"New Turnbull Book..." Topic

due out november:

link

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm glad to see he's not churning out the same book in another form. I'll probably pick this up.

How is Turnbull as far as being accurate? I have noticed, as my interest in the period has grown,that he is the author of numerous books (alot of Ospreys) on Samurai and warfare in that area of the world.

He seems to be the most prolific English scholar in east Asian warefare. I'm not sure how accurate he is, but he seems to know his stuff and teaches the subject at Leeds.

THis looks like a buyer to me! Never knew about this, so I'm definitely looking forward to it!

Damon.

As for accurate, it depends. One of the big criticism I've seen regarding his works is that he often translate modern Japanese scholars without really looking at the source material. For example, Mikael Adolphson has this to say about him in his excellent book on warfare and temples in Japan ("The Teeth and Claws of the Buddha"):

"In the West these images are similarly featured in publications that straddle the domains of popular culture and academe, as demonstrated most convincingly – or perhaps deplorably – in Stehpen Turnbull's work, Japanese Warrior Monks AD 949-1603. Despite his self-proclaimed expertice as "the world's leading English-language authority on medieval Japan and samurai warfare", there is very little one can commend about his work, with the possible exception of the sheer inventiveness with which the illustrator has created images of monk-warriors in battle (Figure 27). Relying entirely on a few Japanese works on the sōhei, the author eschews any analysis of the stereotype or of the monastic forces themselves and bases his representations almost exclusively on Tokugawa images, as indicated by the unsubstantiated claim that monastic warriors carried naginata around the year 1100."

His book on ninja is pretty much also fantasy land history, but on other topics he does a good job at presenting history in a easy to grasp way. Like a man in a pub that can weave great stories that he tells everyone who wants to listen, stay for the story but don't think that everything he says is true. "The most prolific" does not always mean "the best", especially when it comes to popular history writers.

I think I've got 8 Turnbull's already. I've vowed not to buy anymore. I mean, how many samurai reference books do a I need for one little DBA army? ;)

I'll buy this one also. I have three of his other books which I think are a compilation of twelve Osprey books. So if you wait long enough this will be merged with others for one low price.

Say what you will, Turnbull has done a great service, especially to non-specialists, by making this material accessible to non-Japanese speakers. Let the academics quibble all they will. I'll be happy to consider their evidence when it's widely available (and well illustrated). All this of course comes from a wargamers perspective!

Certainly worth a look IMO.

Reading Turnbulls "Warriors of Medieval Japan" got me hooked on asian warfare figures. Until that point all I ever did was ACW. I didn't even know what a Sohei was at that point. That was last year and I have been working on my warrior monk army ever since. I know that opinions vary, but I thoroughly enjoy his books. And as far as Adolphsons opinion, it looks like jelousy of the competition. But, I do intend to buy his books also at a later date. As far as I can see he only has two books out on the period and Turnbull has about twenty.

His best asset is that he operates a photo library on Japanese history so his books are packed with great pics. Most of his stuff is more or less basic history written from different angles. I have noted a couple of quesitonable assertions on his part – the ninja stuff, as noted above, a statement he made about kamikaze and a couple of other bits and pieces. He has a PhD with a focus on religion, but most if not all of his books are on samurai so go figure. For the most part, there's no issue, though.

tigrifsgt: if you read Adolphson's book it is pretty obvious that it is not mere jealousy, and that Turnbull's book on the subject is just shoddy scholarship. As I said I think Turnbull is great as an introduction to Japanese military history, just like many other popular history writer. This thread is evidence of how many people were drawn in by the clear and simple narratives he provides and the ton of illustration he use. I don't disrespect that at all. However, any reader who wants to get deeper beneath the "hell yeah! I'd love to see that on a tabletop!" should be aware that he is not the most rigorous researcher of primary sources. Heavens knows that there are tons of misconceptions of Japanese history among Japanese historians, and by just using them as a source you are bound to repeat the same sins. Adolphson's agenda is to circumvent the often lazy and sometimes baffling conclusions of earlier historians and really go to the contemporary sources, which is something I don't see that much in Turnbull.

Again, read Turnbull if you want brief info on a subject, but if you really want to get further into specific areas you better find a specialist in the field to correlate his stories with. If you don't you might end up believing in kickass ninja monk assassins throwing fire bomb shurikens. Really, comparing the two books on Warrior Monks is very telling:

Turnbull: ok, here's a bunch of pictures from the 17th and 18th century of warrior monks, they were totally sweet, all dressed in monk robes while fighting with their naginata and clogs!

