"1935: A Very American Civil War" Topic

Having been inspired by 1938: a Very British Civil War, I was intrigued with the idea of a Second American Civil War set during the Great Depression.
The premise is that the Great Depression was far worse then what is was causing a substantial rise in Right Wing and Far Left movements. This led the historically real "businessmen's Plot" actually working with the support of MacArthur and elements of the army. Roosevelt is overthrown by a fascist oriented Nationalistic government. Congress rejects the takeover becoming the Constitutionalists. The Civil War begins.
With this comes an uprising of the Communist, Socialist labor groups in a number of cities and locations across the Country. Also, Gov Huey Long declares a Separatist movement in Lousianna and Mexico decides to reclaim Arizona and New Mexico while the US is in Chaos. Throw in international support for the various sides, International volunteers and the sides being made up of numerous factions and you have a rather nice Civil War going.

Our wargaming group has written all this up in greater detail along with the various factions uniforms, weaponry, unit organization, slogans and songs and what side the US armed forces decided to support. We also have six scenarios to help everyone get started.
If you would be interested in seeing what we have done and what copies of our work you can e-mail me at paul.beck@wlc and I will send you our attachments.

Don't leave out Smedley Butler. One of my history professors in college was quite taken with him.

What is the Full email? Is this loosely based on SPI's Dixie?

It could have easily kicked off when McArthur broke up this lot

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

I thought about doing the same in the 1910's or 1920's. Wobblies, anarchists, nationalists, all sorts of fun things going on politically. What if Joe Hill's execution has sparked a mass uprising from the working classes? What if the executions of Sacco and Vanzetti triggered full scale guerrilla warfare from the anarchists? It's funny, many moons ago I thought the interwar period was dull!

Crimson Skies was a more pulp-y take on this idea. Some of the breakdowns there are interesting.

-Will

Email sent. My group has been working on the same thing. In fact I just started painting my Lindy's Legion fascists last night.

Sorry on the e-mail address,

paul.beck@wlc.edu

No, this is not based on SPI Dixie it is NOT a North verse South Civil War.

Why would American "fascists" want to overthrow FDR? He was advancing a similar agenda – centralized power and more government control of the economy and society.

More likely that it would be a coalition of free marketeers that would want to overthrow FDR due to his unconstitutional and constitution stretching (court packing, anyone?) programs.

Joedog,

Actually it was the opposite. Strong conservatives believed that Roosevelt was moving Socialist or even Communist. Thus the Businessmen's Plot to try and remove him. They saw the New Deal aas more of a Socialist/Communist agenda.

I am very interested in your gaming group's project and have sent you an email.

Hurrahbro,
One more reason to love ole Doug huh?

OK, here is someone to lead the Anti-MacArthur forces:
link
He had TWO Medals of Honor, so there! He also EARNED his, unlike Doug.

And, some background:
link

Paul, good stuff.

Milwaukee had a Socialist mayor at this time.

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The second of Milwaukee's three Socialist mayors.

John the OFM,
I hope you didn't thinmk I was serious about loving McArthur.IMHO he was detestable.

No, Pete. My Irony-Meter was working fine.

Some fascist factions:

link

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More interesting Wisconsin personages, although the father died too soon for these purposes, the La Follettes are worth looking into.

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Cyrus,

Good points. In our game Milwaukee was one of the cities that the Reds rose up. They capture Milwaukee and even march on Madison to try and control the state.
In one scenario the Constitutionalists attack Milwaukee leading to the brutal, grinding battle for "the Brewery."
Thanks for the Info on the Silver Legion. We have an American fascist Party with an all black uniform but now I will have to work on a Silver Legion too!!

Silver Legion Uniform here:

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These are from the era. Be warned that searching for some of this information leads to sites that should require cross verification of material offered. This is for the German American Bund.

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Don't forget the Non Partisan League in North Dakota.

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Quoting from the above article: "The NPL's William "Wild Bill" Langer was elected to the governorship in 1932 and 1936 (the two terms separated by his declaration of North Dakota's secession from the United States in 1934, and a jail term), and served in the U.S. Senate from 1940 until his death in 1959."

