"Prestor John" Topic

I'm thinking of doing a campaign involving a black christian kingdom decended from Prestor John, set in southern Chad.
Any ideas as to what it's army might look like?

Black guys with spears, dressed for tropical climates?

Religion wouldn't change much about the tech base or the climate.

What period would it be set in?

Victorian

Prester John ranged anywhere in legend from Nestorian Christians in Mongolia (who did exist) to Abyssinian Christians in … Abyssinia. Were they Nestorian, too? I forget.

For them, I would use a mixture of Foundry Nubians, anybody's Mahdists, or Castaway Arts Abyssinian troops.
Blemye would work also. These are Byzantine era Sudanese, or Nubians.
Foundry Nubians have some excellent nobles.
Western Sudanese (Mali, Songhai, etc.) would be very colorful quilted armored African cavalry.

Since it is VSF, and you are making it up, this should give you a good range of figures to choose from.

I also have in the back of my mind doing a VSF Lost city of Zimbabwe, using the very figures I have suggested above. And, I think I will steal your Prester John idea for them, too!

There is an Osprey book on "Victoria's African Enemies", which has a page or two of very colorful Abyssinians. Castaway Arts figures are based on these.

Finally, read "Flashman on the March", which takes place in 1869, and involves Flashman in Napier's expedition against King Theodore of Abyssinia. You can use a Halle Berry figure in a VERY short tunic. Flashman books, besides being fine comic literature, are very fine for history and a feel for the period.

I forgot to add that I have a bunch of Foundry Masai that I will use too. Why? Because I have them!

Here is a summary of the "history" of Prester (Presbyter) John, from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
link

Oh, neato! This ties in with Parzival too!

The horrible slaughter committed by the Mongols soon proved that they were no pious pilgrims bound for the Holy Sepulchre,

Well, duh.
I don't think the article mentions Mongol Nestorian Christians, although there WERE Christian, AND Jewish, tribes mentioned by Marco Polo.

Anyway, Prester John is a fascinating topic, and certainly worthy of a wargaming army in many periods, from Medieval times to VSF.

A reference to a map might suggest that a mythical kingdom located in what is now Chad (the name really didn't come into use until the establishment of the French protectorate in 1900) would really not have much connection with xenophobic Abyssinia/Ethiopia, even if nominally Christian. There's a big hunk of the Sudan in between…

A possible historical prototype might be the Sultanate (or Empire) of Quaddai. It maintained its autonomy from the c.17th until the c.20th, and had the potential for significant wealth due to its position on the major Saharan trade routes. Historically, in the c.19th, the Sultan got in bed with the Muslim Senussi Brotherhood to oppoose the colonial powers, so that's one political change to make to the model! Or not…

Currently, there are Austrian EUFOR peacekeepers hanging out there:

link

The top photo on the right (expandable for a good look) is of the ruins of the old capital at Ouara.

Allen

Blemye would work also

Does anyone make these I didn't find them on the Foundry site. I have a bunch of Castaways Abyssinians I'm useing for the Second Anglo-Abyssinian War I've also dusted off My Zanzibaris

There was an Umberto Eco novel about a guy trying to find Prester John's kingdom. It got increasingly surreal, and seemed to mix in some of Herodotus' old fables about people in far-off lands (Blemyes?) with their faces in their torsos.

Don't forget the Wilbur Smith books Birds of prey and Triumph of the sun which deal with this subject

How about colonial officers and European elite troops supported by native Sudanese type troops

I'm thinking Gordon at Khartoum….

Someone used to make "true 25mm" Blemye. I think it was Minifigs, but I am not sure.
In this Golden Age, someone since the early 1980s MUST have taken up the stndard to make them in 28mm!
As I recall, they were vaguely Byzantine looking cavalry (like the Prussians of the 18th C, Byzantines were the fashion setters), but barefoot with Negro features.

"I'm thinking Gordon at Khartoum…"

Or Emin Pasha with a Sudanese garrison in Equatoria…

Or Marchand with his tirailleurs at Fashoda…

Or Bonchamps trying to get there through Ethiopia…

There are sufficient of strange and wonderful characters and events in the historical timeline that you don't have to stray too far to adapt something for VSF.

Allen

I don't recall anyone doing Blemmye in 25-28mm since Minifigs' PB range, and that was only… one archer and one cavalryman? Several 15mm ranges of course: Tabletop, Falcon, Donnington…

Now there's an opportunity for a figure manufacturer: Blemmye, or Nobades/Nobateans, or Ballana (X-culture).

