"Epic: Armageddon minis -- too high to fly? [Warning: rant]" Topic

I meant the different armour ratings and stuff put into E40K, to make it more "realistic" and have a lot more variation within the armoured units, Andrew. That's the part that made E40K "tank heavy" and left out the fun and exciting combined-arms strategies that were more in tone with the 40k Universe}, that is: INFANTRY all around, heavy machines dispatching the buggers with heavy barrages, and ORKS having a field day everywhere, not matter if they were loosing or not.

Still, maybe our playing styles and preferences are the things that set us apart on this one, it seems.

All good points Primarch and I agree with a lot of them. I'm still not quite sure why EpicA is being released. Maybe to just cover up the abortion that was Epic40k (imo, and yes I actually like EpicA).

From an old timer who started with SM:AT era I'm actually glad EpicA has been made. There were no SM:TL players in my area anymore and most were so jaded after Epic40k they just had no interest at all. EpicA has actually created a bit of a buzz with people I know and we're all busy painting our armies up for the games release because we liked the test rules.

At the end of the day I seriously doubt EpicA is being pitched at new gamers. The fact it's a Fanatic release is putting pay to that.

I was actually surprised at the price of the Chimeras boxed set. 7 Chimeras for 12 quid. That's actually cheaper than I was expecting. I was sure we'd end up paying 6 quid for 3 models.

Personally I know I'm going to be buying a ruleset I like and having some fun with it this year.

Heres an idea.

Grab some of the excellent resin Epic vehicles from Forge World, which are cheaper, get some generic infantry from say Scotia Grendel and make up a nice Imperial guard Armour division.

Primarch, just one comment:

Who cares SM is no longer a core game?

It was a GREAT, FUN, game... It had a following, it was well accepted. There were lots of minis and they kept getting better without the need of a "revision".

But they had to "reformat" it, to keep in tone with the "storyline" and the rest of their policies of "new rules set every 3 years."

You ask me?

Your system is far better thought out and way more satisfying. I have all the minis I need and when I find plastics, I buy more.

Jervis and GW can keep their justifications and miniatures.

When I find more E40K minis on the dog bins, I'll buy them. Knowing I won't find any EpicA, I don't worry about it.

My only disappointment is that it took alot of time to end up with a game that resembles E40K too much, improves very little, and has a meager 3 official armies to play with.
But, of course, that's not bad as there are trial army lists for the rest of th existing lines (except one, we all know). These are LEGAL, this is support.

Yeah, right.

I don't think the game will live to see Summer 2005.

Hi!

Javier B aka DoktorZinieztro, valid point. I think at this point no really cares if it was a core game long ago, since for newbies that is a moot issue and for us older hands, we have long adapted to being "the red-headed step child" of GW games.

But, at least to me, its galling that a game once so played and supported is now virtually cast aside. So the "core game" issue is admittedly a nostalgia issue that has less impact as the years go by.

You also mention how similar Epic A and Epic 40k look alike. No doubt fans of the new system will hotly and vehemently disagree saying its nothing like it and plays totally different. Perhaps manily becuase no one wants to be associated with the failed game.

But truth is, I agree with you wholeheartedly on your point. Its based on epic 40k and thus its "improvements" are a matter of hihgly debatable opinions.

Also just releasing it with 3 armies isn't what you call an "all-inclusive" philosophy. Chaos players who were burnt waiting for stuff under epic 40k will most certainly be wary for a 2005 or 2006 release.

I agree, that in all likelihood the game will not undure to summer 2005. IMO, it wont make the end of this year.

However, I'd gladly eat humble pie if my predicition is wrong and I get a chance for some Necron models........

Primarch

Hi!

Javier B aka DoktorZinieztro and many others,thanks for the kind words about Heresy. Although Heresy was born out of the desire to make something "I" enjoyed. I'm glad other people find it worthy or notice and play. My humble thanks.

I have long since gone my own way with 6mm rules. I'd rather be creative than worry (although it is fun to gripe about it!) about what GW does or doesn't do with epic. I like my GW SM era minis, so why not enjoy them with some other rules home made or not?

I beleive every gamer has that one great gaming idea lurking inside him. All he needs is to sit done and give it life. If you got a couple of friends that share your vision and have fun with it, what could be better?

Whatever anyone's choice, as long as you have fun, thats the only true measure of a games success.

