"Ferdinands in Normandy?" Topic

Just reading about operation bluecoat based on a lot of vets testimony and they descibe attacking a village with a dozen Ferdinands enscounced.

I thought there were only a handful of these beasts built and most of those conked out at Kursk. So were there any in Normandy?

Always curious about this as in the film , They Were not Divided, they mentioned knocking out a Ferdinand. (i know its only a film but one that acurately depicts a troop of 5 shermans with its firefly)

Interesting that continually the vets talk about tigers and 88s, very occassionally a Panther or MK 5 is mentioned. Also it seems that their piats as well as the 6pounders were reasonably effective, capable of knocking off tracks, encouraging the crew to bail, causing fires and even knocking some of these 'tigers' out.

Watching a TV documentary about Caen the other day and they talked about tiger 2s, in Normandy surely not?

Hiya.No there were no Ferdinands (or Elefants) in Normandy,most did go to the Eastern Front but if i remember correctly some were in Italy (Elefants i think).There were Tiger IIs in Normandy,a fair bit of photo evidence exists,not sure about them being at Caen though.Hope that helps?An excellent DVD by the way is Death and Destruction in the Falaise Gap.Loads of footage I've not seen anywhere else plus bonus newsreels from both sides.You wont believe how low those allied fighters flew.In one scene you can see the second aircraft flying through the dirt kicked up by the first fighters gunfire!!! Also excellent footage of 1st Polish in action.

No Ferdinands in Normandy – none, nada, zilch……

There were however Tiger IIs.

I`ve read a few reports of 6pdrs knocking out Tigers (this would need a lucky shot in most game systems though) :-)

Can't find the supplement, but Tigers IIs are featured in one of the FoW supplements covering the British in Normandy.

Gave me pause, but their research is usually pretty tight, whatever you think of the rules.

Normandy :

No Ferdinands/Elephants

Tigers yes, quite a few in independant Batallions.

Tiger II in Normandy on 18 July 1944 with the 503rd Heavy Panzer Battalion (schwere Panzerabteilung 503

Looked uo the ref now, 1st August, attack on St Pierre du Fresne by 7th Somerset Light Infantry.

So what were they if they werent Ferdinands?

Possibly Jagdpanthers, 88mm armed SPG's

They could have Jagdpanzer IVs or Jagdpanthers. Nothing quite matches the silhouette, but the Jagdpanzer had the long 75 that a Panther carried, and the Jagdpanther had an 88.

BTW, I thought a full troop of British Shermans was four vehicles including the Firefly. Which is correct?

After their failure in Kurst, they were withdrawn to Italy. Someone apparently thought that if they didn't work in wide flat plains then they must do better in cramped mountainous areas where they could maximise the advantage of their long range and minimise the problems with lack of turrets and MGs:-)

Troops of three Shermans plus one Firefly could be considered the norm although there were other organisations eg troops of three with the Fireflies grouped separately. Later in the campaign when more Fireflies became available some units went to 2 + 2. You can never say never but I don't think anyone (apart from Battlefront's "Armoured platoon" boxed set) used 4 +1

I have read that, on the East Front, The last Marder variation with the casemate at the rear was often reported as a Ferdninad; much as Pz IV H with the turret skirts were reported as Tigers. Could that have happened in the West as well?

And as far as I can tell from vetern's stories EVERY gun that fired at them was an 88; I am not inclined to take the calibre as an important point.

It would help if you provided your reference. The most quoted is John McMath in Patrick Delaforce's The Fighting Wessex Wyverns.

Not sure off the top of my head of the units involved but there are enough online and book resources that will tell you what the specific German Divisions were eqyuipped with.

You can find info on independant Pzjgr units and where they were and what they were equipped with at the time of the battle can be found here: link

This thread has appeared on TMP before. Can anyone remember the link? I've run a search and can't find it?

Cheers
Mark

We've had the 'Elephants in Normandy' debate before, my recollection (as I can't be bothered to search) is that some Elephant elements of the 654th fought during the Bulge while in transit back to Italy after refitting, but not in Normandy.

There were Jagdpanthers and there were Tiger IIs (both in the 503rd and the experimental ones with Panzer Lehr, the latter never saw action).

Jagdpanzer IVs were pretty rare in Normandy, many Divisional Pzjag Abts were back in Germany being refitted with them.

Ferdinands/Elephants were never used in Northwest Europe – there were two Abteilungs at Kursk, and the surviving vehicles were re-grouped into a single Abteilung, much of which was sent to Italy while some vehicles stayed on the Eastern Front – some were in action very late, Kampfgruppe Ritter near Berlin had 4 of them in 1945

Lentulus has, as usual, an excellent point – mis-identification was very common – in the 8th Army, every German AT gun seemed to be an 88, in NW Europe every tank was a Tiger (especially the PkIVs with Schurtzen) – my father-in-law's best friend was a gunner with 19th Royal Canadian Field Artillery who landed in Normandy and soldiered on thru Holland, and whenever he talked about a German tank he always called it a Tiger – including the one that brewed up his self-propelled gun

I could see Lentulus' point – there was probably some legitimate misidentification, but in my reading, I agree. both US and Brit soldiers tend to misidentify the guns and tanks that were used against them.