Adolphson: eh, no. That's how later periods saw them. In fact they fought and looked pretty much like everybody else. Sorry, not much more exciting than that.

Turnbull is sometimes a bit quick to believe myths of samurai/warrior monk/ninja as combat monsters and asskickers.

Setsuko: Like I said I'm very interested in the warrior monk culture and I will read Adolphsons books when time allows. Thanks for the advice, have a good one. Condottierre:Pick up Warriors of Medieval Japan on amazon. It's a compilation of his books on Samurai, Warrior Monks, Ninja, and Ashigaru. It got me hooked.But does this mean that my hooded, naginata carrying figures that make up most of my small but still growing warrior monk are are wrong? And should I be mixing unarmored, plainly dressed figures with them?

condottiere: One example from both the ninja and the warrior monk books is that he uses very very late period illustrations (17th, 18th or even 19th century) illustrations as proof of both equipment, armour and fighting styles of much earlier periods, which is especially problematic when it goes against what sources from that actual period has to say. His ninja book is illustrated with pictures of sneaking guys in black pajamas, a stereotype unknown until long after the period he describes. Same goes with the warrior monks: the stereotype of the warrior in monk garbs, naginata and wooden clogs is very problematic and develops mostly in the Tokugawa period. But he even miss extremely basic problems with the history of monastic forces, such as that the very first mention of the word "sohei" in Japanese sources is from 1715(!). Again, it is a sin he inherits from the Japanese historians that he doesn't question well enough.

But I still find for example his campaign books to be very handy to keep around for reference when reading other books about battles, and compared to the anime fanboys you talk about debating he's a thousand times more factual.

tigrifsgt: to a degree, yes. There's very little evidence that monastic forces regularly fought in hoods and used naginata more than any other force at the time. If you wanted a realistic monastic force, it would look largely like most other samurai forces with warriors in full armour and few attributes revealing their religious connection, and most of the people fighting were not actually monks but rather people with some ties to the temples such as living on their land or making vows to avoid taxation etc. In battle, most priests were indistinguishable from warriors and wore identical armour. But hey, the Benkei stereotype monk looks cool, so it's not like I don't have and don't plan on getting more myself for my armies. Just be aware that the stereotype, embraced by Turnbull, is based on later period depictions rather than actual history.

Setsuko: My army is based completely on the warrior monk pictures in Turnbulls books. They have robes of orange, black, yellow, navy blue and tan. The different color robes look good when put out together. It gives them sort of an individualistic look per figure. I'll start to mix in some armed peasants and unarmored samurai when funds allow. Going out to do some yard work, then off to work. I'll be back on late tonight, USA Eastern time. TIG

My first Turnbull book was Samurai Battles and getting the book was because a friend gave me for Christmas the nintendo game SHINGEN,many years ago.

After playing that i wanted to find out more about Takeda Shingen(my favorite Samurai Leader),so Turnbulls book Samurai Battles was my first Samurai book ever.

Since that time i have maybe 40-60 Samurai related books,4-Samurai boxed games,a 15mm Samurai Army and many other things including movies on DVD.

Now the bulk of my Samurai books were written by Turnbull i think i have many of the books we wrote so far.

I do plan on getting this new book when it comes out.

Captain Gideon

"Say what you will, Turnbull has done a great service, especially to non-specialists, by making this material accessible to non-Japanese speakers. Let the academics quibble all they will. I'll be happy to consider their evidence when it's widely available (and well illustrated). All this of course comes from a wargamers perspective!"

Well said, and ditto!

Turnbull's books certainly got me interested in samurai history and gaming many years ago but I think even he would admit his main interest is the late sengoku-jidai period. Becoming more interested in earlier eras I found more in-depth information in the works of Jeffrey Mass, Paul Varley, Karl Friday, William Wayne Farris, Thomas Conlan, Mikael Adolphson, John Hall and the translations of war chronicles by Helen McCullough, William Wilson, Hiroshi Kitagawa and Bruce Tsuchida. On the more colourful and accessible end, books on arms and armour by Mitsuo Kure, I Bottomley and A Hopson are also useful.

Some of the more "academic" studies might not be full of pretty colour plates or be as easily accessible as Osprey but they're out there if you look for them. I'm not sure rating an author by how many pop-culture books they've churned out is a good idea. The more "academic" works inevitably require more time and in-depth research to produce – and inevitably will be more expensive than their pop-culture cousins.

Having said that I still think there are some Turnbull books with useful information; the ones on samurai heraldry, early castles, far-east siege weapons and fighting ships come to mind. I just prefer to verify as much as I can from primary-based sources and sometimes the lack of mention of those sources in his books leave me a bit doubtful…