Ryan Toews

Ryan,
Nice to see one of these movements made to this time frame. It's a pity that The Granger movement ran out of gas well before this era. A lot of radicalism in the Midwest states.

Two state utopian movements Senator Huey P. Long of Louisiana's "Share the Welath" and California's Upton Sinclair's "EPIC or End Poverty in California" might be more what you're looking for. Long wsrather considered a combination of demagogue and southern reformer, until a doctor assassinated him while the other got humiliated during th state governor's race when Hollywood portrayed Clifornia as being looted by out of state undesirables seeking a free ride at tax payer expense.

Not to open a scar, but it appears that two commenters are talking past one another. Roosevelt's programs were actually rather corporatist ("fascist", if you prefer), being praised by such leaders in Europe during 1933-34, and the First New Deal did use compulsory measures to ensure compliance with government directives (General Hugh Johnson said anyone disobeying the NIRA would get a "punch in the nose").

That said, the potential for a Second Civil War to break out in the US at this time is quite interesting, to say the least; the factional splits would be fascinating to see.

MahanMan,

The point that I was making that it doesn't really matter if what Roosevelt was proposing in the New Deal had elements of fscism that is NOT how businesemen and the wealthy in America saw it at that time. They saw it as extremely Liberal and UnAmerican. That is why the plot to remove Roosevelt started. Their goal was a more fascist oriented government controlled by them. That is when they approached Smedley Bulter to lead the coup but he exposed the plot instead. That is historically how things happened.

The feeling at the time was that Smedley Bulter was not credible. Congress found the"plot" was just a small bunch of New York business types with problems with Roosevelt. Butler had his own political agenda.

The feeling at the time was that Smedley Bulter was not credible. Congress found the"plot" was just a small bunch of New York business types with problems with Roosevelt. Butler had his own political agenda.

The beauty of the "1935: A Very American Civil War",in my opinion, is the ability to tweak small details to make a believable alternative whole. I am only speaking for myself here and don't wish to put words into Paul's mouth.

"Joedog,

Actually it was the opposite. Strong conservatives believed that Roosevelt was moving Socialist or even Communist. Thus the Businessmen's Plot to try and remove him. They saw the New Deal as more of a Socialist/Communist agenda."

Fascism and Totalitarianism are systems of governing people. Socialism and Communism are economic systems.
They are not about the same things, and can both exist in the same place and time; they are not mutually exclusive.

Hitler was a Fascist and a Socialist of sorts (a modified Socialist, believing in state CONTROL of industry, rather than overt state OWNERSHIP of industry). Fascism is an authoritarian society based on an elite headed by a supreme leader or dictator.
FDR was certainly seen by some as a supreme leader, and was not interested in allowing anything as unimportant as the Constitution to get in the way of his gabbing more and more power over the American economy and people.

While we think of Fascists as being dedicated anti-Communists/anti-Socialists, fascism is about control of people, not an economic system.
Strictly speaking, fascism is about authoritarian/totalitarian government control. By the strict definition, Stalin was a Fascist, as well as a Socialist.

Committees investigating things also have their own agenda. If the plot was blown, it is quite likely that they found Butler not credible because it was more convenient to do so than to go after powerful business interests. Once the plot was blown, it was a Humpty Dumpty.

All these distinctions between socialist, fascist, communist, etc. sometimes only matter to the true believers. They are what they are, and the names are often contradictory, and the distinctions meaningless.

Insight as always, John.

Gracias,

Glenn

"Socialism and Communism are economic systems" I am sure that the millions of Russians who died under Stalin would disagree with that. Yes, they are economic systems which need a governmental system to work.

The press and the Democratic Congress (Roosevelt supporters all) did not find Butler credible. Could they have been wrong, beyond a doubt, but they then,as now, loved to beat up the business cabal. So I doubt it.
Now don't let history get in the way of a good game…as Cyrus the Great said you can take a thread and have fun with it. Keep us posted.

Just a few interesting snippets for Nationalist fifth columns in Wisconsin. The actual number of German American Bund members for Wisconsin barely mustered 500. The Ku Klux Klan, on the other hand, had a membership of nearly 50,000 by 1926, but this had all but disappeared by 1928. Historically, there was common cause between the two groups. These are the factual numbers, but what does a 1935 time line reveal?