Funny, because they usually do that after going into great detail about being able to identify every caliber of round by its sound. I find it hard to believe that 88s were being used in indirect fire mode, which most veterans claim as well – but apparently everyone was shelled by 88s. Didn't the Germans have 105 and 150 howitzers to do that? :o)

I did a Bluecoat scenario way back and the German vehicles were mostly JagdPanthers. Might have been one StuG or Jagderpanzer too.
The UK units were equipped with Churchills as I recall.

There were none in Normandy. My best guess would be some open topped SP-Gun. The silloette would be close enough to be confused with a Ferdinand / Elefant if yu never saw one before!

Cheers,

Burkhard

P.S.: Gives a whole new meaning to "seeing the elephant"!

Yes, some Jagdpanthers were engaged during Bluecoat.

Here are parts of the OOB of my scenario.
(I think the mistake is that 654th Schwere PanzerJaeger Abteilung had fought at Kursk in Ferdinands.)

Operation Bluecoat
30 July 1944 Hill 226

German:
2nd Company, PanzerJaeger Abteilung 654.
3 JagdPanthers. 1 JagdPanzer IV/L70.

British:
S Squadron 3rd Scots Guard, 6 Guards Armored Brigade
13 Mk IV Churchill (6pdr and 75mm), 2 Mk V Churchill(95mm)

B Squadron Scots Guards.
13 Bren carriers. 3 PIAT, 3 2" mortars, 13 Brengun teams.

Reserve:
Squadron
14Mk IV Churchill (6pdr and 75mm), 2 Mk V Churchill(95mm)

Squadron
14Mk IV Churchill (6pdr and 75mm), 2 Mk V Churchill(95mm)

One of the veterans' accounts of Bluecoat has photos to accompany his descriptions of 'Ferdinands' and the photos showed StuG IIIs marked for either 9th or 10th SS (I forget which).

'Ferdinand' was sometimes used as generic term for any self-propelled heavy antitank gun – I've also come across Marders being referred to as 'Ferdinands'.

If i've got this the right way around:Ferdinands were sent into combat at Kursk where it was discovered that the lack of any MG made them vulnerable to enemy infantry with AT weapons,they were withdrawn,given an MG in the hull renamed Elefants and saw action in Italy/Russia.

Martin any references on nellies in Bulge?I've not come across anything and would love to see book etc….would make an interesting scenario.

It would help if you provided your reference. The most quoted is John McMath in Patrick Delaforce's The Fighting Wessex Wyverns.

Not sure off the top of my head of the units involved but there are enough online and book resources that will tell you what the specific German Divisions were eqyuipped with.

You can find info on independant Pzjgr units and where they were and what they were equipped with at the time of the battle can be found here: link

This thread has appeared on TMP before. Can anyone remember the link? I've run a search and can't find it?

Cheers
Mark

Spot on Patrick Delaforce's book indeed. To quote Capt R K Kerr – '…a Ferdinand (much the same as a Tiger and equally as nasty) appeared over the rise' but i think its the author that adds 'the tanks were Ferdinand monster SP guns.' Earlier Len Stokes says ' found myself looking down the biggest gun id ever seen, on the biggest tank id ever seen, which was encased in a layer of concrete and slowly moving towards me…'

Then later there are more Ferdinands mentioned. Whats the deal with the layer of concrete? HE says its moving, could just be the barrel, but more likely the whole vehicle was mobile.

None in NW Europe, none at Bulge, one company of Jagd Tigers from Schwjgdpnzer 653 which had been Elefants/Ferdinands before was meant to go to the Bulge but never made it due to rail problems.

One company was sent to Italy from 653 (I think).

Despite the no hull MG thing actually a lot were destroyed by mines at Kursk, quite a few by artilley and AT (including 2 that were re arming from a PzIII ammo carrier which took a direct hit and wasted them all) and only a small proportion can be put down to Inf losses.

Whats the deal with the layer of concrete?

Could mean Zimmerit. Or some STuGs had extra concrete armour.

Of the Ferdinands produced, about 50 survived Kursk and were re-equipped – as noted, some went to Italy and some went back East

Ferdinands showed up in the defense of Berlin, 1945.

Yup – in Berlin, Kampfgruppe Ritter had 4 of them

I think we've cleared that up then!

I've seen Stugs referred to as 'Mark IIIs'.

"German:
2nd Company, PanzerJaeger Abteilung 654.
3 JagdPanthers. 1 JagdPanzer IV/L70."

there were also no Pzjgr IV L/70 in normandy either, they were all Pzjgr IV L/48.

Martin: Danny Parker's "Battle of the Bulge" does not list the 654th in its OoBs, either among the starting forces or the reinforcements. Do you know what corps or army it would have been in?

