"Epic: Armageddon minis -- too high to fly? [Warning: rant]" Topic

Wait -- before anyone breaks out the flamethrowers and burns me to a crisp, tells me to sit down and stop whining, or just tips their head back and screams WAAAGH!!!, let me say one thing: I've loved Warhammer 40,000 since I first played it in 1987, and it is because I love it so much that I get so infuriated by the genetic-defectives running GW today.

Now, I just have to rant about the crack addicts doing up the minis for this new game ( Epic:Armageddon, the heir to Space Marine and Epic 40K ) . Yes, this is a rant, so if anything I say seems out of synch with your fragile sensitivities, please forgive me in advance. And go check out the Terrain forum; it isn't often that you see a flaming diatribe about Styrofoam hill pieces.

Longing for the epic battles of the Horus Heresy that I fought using Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus, pining for the excellent plastics that embodied Epic 40,000 ( may it rest in peace ) , and tempted by the terrific rules available at the EPICenter ( specifically the Heresy rules by Peter Ramos and Kenneth Peters ) , I have finally given up hope of ever seeing a rebirth of one of my favorite past hobbies. Why? Well, why else do we usually rant about GW? Money.

The first blisters of E:A minis are available on the GW-UK site now, and they are – how do I say this? – most definitely priced to fail. Based on the price of the little minis, they must be made of chiseled rubies, because they are obscenely expensive. Take a look:

link

4 Epic Land Raiders are priced at £12.00GBP. For those of us in the US, that's $22.11 USD. For four Land Raiders. Yes, that works out to $5.50 USD a Land Raider.

By comparison, GHQ Models sells finely-detailed white metal Merkava tanks at five for $8.95 USD ( ghqmodels.com/store/is6.html ) -- that's £4.85GBP for five vehicles for our British cousins. A simple comparison of the two shows a price difference of $1.79 USD per Merkava to $5.50 USD per land Raider. And the Merkava is as finely ( or even more finely ) detailed as the Land Raider.

Could Fanatic Games ( or Specialist Games, or Bonehead Games, or No-Bloody-Business-Acumen Games ) possibly pick a worse business strategy, or a better way to ensure that E:A will be stillborn right out of the chute? Don't answer – it's a rhetorical question. Or wait – maybe it's not. Since some of the most popular armies in 40K today – Tau, Chaos – won't be released for four or five years, perhaps they decided to come up with a backup plan to ensure the failure of this game.

For all its faults ( and yes, there were many ) , the previous edition of Epic at least made it easy for someone new to the hobby to take it home, invite over a friend, and proceed to darken the skies with Ork ashes and the landscape with Imperial blood. It included an excellent selection of vehicles – if I remember right, it had something like eight Land Raiders, twelve Rhinos, twelve Whirlwinds, and dozens of stands of infantry, just on the Imperial side, with a likewise impressive collection of Orks to go against them. Add in the rules, templates, counters, etc., and the boxed set was a great deal for only $69.95 USD. Fielding a force of just the Imperial vehicles I just mentioned using the new minis will cost no less than $147.40 USD ( £80GBP GBP ) . Now add in the rules, opposing forces, infantry, dice, templates… Anyone feel like sinking five or six hundred shekels into a game that GW might abandon at any moment? Or that won't have your favorite army available until Haley Joel Osmont is old enough to drink?

I'm so sad. Crushed. Disheartened. I *want* this game to be great, truly I do. I want to see dozens of people playing it down at my FLGS, lots of new kids getting excited about it like I did when I was fifteen years old and new to the hobby. But such will never happen, because lobotomy patients like Jervis "What the Heck is a Balance Sheet?" Johnson and whoever else is in charge of Fanatic/Specialist Games has no concept of the basic economic principles of economies of scale, volume sales, and decreasing marginal costs.

This game will fail, far worse than Epic 40K, and for the simple reason is that too many people will refuse to buy into it. I was told on the official E:A forums that this is OK, because most of the people who will be playing it are "bearded gits" who still have all their Space Marine and Epic 40K minis packed away. And… GW is okay with this? That is absolutely, positively the worst business and marketing strategy ever espoused since… well, I can't even think of anything worse. To market a product with the expectation of little to no growth is ludicrous, and I doubt that it's truly what they have in mind in Nottingham.