Primarch

if all else fails, at least we'll get shiny new models for NetEpic.

Well, sales 400% of expected (expected being warmaster), rules free and you lot have bloody short memories.

Back when I started playing Epic in the days of Adeptus Titanicus (the late 80's now? Gods, surely not) 2 basilisks with a random mini model (space marine thudd gun, mole mortat, infantry man etc) cost £2.99. Thats a little under £1.50 each. The game has never been cheap. Now the models are £1.67 from forgeworld or £2.22 from mail order.

To be sure big tanks have gone up - metal land raiders were originally a little under £1.50 as well and superheavies 'only' £3. Plastic infantry has gone from 300 for £10 to 160 for £12.

The point is the game was always pricy - at least now the rules are free, rather good and at teh WPS tourney 28 players turned up with mostly brand new armies. People like the game and it is swift becoming one of fanatics best sellers. Perhaps the forgeworld experience (delays of up to a month on Epic orders) will convince them to lower their prices, but with current sales I'm not so sure.

The game was always pricy, but never this pricy. $40 for the same Ork Gargant that cost $15 just four years ago? $7.50 for a single Land Raider? No intro boxed set filled with great plastics?

But I do have to admit that I've been impressed with the support the new IG releases have gotten. The prices prices are oddly out of whack with the Marine prices; two Valkyrie dropships for $10 is a great deal, while the Marines are still dealing with those $7.50 Land Raiders. The game is far too expensive for my tastes even still (and I also started playing it in the Space Marine/Titanicus era), but at least I see some hope of it surviving.

Try Dirtside II, from GZG, very cool rule set. They also sell affordable minis for your sci-fi mega battles.

Or you could try Prophecy of War. Large scale battle rules for free here:

link

Epic seems to have gotten out of the starting gate decently. I actually sorta like the new rules. Although, I admit that Heresy simply looks awesome! I just haven't printed up all the new army lists yet.

Thanks,

John

Actually I thought the "Company' infantry plastics were pretty decently priced. For $22 I got 200 6mm well sculpted plastic infantry all of which have a nice base with no flash so I can use them singley for other rulesets of desired.

As I was just starting work on a 6mm skirmish rules set Epic came out at just the right time 8)

Yopu beat me to it Probert. Dirtside II is a bargian by compairison 2.50 GBP or $4.60 for a pack of 2 to 4 vehicles. Sure there aren't any oversized walkers which would in reality stand out like a soar thumb and have a big bulls eye on them, but there are the mini mechs.

DS2, while arguably a nice system, is NOT for megabattles.

While it uses similar scale miniatures, the focus of the game is completely different - it's meant for smaller forces.

If you like the DS2 vehicles, just play Epic:A with them. You don't have to play DS2 with them nor do you need them for DS2 - the book doesn't even have stats for any of the "official" miniatures!

E.g. Any MBT - count as Leman Russ, any IFV - count as Chimera, any SPA - count as Basilisk. Ta-daa, you're ready to roll!

pretty much every 'summer' game released by GW has failed, only blood bowl and necromunda succeded in staying in the background. BFG was successful in the states but the europeans didn't get into it (it was the opposite for Mordinhem)

GW are the monopoly in the wargames world, the only reason they're still around is the expansion and continuing support of their core games and the fact they 'won' the rights to produce the LOTR minis.

Believe you me, they will be slipping down over the next couple of years, I have been told this a number of times by industry and other 'prominant' people. The number of companies offering similar, or indeed better game systems is rising, as are the quality of sculpts. Look at Warmachine, Void and Celtos to name a few for 28mm, GZG for 6mm starfleets. The list is growing and sooner rather than later GW is gonna have to scale back BIG time to cover cost cutting that will be needed when the market becomes more competative.

basic business sense.

This of course will come sooner when companies start expanding more and producing a similar amount of minis per annum that GW does.

@Javelin ... you made me laugh dude! keep it up.

back on topic, I wish I could've got into Epic when it came out, I nearly did. (a mate of mine had 60,000 points of Eldar :-/ )

I will really believe that in the UK when I see it. Here GW virtually is the industry for it's type of games, despite how 'bad' some are.

"That is absolutely, positively the worst business and marketing strategy ever espoused since... well, I can't even think of anything worse. To market a product with the expectation of little to no growth is ludicrous"

GW must have discovered some hidden merit to Steve Jackson's OGRE marketing strategy.