What events occurred in your home state during this era? This topic has also been mentioned on GWP3.

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Remember a failure of a movie James Stewart made in the 50's with Billy Wilder as the director. The Spirit of Saint Louis. A much too old Stewart tried to play decades younger in an attempt to rehabilitate Lucky Lindy. An America firster and outspoken anti-semite, the Flyen' Fool's reputation suffered when he was rejected by the AAF (FDR who never forgot an enemy sent the message down) and then of course was slappped firmly down by the reality of Dachau where the "Jewish problem," that he always worked into his Firster speeches, was solved.

The American public had a longer memory in those bygone days. Exiled to Hawaii, Goering's good buddy, published a ghost written book (Read _We_ and then _The SSpirit of Saint Louis_, Two differnent Authors) to try to recover some of the old popularity. When that didn't work. Stewart went to work on the problem, being America's favorite Right Wing actor, bleached his hair blond, and got Wilder to direct the box office bomb. Nor did _Reader's Digest_ Articles with mythic tales of the Lone Eagle shooting down "Japs" while working on the P-38 Lightning's control problems out in the Pacific seem to make much difference either.

No literary types here? Someone should have mentioned Sinclair's _It Can Happen Here_ where the Facists are the M and M which was turned into the Mickey Mice, the author knowing that Disney (Old Uncle Walt) was a crypto-facist (stole that from Vidal at the 1968 Democratic Convention). Catch-22 turns that into Milo Minderbinder who of course is the creator of M&M enterprises, crypto-facism at its best.

As for the Bonus Marchers they could have sat out on the mud-flats till hell froze over as far as Hoover and Congress were concerned, but then the intelligence came in that white and African American Soldiers were camped with their families together, MIXING RACES and SHARING FOOD. Well Dugout Dough and his lap dog Ike all decked out for campaigning in the Phillipines or Central America led the French Tanks and Cavalry to drive what had been revealed as part of the Communists Conspiracy away so that the government of, by, and for the people should not perish from the earth. That congress was hustled out at the next electiuon. The Chief Execdutive recieved the boot two years after that.

An Assacination attempt before the March inaguration missed FDR in Miami but killed the mayor who was sitting next to him.

People wanted FDR to ask Congress for "Extrodinary Powers" and he uses that as a threat in his inaguration speech. Instead the Congress started passing legislation in Record time and FDR just had to sign it. He could not stuff the court, he had to give the South the TVA in order to pass other New Deal legislation. In other words business as usual.

The plot Butler revealed was real, just addle headed.

The Klu Klux Krazies elected their own Governor and Legistature in Indiana in 1924. My one set of Grandparents were members. In Indiana they rode a wave of anti Catholic aznd Jewish immigation to the State House. One of those Grandparents was Welsh (Coal Mining) the other was a protestant convert who came from Posen. I suppose the white sheet hid all the tell tale signs of fake white protestantism. The Swedish grandparents were Democrats.

I just heard about a Very British Civil War Today. I find that and the wish for an American Civil War very strange. Civil Wars always bring out the firing squads and leave grudges for ages. There has already been many Very British Civil Wars. You don't get enough from refighting the real ones?

We haven't had a British Civil War. Lots of English ones with the Jocks poking their noses in, but not a proper bring all your toys British one.

A good opportunity for the British Empire to regain their hold on the Benighted States! Invade through Canada whilst supporting 5th. Columnists.

Fascinating thread about US history, thanks. :-)

fascism is about control of people, not an economic system.

Yes, but fascism was the political system that big business choose to control people and maintain their economical system, when they feared that socialism/communism could overthrow them. Otherwise fascism would not have enough support to get power.

A good opportunity for the British Empire to regain their hold on the Benighted States! Invade through Canada whilst supporting 5th. Columnists.

link

And the US plan was apparently updated in 1934-35, perfect for this timeline.

"A good opportunity for the British Empire to regain their hold on the Benighted States! Invade through Canada whilst supporting 5th. Columnists."

As if the Brits wanted the US. Why does this old chestnut keep coming up? Where does this idea that the Brits wanted to regain the US come from?