Any freshman economics student could point to the inevitable failure of E:A based solely on its price position. Not to mention that the rules ( released as just a rulebook ) run $45 USD or so, and there is no introductory boxed set for newbies to the hobby. And let's face it – newbies spell growth, not bearded gits. Anyone want to guess what will happen when the new game fails to capture any significant market share whatsoever? That's right – even Fanatic/Specialist will pull the plug on it, because even fanatics can't afford to lose money forever.

My solution – return to the plastics that were in use for Epic 40K, and re-introduce the game with a boxed starter set. Yes, I hear the cries of those of you who argue that Fanatic can't afford plastic because a single injection mold costs tens of thousands of dollars. Before I point out the theory of economics of scale, let me ask one question:

Do you believe that GW would spend tens of thousand of pounds on the Epic 40K injection molds… and then just throw them away? Where the heck are they? Why can't they be put into use again?

No one on any of the official forums ever dares to tackle this question. Perhaps the molds are in a shoebox under Jervis's bed ( or on his altar to Slaanesh ) , or perhaps GW is guilty of a massive hiccup of corporate incompetence. Either way, those molds went somewhere. If they could be found, I bet they could be used, at least as masters for new injection molds.

Well, I've just about exhausted myself. I just wish that someone over there would make this game great again, instead of sticking their heads in the sand and pretending that everything will be okay just because Jervis the Great Unclean One told them it would be ( typical staffer response to these same questions on the official forums: "Shut up and buy minis." But not in so few words ) . As a fan and gamer, I'd support this game… if it were being handled competently.

Okay, Fanboyz, go ahead and flame on. You know you want to.

All I can say is, "Wow."

Get a grip man...seek some therapy. To the devil with GW. Play historicals. Much better than the GW c&*p.

Cheers,

John

Yeah, I shouldn't post threads on two hours' sleep. Someone hit me with a shovel and put me to bed, please!

Gotta agree with Roosterman. Quite an impressive rant. *golf clap* Unfortunately, all the ranting in the world won't make GW change its ways, so I hope the rant at least made you feel better. Best of luck to you in finding a game that doesn't ask you to bend over when you enter the store. Perhaps historicals, as Condottiere suggested?

Can I get a Halleluiah, brothers and sisters?

Man, I can just smell the fire and brimstone leaking from Brother Javelin! I, too, have felt the gaze of Sa-tan in the aisles containin' the products of the Workshop!

I was there, with the cruisers of the Tau in mah hayands, and I could feel the talons of gah-reeeeed grippin' me as ah read the sticker containin' the price. Thirty dollars!

(Pauses to let the congregation gasp.)

Thirty dollars, it read -- twice the price of previous metal cruisers, and half the point cost! Brothers and sisters, I saw there the haaaaaaaaand of the devil, reachin' for mah wallet, his silky voice tellin' me that the fleet was *worth* the four times ah was gonna pay for it.

But ah was strong. I put that cruiser down, and walked right out of that aisle! And I took that money I was gonna spend on Tau cruisers, and bought a mix of miniatures from Reaper, including this really cool wood golem that looks like a tiki and has an owl living in his back ...

Yeah, I feel better, PW. And what you say is true -- they won't ever change. But I still grieve for my lost Space Marine love.

Not to mention -- dare I say it? -- Space Hulk.

Amen.

As an old fan of Space Marine Epic Battles (2nd edition of course), I've got to back you up on that rant. Those prices are simply outrageous!

5.50 per tank? Someone's on drugs and having a bad trip to think that game is going to succeed with that pricing structure.

Seriously -- I fear the day that they decide that Warmaster doesn't cost enough. I've got enough figs to play small games, but would like to expand each of my five(!) armies up to 2,000 points eventually.

And Space Hulk isn't the only one gone -- Warhammer Quest is another one that folks won't have the joy to play.

Im with ya the whole way Javelin.
To the stakes with GW! Burn them all!
I grief the loss of EPIC, Space hulk and the cheap prices that all are long lost by now.

But they do produce some really nice minis tho...

I've gotta say I felt the urge to buy the Tau ships, but as soon as I sawa what they looked like and the $30 price tag I put it back. At that point if a store owner is putting it back you know there is something wrong with the product. Then I remembered that stack of B5 Earthforce ships I have and my friend Agent1 at AOG. I now have a nice size Tau/Earthforce fleet. Just gotta get it painted now...sigh

I have to say that I agree the new Epic game can't possibly go anywhere with pricing like that. Has anyone noticed that ALL fanatic stuff is stupid expensive? I guess that's because they are a smaller shop than the parent company with less overhead...wait...that would mean lower prices...hmmm...