Draknoir2,

"GW must have discovered some hidden merit to Steve Jackson's OGRE marketing strategy."

Thanks for the good chuckle!

Speaking of E-A, I just played a game yesterday and enjoyed it. I played Nids and Chuck played SMs.

Expect an AAR here soon:

link

Shalom,

Maksim-Smelchak.

Regarding support of the game, I must admit I threw a fit when I saw the release schedule for E:A (Tyranids in 2008?!?), but at least E:A HAS a release schedule. Look at other fanatic games - where's the release schedule for Necromunda? Warmaster? Blood Bowl? Yet all these have thrived under Fanatic. My point is that E:A has (on paper, granted) a scheduled long-time support which other fanatic games are lacking, which should be seen as a good thing. Is it as good as having E:A as a core game with new releases each month? No, but it is better than having no releases at all. Note also that freely downloadable playtest armylists are available from the fanatic website for races not yet "supported".

The pricing is of course ludicrous compared to what we paid back in the days. Will it kill E:A? I don't think so. In fact, I'd say that this release of Epic has good potential to bring new blood into the game, for two reasons:

First is that the rulebook and all army lists are freely downloadable from the web, meaning that the initial outlay for a new player is zero. Anyone remotely curious of E:A can get all the material they need to make the decision of wether or not to try it out for free. One would guess that a lot more players will be reading the rules and thus thinking about starting than with other new games.

Second, you're seeing the pricing of the minis from the wrong angle. Many here play other games, we know what a GHQ tank costs and we compare this knowledge to the price of the new Epic miniatures, rightfully coming to the conclusion that the price is very high. However, the majority of prospective E:A players haven't even heard of GZG, GHQ, H&R, Skytrex et. al. These players see the cost as £9 (4 SM Vindicators as an example) PER UNIT. Compared to a 40K or fantasy unit this is peanuts. Also, remember that E:A is designed for smaller battles than the huge slugfests of earlier versions (my impression, nota bene).

My guess is that Epic will be around for a long time to come. Primarily because the purpose of Fanatic isn't to produce cash cow games like WHB or 40K, but to keep players in the GW fold. As long as the game net at +/- 0 it will continue to be supported, as it is no longer a core game. Since GW can just keep digging up old moulds for every scheduled release up until Necrons (2007?) I'd say that's not a very hard goal to reach.

Cheers/Fredrik

Hi. I was under the impression that EA battles were larger the E40k and approaching the size of those from Space Marine. At least that's what I believed.

Thanks,

John

[I was under the impression that EA battles were larger the E40k and approaching the size of those from Space Marine]

The tournament rules recommend battles from 2000 points per size. A Land Raider detachment (4 land raiders, £15) costs 400 points, a vindicator detachment (4 machines, £9) costs 300 points. A space marine tactical infantry detachment (6 infantry stands plus 3 transports, £12 for the inf; £10 for rhinos) costs 300. So, as you can see from the lists, those 2000 points really don't buy you a whole lot of miniatures.

Remember, the target audience for new GW releases think in terms of cost of an *army*, not the price of individual miniatures. In this case, you'd get a (small) 1000 pt army for £44, which is in line with the core games (£15 for a WFB regiment box, for example), except that you won't need to shell out £25 for a rule book.

Hi!

I would agree with fredrik that the later versions of epic are tailor for smaller conflicts with less figures.

Imagine what it would cost to make an old IG tactical company of 32 stands and one vehicle? Units nowadays are smaller in the face of high cost of blisters.

As a matter of curiosity I have been matching equal points of Space Marine versus the current version and the amount of miniatures for a given point total is quite large for space marine. I feel the massed feel of epic has been lowered since the release of epic 40k.

Of course given price and availability this change is unavoidable.

Will epic be around 1, 2, 3 or more years from now is anyones guess. As I have mentioned before the real test of success will be if anyoner still cares about epic after 40k 4th edition or any other flavor of the month game appears and takes attention away from epic. My threshold is about one year. If around spring 2005 epic has sustained the level of interest it has now then it may stay alive. Until then most commentary on this is speculation.

As for attracting new gamers, perhaps. But the real measure of success is how many long term gamers can be recruited. Just attracting new gamers is not enough if they only play while the fad lasts and then move on to another game.

