.5 and give that one away when 2.0 comes out. You'll have the new version and the old version will get passed around to encourage others.

Oh WAB by a long way. WMA is too linear.

I play WAB in 20mm for Chariot Wars, as the swirling masses of chariots – up to 40 on the table in a 2k per side game – really need the space.

Would you do Chariot Wars in 28mm when a chariot costs a tenner? My Egyptians would have cost £400.00 GBP in Metal, they cots about £60.00 GBP in plastic. I have seen Chariot Wars armies at Tournaments with 4 chariots in. Where is the fun in that?

Pat

The Chariot Wars supplement has all the lists you'll probably want. That period is GREAT in WAB. The larger the table the MORE fun you'll have.

WAB 1.5 is just WAB with the online errata attached, some very basic army lists and a new scenario or so. (The "Border Patrol" scenario is also in "Siege&Conquest", fwiw.)

Since it looks like you're interested in Biblical Era fighting, grab a copy of "Chariot Wars" and the original WAB rules. Then go download the extra rules from the WHH website. If you can afford the extra money, the 1.5 book is a good choice.

The "word on the street" (such as it is) is that WAB 2.0 won't be out before the end of the year. But there is very little information available about WAB 2.0….

If you get the OG Army Card buying armies is not that expensive at all in the US. I started this way and then expanded it with other company's miniatures over time. I have over 9 OG Egyptian chariots and then bought some Foundry ones… when they were less expensive. I rarely use them all though. I then bought Assyrian, Trojan and Sumerian armies.

I play and enjoy several other Ancients rules, but I would say WAB is successful because it is shiny, easy to play, and widely available.

It's fast, furious and bloody. And lots of fun.

The good production values, high quality supplements and large and active community of devoted followers are a bonus.

I'm not a big fan of the rules themselves but I buy the books as supliments for other wargames. The WAB books go into great detail about the armies history, how to use them, and how to biuld and paint the army. Something the other companies don't do and seem to just expect everyone to just know, for somebody new to ancients or another period thats pretty frustrating.

"What is Warhammer Ancient Battle's Appeal?"

Those who play it enjoy it.

Another factor compared to the DBx family is the easy scaleability.

Unless I buy a DBA-specific army pack, any ancients or medievals I buy will have spares once the army is built. Spares that will probably live in my bits box even after the army has been sold off.

Using WAB, spares are just a few more points, or are flexibility in army building, or are the start of the next unit.

Similar to Alexander Keiths "Those who like it, like it a lot."

Chariot Wars and a copy of the rulebook is all you need to start Biblicals.

Lots of fun, rolling lots of dice.

I like it because it tastes good, but others like it because it's good for you! 8)=

Great game with lots of appeal.

On my shelf, I have a copy of the Wargames Research Group rules, published in 1980. Looking back, I wonder how many potential recruits to the hobby suffered brain hemorages just trying to figure out those rules!

Sorry, but if I am going to invest an afternoon in a game, I want to *enjoy* it! WAB is fun, not work.

I think it is the only game in town for 25-28mm players. Most of the other systems have gone over to 15mm for tournaments.

Thank you all for the input. I realize that some gentlemen do not approve of such "sell me on XYZ game" threads such as this, but I find the information most helpful, more than a typical review. We have little free time in our world today. When I was much younger, we would spend countless weekends on end playing game after game, trying to see if the latest SPI game was or was not broken. Usually, it was the latter. Life was simpler. We earned $3.15 USD an hour and had more to show for it than we do today earning $35 USD and hour. I wish I had time to play every game interesting me, seeing if it works or not for me. Since I don't have the time, your input has helped tremendously. Maybe I need to calm down, stop spazzing, and not try cramming all my varied interests into the time I have remaining and just enjoy myself while I can still physically hold a miniature.

"Would you do Chariot Wars in 28mm when a chariot costs a tenner? My Egyptians would have cost £400.00 GBP GBP in Metal, they cots about £60.00 GBP GBP in plastic. I have seen Chariot Wars armies at Tournaments with 4 chariots in. Where is the fun in that?"

I put on a Trojan Wars game that had about 20 chariots a side, I think the chariots cost about $125 USD or so a side, so maybe $250 USD total. Not really that bad.

And maybe wargames factory will put some out in plastic and we can get hard plastic ones. I could see my trojan wars armies doubling in size if they put those out.

The example below might be a good illustration of the souplesse of the rules. Last night a buddy of mine and me played WAB 2nd Punic War (Italian list) for 2500 points each. His sturdy Roman legionaries with their usual sparse skirmishers and crap cavalry against my polyglot Carthaginian mercenary force made up of Gauls, Spaniards, Italians, Spanish and Numidian horse and Lybian spearmen.