He does show the 655th in OKW Reserve. (But it didn't have Elephants.)

The book "Alamo in the Ardennes " Mentions 5 elephants involved in the Northern attack of the initial bulge

if they didn't work in wide flat plains then they must do better in cramped mountainous areas where they could maximise the advantage of their long range

My experience is in Canada -- but you can see considerably further up on a hill looking around you than you can on a flat plain. On a flat plain small bumps, tall crops, wind-break hedges etc. limit visibility drastically -- on hills you see over all that crap. If you have a gun platform that doesnt move well, but has long range, putting them on top of hills where thay are master of all they survey makes good sense.

The book "Alamo in the Ardennes … "

I have that book, but I haven't read it yet.

Off topic but Brit/Canadian troops were 3 tanks; 1 Tp Comd in Sherman 75mm, 1 Tp Sgt in Firefly and Call Sign B was a Sgt/Cpl in Sherman 75mm.

Maybe worth mentioning.

During the fighting in the final days of the war, the British knocked out a Jagdtiger with a 4.7 inch AA gun. It was subsequently identified as an "Elephant".

Patrick R
Do you have any references for this intresting story? The use of a 4.7 inch AA gun against armour could open up a whole new area of study for historians of WWII

Best regards in anticipation of a reply
Gerry McGinty

Patrick do you mean 3.7 AA gun???Would have been the 32lbr if mounted on a tank and would have smashed anything thrown at it!!!
Maybe the Elephant mix up means Nashorns..They have a passing resemblance with the same gun but much thinner armour…..

Probably Jagdpanthers rather than Elefants, but as others have noted there are a large number of other possiblities.

BTW the Battlefront "5 Sherman tanks in a box" concept is to provide a spare tank for Squadron HQ; 3 boxes gives you three troops of 4(75mm X3 & I Firefly) & 3 tanks for SHQ.

Half of the story is here.

sturmvogel.orbat.com/653.html

Paddy Griffith did some research on the 4.7 inch in other roles. It appears that by D-Day all 4.7's were equipped with a small number of AP shells, but the V1 threat meant that most of them were pulled back to the UK to defend london. Apparently those that remained in the front lines were tied up to corps assets and very rarely used in the front lines, though some were used as more conventional artillery in Italy.

I found the reference on the 4.7 shooting a Jagdtiger some years ago, I think there was even a picture alongside a copy of the report, but I can't find it again.

Patrick R
To be serious, you MUST be meaning the 3.7 inch AA gun which was the heaviest mobile AA gun used by the army.
The heavier AA guns were static and I would reckon, never had an opportunity to fire at any enemy tank.
Also, even among the static guns, 4.7 was an unusual calibre – the 4.5 inch Gun Mark 2 being the standard weapon.

Regards
Gerry McGinty

I plead temporary insanity …

I humbly beg for an apology as it was indeed about a 3.7 inch.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa Maxima.

Sherman troops could either be three tanks or four, depended how the fireflies were allocated. Up to the CO.

Oh. THAT 653rd. The JagdTiger btn. That explains the "Elefants" in the Bulge.

Of course, the Jagdtigers never got into the fight either. They had originally been assigned to Panzer Lehr Division, in the 5th Pz Army. Then some bright boy decided to re-assign them to the 6th Pz Army. They got caught up in the traffic jam behind the lines and never got into either end of the battle.

projectmayhem

What movie are you referring to? Would like to check it out.

'They Were Not Divided' is a B&W flag waver about an American officer serving in the Guards Armoured Div in WW2. Notably principally for the sheer tonnage of real kit, ranging from the omni-present Covenanters to a real (and functioning) Tiger 1 and Stug III.

I cannot help thinking it is the same Tiger 1 as was used in 'Theirs is the Glory', but an impressive and surprisingly nippy beast nonetheless.

As film it isn't as good as say 'The Way Ahead', but it is OK and good for treadheads. It does commit the heinous crime of showing the British fighting in the Battle of the Bulge, showing that indeed 'They Were Not Divided'.

"in the film , They Were not Divided, they mentioned knocking out a Ferdinand."

In the film 'Theirs is the Glory', there is a scene where Freddie Gough estimates that Frosts bridgehead in Arnhem is being attacked by 200 tanks. That wasn't right either, although they do wheel out an immaculate Panther A complete with Zimmeritt and skirts to make the point (before someone blats it with a PIAT).

Hubert Essame in the official History of the 43rd Wessex Division, written I think in 1946, also mentioned 'Ferdinands' but we know them now as Jagdpanthers (654).

In British parlance of the time in Normandy, 'Ferdinand' referred to the 'Jagdpanther' I think the first time they had come across them, and both had 88's.

A pair of 3.7s allegedly engaged Panthers from Panzer-Brigade 107 at Veghel during Market-Garden. However, history doesn't record if they were successful.

Re Sherman Troops – British tank troops were three tanks (five troops per squadron) until the arrival of Fireflies. The troops were then expanded to four tanks each, though the number of troops in the squadron was reduced to four.