Again time will tell.

Primarch

Epic's mased combat has been a bit funny over the years. The original game was too slow/complex to use big armies, the 2nd ed was easy enough to do but the VP system broke after a certain value, 3rd ed required a bit of book-keeping but other than that could be scaled up a fair bit (working on a detachment not unit basis) and now the new addition which if anything is in between 1st and 2nd ed in scale.

Hi!

Why did the VP system break down after a certain value?

I have played games up to 40,000 points per side and found the VP to be extremely robust at any value and incredibly suited for very large games. Much more so than other versions IMO. :)

Primarch

Points for Tournament armies is 2700 not 2000.

Stuff the GW prices for Epic, I whant a army closer to what I have in terms of 28mm 40K and Victorian Sc-Fi so I am after 6mm British WW1 tanks and Bi-planes etc to fight along Zulu war british

Primarch wrote:

[As for attracting new gamers, perhaps. But the real measure of success is how many long term gamers can be recruited. Just attracting new gamers is not enough if they only play while the fad lasts and then move on to another game.]

They way I see it, this is the advantage of the Fanatic setup. Previously, GW would release a game, support it for a few months and then let it die (exhibit A: Epic in its various incarnations; B: Man O' War; C: Mighty Empires; D: Gorkamorka) because it was unable to continue supporting the game as strongly as they did when it was released. The consequence was that many players jumped on the bandwagon (due to high exposure in WD and in stores) only to opt out when support dropped (ie, "the fad" ended). With the Fanatic rereleases, apart from some initial WD coverage and the occational article, support for the games stay at a more constant (albeit lower) level, hopefully encouraging players to stay with the game.

I would definately like to see the game go core again, but as we've seen with every single game GW has released it is impossible for them to have more than one core game for each of their two settings. Given that, I think what we have now with Epic is as good as it's realistically going to get. The best case scenario would be an upshoot in the Epic player base resulting in other manufacturers producing 6mm scifi miniatures and games, much as what has happened with Warmaster and the 10mm scale.

Cheers/Fredrik

One word "Bartertown". Yep you can get great deals on Bartertown for Epic. I now try not to buy new, instead I just trade on Bartertown.

The initial rant at the beginning of this thread amused me.

Yes the new metal miniatures are pricey compared to other 6mm sci-fi but so is the warhammer line against other fantasy maufacturers. The plain fact is that people will pay these prices, maybe not in droves but enough to keep things running.

The fact remains that its a very good rules set and it is managing to win over new players as well as pick up folks like myself who played previous versions.

10 dollars a land raider; anyone I play with will be allowed to use scrtatchbuilt/kitbashed or we'll use the stand in rule with GZG miniatures. I am luckey enough to have collected my armies along time ago.

Hi!

[They way I see it, this is the advantage of the Fanatic setup. Previously, GW would release a game, support it for a few months and then let it die (exhibit A: Epic in its various incarnations; B: Man O' War; C: Mighty Empires; D: Gorkamorka) because it was unable to continue supporting the game as strongly as they did when it was released. The consequence was that many players jumped on the bandwagon (due to high exposure in WD and in stores) only to opt out when support dropped (ie, "the fad" ended). With the Fanatic rereleases, apart from some initial WD coverage and the occational article, support for the games stay at a more constant (albeit lower) level, hopefully encouraging players to stay with the game.]

Incorrect Fredrik. Epic space Marine second edition was a CORE game. Continously supported with releases and miniatures. It lasted 5 years with strong continous support. This was NOT a "fad" as later versions of epic became. Second edition was and still is the game system to beat in popularity, support and sheer volume of releases. All other versions have a long way to go before they can match it.

So my initial premise stands. Fanatic games, by their nature are lightly supported games without the main thrust of the GW advertisement machine and distribution support. Thus their penetration is far below core game level and thus vulnerable to "get lost" in the excitment generated by newer core GW games.

Only time and sales will determine if epic will have any longevity. Jervis has mentioned that thier are some "minimums" sales expectations for the lines viability. They are fortunately being met, but as I mentioned its not good sales now that matters. Good sales a year from now when its not "the hot thing" is more significant.