Javelin, never fear, you'll always be able to find the old Epic stuff for cheap on ebay and bartertown....in fact, I have some Land raiders, whirlwinds, rhinos, infantry, mega gargants, and battlewagons just waiting to be painted up and sold!

You could just play Epic with GHQ miniatures.

I have major trauma ahead of me when GW comes out with LotR at 10mm scale. New scale, new game rules, whatever, I will buy LotR at 10mm scale if the models are sculpted well.

If you want to drink champange you have to pay the price.

Pssst hey...psst wanna buy some Crack? its cheaper than that Game stuff you got there.

course, the land raider's at least twice, if not three times, sthe size of the Merkava. (Well, I've sat the Epic 40,000 plastic Land Raider next to a GHQ Challenger, the sizes shouldn't be too different)

My point is that the miniatures are merely representations. You could use Heavy Gear or Battletech miniatures...what difference does it really make?

If it absolutely has to be a Land Raider you can get the old metals or the old plastics - or the even older plastics - for a reasonable price. It doesn't make too much sense to hold it against GW because they want to charge 5.50 or whatever for a new metal Land Raider.

It's like buying a Ferrari. You can get from Washington to Savannah just as quickly in a Neon (obeying the laws that is) ;-)

javelin, I am a big fan of Epic myself and have played it in its many incarnations. I am one of those 'old gits' with plenty of miniatures, so the price of the new figs doesn't concern me too much, although I think the metal vehicles were always fairly expensive. I imagine that Epic in general has marginal appeal and low profits compared to GW's core games. In other words, it probably isn't profitable for GW to spend the money trying to attract new players with boxsets etc. I am actually amazed (and thankful) that a new version of the rules is even being released. A relaunch of the miniatures line will at least make some of the figs easier to come by I hope! If GW has done anything right with Epic this time, it is the huge level of fan collaboration and playtesting that has gone into the rules, not to mention the fact that the final version of the rulebook and army lists were available for free download. This has to be an unprecedented GW first! Say what you want about Jervis, but based on his many posts on the Epic forums, the relaunch of Epic was clearly a labour of love done for the fans. High prices? Well that's just par for the course when you play GW games!

They need to have standup cardboard counters like Battletech. Or those little boxes like the Renegade Legions games. That was you can play the game in "epic" sized battles without spending a fortune.

You've got a great point, Keirof. M113's make decent Rhinos, M109 Paladins can stand in for Basilisks... I'm thinking that I can play Heresy just fine without ever touching a GW mini.

But that's what they don't get, up there in Nottingham. If no one buys the products, the game will fold anyway and all their setup costs will be for naught. On the other hand, they could do cheaper plastics, sell a boatload (quite literally for us in the US) and the game might have a fighting chance. It feels like this is such a common sense issue, but that they just can' see it. *Sigh*

Guys, First off, have you priced Battletech minis? One mech or two tanks for $8-$10. I dont know if Iron Wind is going under but they seem to sell a fair amount of lead at my local store. You cant get them to carry Brigade which are considerably cheaper.

Secondly, A Warhammer 40K tank costs $40.00. GW seems to be doing alright selling those.

Finally, I doubt that Epic Armageddon will make it on volume. How many gamers out there want to play 6mm? Yes, 6mm. I find most of you taking jabs at anything less than 15mm.

Al

Except with Battletech, you're not dealing with vast armies. Most players collect 6-10 miniatures and they're done being fully capable of playing many satisfying games easily. Spending the same amount will not give you enough to play a satisfying epic game.

When we played, we played truly epic games. Several Titans, 30-40 tanks of various types, 10-20 bikes, 30-60 stands of troops, 10-20 artillery and so on. Even going crazy on buying my vast army, I don't think I spent more than $500. A similar force under these prices would cost well over $2000.

RE:"4 Epic Land Raiders are priced at £12.00. For those of us in the US, that's $22.11. For four Land Raiders. Yes, that works out to $5.50 a Land Raider."
gosh, the US dollar is taking a pounding!

In response to the Btech comment, the difference is that 8 minis will get you a large Btech game (at least as large as the system can easily handle I've found), while 64$-80$ of this Epic: A stuff will likely not even be a starting army. Heck, it's less then 16 of those Land Raiders.