Allen

My take on VSF is that it was at a time when the incredible was still credible.
For instance, in Science, things like Relativity and Quantum science were still not discovered, Science thought it had discovered everything there was to be discovered, but there was some unsettling stuff on the fringes…
The Laws of Thermodynamics were still being formulated, and not yet proven.

In Geography, there were still white areas on the maps.

So, your project need not even include much SF in the VSF. It could just be history or geography that took a slightly different track. Like King Solomon's Mines.
Who knows what lies just beyond "the great gray-green greasy Limpopo." Or maybe 500 miles beyond… Or at the Sources of the Nile.

… one archer and one cavalryman?

Yep, that was the definition of a "range" back in the 1980s.

The Minifigs noble rider wasn't so much influenced by Byzantine fashion. He was straight out of Barker (either 1st or 2d ed. AEIR), with a croc hide cuirass, I believe, and ram's horns on his helmet!

When Tabletop did theirs in 15mm, there were "early" cavalry that were more Meroitic and primitive (like the Minifigs), and later that used the same helmets and other kit as the TT Byzantines.

Allen

OK, I never bought any, and Phil's many accomplishments did not include that of artist.

No: no, they did not.

There's an early John Buchan novel called 'Prester John', set in southern Africa c.1910 or so. It involves a native rising, with a charismatic leader who makes claims to ancient powers, as far as I recall.

On a scale of "I know racial attitudes have changed, but I am having a hard time reading this," it rates about 16 out of 10.

With differences in scale (*large* kingdom?) and religion, the setting could be reminding of both H. Rider Haggard,'s [1886] She link and Pierre Benoit's L'Atlantide link .
Both made their way to the silver screen and were adaptated in TV series (and I remember another TV series that draw heavily on the common ideas). In the movie with Ursula Andress the Kingdom of She is 'Ancient' (a mixture of Egyptian and Roman) as is that of 'Antinea, l'amante della Cita Sepolta' link but in L'Atlantide (the novel) it as contacts with the 'exterior' and its warriors would have modern weapons.

Some points of contact also with 'The Mummy' and 'The Mummy returns' movies: I don't know if they are available as minis ('pulp'?)but both the 'good boys' (the Medjai picture ), and the Egyptian 'baddies' in red of the 2nd movie would fit in such "Prestor John" setting. (of course both heroines in 'pharaonic' dress link would grace *any* game, but it's another topic entirely).

That rascal Jack! I wanted to keep that bit of esoteric knowledge to myself! (Mainly 'cos it's pretty dreadful.)

You can read Buchan's "Prester John" online:

classicreader.com/book/1260

It ain't his best work, not by a long shot.

Allen

I make no claims to martial arts expertise, but I do wonder why Egyptian women would fight with Okinawan sai. Perhaps because it's VSF or pulp?

Same reason an Amazon princess in ancient Greece would wield a pair.

picture

We needn't go into Cartman or mutant turtles…

Well, the mutant turtles are ninjas, so that's historical.

Well, let's see.. Given the distance involved, and lack of communicaiton, it's possible that they may have simply gotten a few of the details incorrect, or just have some odd interpretations of them. They mght also not get as hung up on the imagery of the cross, picking some other design for their standards.

Bear in mind that according to the thought of the time, converting would change someone from a heathen barbarian into a pious gentleman. With that thought in mind, any army fielded would look rather similar to a standard european one, though with more spears, and fewer horses, bows, and swords, and the obvious racial differences. I could see Prester John leading his troops wearing a symbolic crown of thorns, a cape of brightly-colored feathers, and some gold jewelry.

Excellent idea by the way. I shall be stealing it to incorporate into a role play game I've been planning themed on a search for Coleridge's Xanadu in Asia. Prestor John will fit right in.

Actually, I'd think Rider Haggard's later Allan Quartermain books would be more relevant, after King Solomon's Mines, Quartermain goes off with Sir Henry & friends, they find a 'Lost Kingdom', much fighting & in the end Quartermain does a 'Moses' & dies after the final battle which sees Sir Henry installed as King. A lot of plot elements familiar from KSM, but it never made it to the big screen (again & again).

I could see Prester John leading his troops wearing a symbolic crown of thorns, a cape of brightly-colored feathers, and some gold jewelry.

That'd be cool I'm not sure about finding a figure though.

I think I might use Castaways Sub Saharan Africans, (Mali and Chadians) mixed in with My Foundrys askaris and maybe some Abyssinian thrown in to boot.