MaccWar, it is also "fact" that their are MANY people who still play the older rulesets, including NetEpic. We have a mailing list with over 340 people as a testament to that. Many of us rather support epic independent of GW or fanatic since we know the game we play will be around regardless of sales... :)

Business is business. While fanatic is a much smaller scale than mainstream GW games there are still profit expectations. IF they are met we will get more new minis. But if they are not met, it wont be support.

Regardless of version we may all play I hope Fanatic and the current player base is indeed sufficient to meet those expectations.

After all we all like new minis. ;)

Primarch

" MaccWar, it is also "fact" that their are MANY people who still play the older rulesets, including NetEpic. We have a mailing list with over 340 people as a testament to that. Many of us rather support epic independent of GW or fanatic since we know the game we play will be around regardless of sales... :)"

And I'm one of them. For several years I played NE and used it to indroduce people into the game. Without NetEpic I doubt there would be such a large fan base for Epic Armageddon at this point.

I've switched over to EA from NE because I like the new system. At the moment I am unlikely to go back to NE because its easier to get opponents (and attend tournaments) with the new system due to the support it is getting.

If specialist games were ever to drop EA then I would be first in the line to try and start up NEA.

Keep up the good work Primarch.

Primarch wrote:

[Incorrect Fredrik. Epic space Marine second edition was a CORE game. Continously supported with releases and miniatures. It lasted 5 years with strong continous support.]

This is true, but back then GW didn't really have the strong distinction between Core and Auxillary (or whatever the term) games. If a game did sufficiently well in terms of sales it remained supported, a strength in the case of E:SM, but a liability in the case of later editions (and a host of other games).

The point I'm trying to make is that if E:A had been released as a core game today, it would have had to compete on equal terms with 40K/WFB. As a core game it would have been neccessary for GW (and "elite" partners) to stock the full range in each of their stores, stores would have had to arrange dedicated E:A gaming events, painting classes, and all the other activities required for "core" games. While sales of (and thus GW support for) the game would have been that much higher in such a scenario, we can imagine the result of the imminent 40K rerelease - a host of Epic players moving back to 40K, dropping sales and in the end a sad ending for E:A as yet another failed core game since the running cost of a core game (for GW in terms of support, shelf space and activities) is much greater than that of Fanatic games.

The crux (says I) is that GW can't realistically support more than one core game for each world setting. 40K and WFB are the cash cows of the GW empire. They are both games with a large and fairly stable player base, which make support for these games GW's number one strategic priority. Now, it is my belief that a larger Epic player base could only be created by eroding the 40K player base, meaning that an increase in Epic sales in a core game scenario could only be created by diminishing 40K sales. The result would be that the GW marketing machine put a greater effort into promoting 40K, and thus again eroding the Epic player base in turn.

The problem in other words is partly GW corporate strategy (don't "rock the boat" for core games) and partly the GW monoculture (there are very few non-GW gamers to recruit for a new game, meaning that a player base increase for one GW game means a decrease for another GW game).

Primarch also wrote:

[Fanatic games, by their nature are lightly supported games without the main thrust of the GW advertisement machine and distribution support. Thus their penetration is far below core game level and thus vulnerable to "get lost" in the excitment generated by newer core GW games.]

Very true, and a sad result of the two points I raised above. However, I think the danger of E:A "getting lost" is greater if it had been released as a core game. It's not an optimal solution (for us Epic players) but, again, it's probably the best solution given the circumstances.

Cheers/Fredrik

Hi!

Ah, Understand. I agree that epic A were it released as a core game would indeed be marginalized by the larger core games. It is also true that GW follows a doctrine of "not rocking the boat" when it refers to its core games.

The truth is that epic will never be a core game again. The resources and player base are just not there anymore. I have warmed up to the idea that perhaps it is indeed better Fanatic takes care of epic. While resources, distribution and wide appeal are limited, its better to have a steady, albeit, slow release schedule than none at all.

As mentioned before, it is critical that the core base of players be large enough to meet the minimum expectations. I think Fanatic has wisely kept these expectations low and thus they are easier to fulfill. Of course the downside is that smaller production runs mean higher cost per unit of epic miniatures, but that will have to be a reality epic players will have to deal with. The second hand market is a relief to this, but it is also detrimental to meet the expectation minimum since those will not be buying the new models. Perhaps the influx of newer players can balance this. Time will tell.

Primarch

guh ive got a huge eldar vehicle fleet from the last edition...time to sell those