"Alternate timeline... What if Dick III won?" Topic

Dastardly Dick wins at Bosworth, and the House of York is firmly ensconced on the English throne… or at least as firmly as it can be, given its nature.

Power is never consolidated by the Yorkists the way that the Tudors eventually would, and the majority of power stays in the hands of the great nobility, and, to a lesser extent, the Church.

England is still largely saved from getting drawn into continental affairs by two factors: 1. The French beat the crap out of them in the 100 years war and 2. They still have the English Channel, which largely keeps the European powers from invading the British Isles.

Protestantism only partially takes hold, as there is no central figure like fat Henry to decide the destiny of the English Church based on high moral principles , as a result, it is strongest in the emerging trade and industrial cities like Bristol and Birmingham, but most of England remains Catholic. The nobility and royalty jockey with religion much as the power players do in France and Germany.

I see a possibility of a much less powerful British empire, which remains turbulent because of kingmaking and civil wars between the noble houses which never really end. The nobility might even extend itself into America and the other colonies. A British Earl of New York or Marquis of Delhi?

Kind of fanciful stuff, I know, but roll with it. What effects on the 18th, 19th, 20th centuries and today? What about fantasy and sf possibilities.

Yes, I cross-posted this to Hell and back. Contact my lawyer.

What if excessive cross-posting would be declared a major crime on TMP, punishable through spanking by a red-headed goth chick wearing a Zardoz outfit?

Griefbringer

Wouldn't the punishment be greater if it was a red-headed dude in a Zardoz outfit?

Probably there would not have been a peaceful unification of England and Scotland.

Who wants peace?

"… punishable through spanking by a red-headed goth chick wearing a Zardoz outfit?"

That counts as punishment? Cross-post on!

See, I told you it should have been a dude. ; )

Wouldn't the punishment be greater if it was a red-headed dude in a Zardoz outfit?

That would violate the Geneva Convention not to mention the Accords of Kalia Tau 7.
How much would Dickie have hindered the growing Renaissance in England is my first Question? Union with Scotland was always a marriage away, Just the right prince/princess and a childless union on one side.
I have other ideas/questions, but need to ponder them first before I open my yap and sound like a toff. :^(

Would this dude make for a good punishment?

picture

Griefbringer

Sara and Cassie want to know if that punishment also violates the Honda Accords?
Not bad for 8 and 10 year olds.

*ahem*

Playing the ball and not the man here, I woul point Grape Ape to the following references -

PAVANE by Keith Laumer; Although having a different branch point ( Elizabeth I is executed by a successful Spanish Aramada ), the Catholic Church reigns supreme in England which become s a relatively advanced state in a world of lowered technological acheivement; Internal Combustion engines are limited to 120cc capacity, stema continues to operate everywhere but no railways, semaphore is the primary message system in 1976. Socially, the Inquisition still operates, and while some progress has been made in the field of slavery and individual rights it is still a very medieval world.

TOO MANY MAGICIANS and others by Randall Garrett – Again, different branch point ( Richard Lionheart dies while imprisoned and John becomes king ) and with a very different level of technology – codified and mathematically precise magic is the prime technology though science works – The cultural differences are profound; France and England are united and ruled by related kings, the Americas are not independent and the Anglo-Frankish Empire stretches across most of the globe, except for its main rivals Greater China, Russia and the Polish/Lithuanian Empire.

THE ALTERATION by Kinglsey Amis – More to your liking, but not exact ( Henry is killed by that fall from his horse ) that leaves England Catholic. Technology is again slowed, but America gains independence by economic and military means in the 1910s and begins a reformation based on Lutheran and Wesleyan priciples that allows it to develop steampunk-like sciences.

AFAIK no-one has exactly detailed a timeline like you describe, but you could cull somtheing together from those I suggest.

Birmingham didn't really emerge til C19th

FYI – PAVANNE – Keith Roberts (good book), not Laumer. You may have been thinking of Laumer due to his other alternate histories (Worlds of the Imperium – Plantagenets, etc.).

There are several other authors with alternate histories listed as well on the Pavanne wiki site -

link

It is an interesting source for speculation, but I have errands to run and will have to address it later.

James

Thats right, Birmingham is a small town up until the industrial revolution, around the 14th/15th century Sutton Coldfield, Lichfield, Tamworth, Warwick and Dudley are all bigger and more important.

Which would at least mean no Aston Villa or Birmingham City to blight the land…

goragrad, ouch good point. Pre-breakfast postings are not a good idea . . . :)

Thinking further on the main topic, the primary impact is taht England would have been less likely to fight in the wars on the Continent, so it would have been a case of every battle being refought without a major componenet. The Irish would still I suspect be involved,: in fact, given the mood of that nation at most times, it's possible that Ireland might have becoem Protestant all on its own. That aside, imagine some of the Eurpoean wars without England . . .

Who would have been the victors in those cases, and what would this have done to the map? Serious query for the less Panglossian historical players out there.

Interesting what-if, especially since Richard came *that* close to whacking Henry. I've walked Bosworth and seen where Richard fell, certainly changed my mind about the "dastardly cripple king." In terms of literature, Shakespeare wrote a number of plays to curry favor with the Queen in order to gain official permission for his theatre to operate. So would he have written "Henry Tudor" -- a play about a dastardly traitor? With a largely Catholic England, would there have been an Armada? Would there have been a much different 30yrs War and Wars of Religion? Or an English Civil War as it occured?

Richard would have had to produce an heir as well since his only son died in 1484. He had no surviving brothers, His sister or her children might have a Burgundian backed claim as the wife of Charles the Bold.

Just a little more spice for the stew.

Pavane is a great little read – one of my favourite books

Hunchback jokes would be illegal.

griefbringer – is that you? ;-p

Grapey: you will be hearing from my lawyer soon, bearing a writ of stifle for excessive crossposting.

The Reformation had already infiltrated the Church of England and the universities of Oxford and Cambridge during the mid part of the 16th century and was seeping into the common attitudes of people. I can't see any reason, king or not, why England ends up anything other than a Protestant country.

The real question is would WW II have ended in 1945 or not?

CooperSteveOnTheLaptop:

Birmingham didn't really emerge til C19th

Edwulf

Thats right, Birmingham is a small town up until the industrial revolution, around the 14th/15th century Sutton Coldfield, Lichfield, Tamworth, Warwick and Dudley are all bigger and more important.

By the early C15th Birmingham was the biggest town in the area, bigger than Warwick and Coventry. Granted there were only about 2000 people living here, but we still had a considerable metal working/clothing industry.

By the time of the Civil War, our arms manufacturing was quite considerable. (We produced over 15000 swords for Cromwell. Dirty Royalsits decided to pillage our beloved town, so we became Steadfastly Roundhead! Aston Hall was held by royalists, until Parliamentarians took it by force!) Then came the Gun manufacturing (We have an area known in the city as the Gun Quarter.)

Anyway, I digress.

Edwulf

Which would at least mean no Aston Villa or Birmingham City to blight the land…

Definitely would be happy about there being no Small Heath football club!!! But then again, when they yo-yo in and out of the Premiership, it's good to take 6 points off them!!