The Roman cavalry appeared on my right. I started out to harass them with my Numidians and slingers and moved my heavy horse from my left to my right wing to assist. The C&C system as is there allows for this flexibility, shall we say; the initiative of a talented cavalry commander. The rest of the line stolidly stood their ground (including the usually impeteous Gauls) while the cavalry battle developed on the right and the skirmishers clashed in the middle. His velites eventually drove away my skirmisher screen but lost heavily in the process, minimizing their effectiveness for the rest of the game. On the right the Numidians narrowly evaded the wild charge of the Roman cavalry (in WAB you can attempt to evade a charge!) and subsequently mauled and routed them even before the heavy horse could come to their aid. My cavalry then tangled with the tough triarii making up the Roman left wing and had a hard time dislodging them, losing valuable time.

Because in the meantime the Roman battleline rolled forward and eventually came within my charge range. The whole Carthaginian line charged as planned, to hold the Romans while the cavalry would envelop them and attack them in the rear. But the charge didn't pan out as planned. The Romans lost lightly and easily held their ground (huge amounts of 1's and 2's appeared here from my hands) and my damned Gauls even lost and broke, crumbling my left wing into routing barbarians, enthusiastically pursued by the Romans. The Spanish and Lybian spearmen desperately tried to hold the line, but the Roman meatgrinder of ever exchanging maniples slowly cut them to pieces, , standing their ground, time working in their favour and hardly losing any men (more 1's and 2's…). The Numidians managed to outflank and destroy the Roman left flank, but it was all too late to save the center. Losing badly against the manipels in front of them and threatened from behind by those returning from driving off the Gauls, Carthage just didn't have what it took that day….

In the end, my outflanking cavalry was too slow to attack the Roman center from behind, what should have sealed their fate. Alone, the Lybians had no chance to hold against them in the long run. Roman speed, discipline and tactics triumphed over the inferior Carthaginian infantry and less-than-perfect timing on the cavalry's part. A perfect Roman victory, that developed and ended exactly as described in the history books, but could easily have become a similarly historical Roman defeat.

Yes of course Pillie, but ANY sytem will give a good historical game if both players, of good will , intend it will.

Try a 'winner takes all' WAB Tournament for the opposite results.

'The list says I can have 160 Crossbows in my Crusader army, so i will TAKE 160 crossbowmen in my Crusader army', or even more famously 'My Spartans with the Sacred Band Special Rule must be the smallest Hoplite Unit in my army. Therefore I will take 1 Hoplite Unit of 90 Spartan Sacred Band.'

Pat

But that's the fault of the army list writer, right?

So what is the verdict here? WAB plays well with players interested in simulating the period, but it can be horribly abused in some cases, so beware playing strictly for competition.

All of the above comments are apt, but the true secret of WAB's appeal is that you can arm your General--be he Ramses, David, Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Sun Tzu, etc.--with a sword in each hand, thereby getting an extra attack when he charges into melee in the front rank & thus routs his foes; it's how all the great leaders won!

Don't play in competition tournaments. As has been stated the generous fleixibility of the lists can be abused by overly competitive "power gamers" – which are more often found at tournaments.

Play instead with family, friends and hope-to-be friends at clubs and round each others houses. Then you are more likely to get historical compositions and match ups, not to mention have plenty of fun. In my opinion it is at this level that WAB excels.

My two cents.

(And I know you jest Spurious but youare right that WAB is so flexible that it allows that. Basically one needs to emply some common sense and some wisdom when equiping characters. Personally, I always avoid that kind of "Hero" thing in my WAB games. General at the back and few to no characters is my way).

Yes of course Pillie, but ANY sytem will give a good historical game if both players, of good will , intend it will.

While I already stated that any ruleset can be broken if you try hard enough, I daresay that not every ruleset will give a good historical game, no matter how hard you try. WAB can at least do that.

I very much enjoy WAB, especially on a large multi-player game. with 3-6 players per side, it's easy to run at conventions and club dates, especially when some may not have played before. I act as umpire to keep things moving and to settle any rare dispute that shows up.

But yeah, its FUN, easy to learn and very intuitive.

spurius, can you name me a list in WAB that allows extra hand weapon for your general? I can only think of one out of about 60 lists.

The idea that poweful characters can win you games of wab is a sign of someone who has played or seen a fabtasy game and assumed WAB is the same.

It ain't. with the exception of the Shieldwall book, where rather more powerful characters are a flavourful element in what represents rather small-scale armies, characters in WAB are almost entirely undepowered.

Pat

Pat

I was going to write the same thing, Pat! I had a similar discussion on another thread where somebody kept calling WAB "Herohammer". I don't think the rules could be any further from that if they tried to.

WAB is based on 5th edition WFB, which WAS Herohammer. That was the fault of the fantasy army lists, however, NOT the rules.