Also, the 40k Tank may cost 8 times as much, but it's much more then 8 times larger and more impressive. Not too say that the cost should scale down directly, but 40$ for a model quality kit is of course to appeal more then 8 6mm minis.

And as for the last point, you're probably right, but it looks like GW isn't even going to give it the chance to succeed. It might not sell much anyway, but it almost defintly will not with that pricing structure.

-Will

I have a bunch of Epic stuff (from Space Marine on) and am still going for bargains on eBay. I keep up with EpiCentre/NetEpic and will play as I please with whatever I can afford. Any support is better than no support.

WMINSING and TheHobb. Point well taken on the need for lots more miniatures. I dont play epic though I have several 6mm armies based on those figures with a mix of Battletech and others. We play a variant of Dirtside II using about 20 vehicles per side and 10-15 infantry stands which seems to have blinded my perspective.

I am not complaining about the cost of the 40K landraider. Nice model and it is comparatively priced to other plastic kits but does not the same arguement you give to the need for many vehicles in epic apply in 40K? I know the games use smaller numbers of miniatures but, having only one vehicle seems too little in my estimation (again, I dont play 40K).

As to other comments on this thread, yeah, GW is expensive. Who buys that Tau fleet?

Al

6mm Historicals. Baccus, Adler, Irregular, Heroics & Ross, GZG, C in C, GHQ and probably more I'm forgetting all with a plethora of rules available.

I was a Space Marine nut. I have too much stuff and I have it almost all painted but the new pricing scheme they have won't have me buying more. I could always use another battle company but....Anyway I support the Net Epic version and occasionally win an eBay auction. I have thought about using the GHQ stuff for Imperial Guard though. Space Hulk was another game they dropped off. Oh well, I hope this one makes it.

Just came home from getting a root canal...I'm not sure which is more painful the price of the Land Raiders or my back molar! Javelin, I am a Man O'War player...so I know where you are coming from. Another great game, yes my opinion, that GW just bailed on. What finally turned me off on GW however was not the money so much as the rules lawyers. One reason why games like E-A and Man O' War still appeal to me, one set of rules...no codices. With 40K and Warhammer I felt like I needed a GW legal advisor at every game. Felt too much like our litigous reality after awhile...give me beer and pretzels!

"Unfortunately, all the ranting in the world won't make GW change its ways."

But what if we kidnap GW's corporate staff and rant them to death? XD

SPACE MARINE...

SPA...

SPA... CE...

SPAAAAAAACE HUUUULK!!!

The bastards!

And this most current incarnation will only prove that the game was designed to fail. The rules are not as fun as Space Marine 2nd. Ed., the minitures are absurdly priced...

The bad thing is we will never have those on the dogbins, as the greedy bastards are only offering them "direct".

Direct to hell, this game goes.

I can't understand "direct". Direct to me is like those corporate christmas parties my parents took me to, where Santa would call out all the kid's names and give them presents.

Direct sales, Jakar... Or "you HAVE to buy the game and minis from us and no one else."

That way the exposure will be even less.

Designed to fail, I tellz ya'll!

"And this most current incarnation will only prove that the game was designed to fail. The rules are not as fun as Space Marine 2nd. ed"

IYO. SM2 was, IMO overly complex, used too many counters and took far too long to play. I don't think I ever finished a game, in the years I played it. I much preferred Epic 40,000, and I prefer Epic Armageddon to Epic 40,000.

BTW, the 3,000 point game I played in last night used the following Space Marine army:
1x tactical detachment w/ commander (6 stands, 3 Rhinos
1x Tactical detachment (6 stands, 3 Rhinos)
1x Devastator Detachment w/ Dreadnought (4 stands, 2 Rhinos, 1 Dreadnought)
1x Assault Detachment (4 stands)
1x Terminator Detachment (4 stands)
1x Predator Detachment (4 Predators)
1x Land Raider Detachment (4 Land Raiders)
1x Warlord Titan

Since I have to go to work, I shall leave working out the cost as an exercise for the reader. Very enjoyable game, though. Expecially when 4 stands of assault marines made a Slaaneshi scout titan cry and run away :)

Ahem.

I am certtainly no economics expert, but I seem to recall hearing about companies marketing products they knew would lose them money on purpose, for reasons having to do with tax brackets.

I'm sure GW did not have a 'huge hiccup', rather a very cunning, self serving plan.

I liked Epic but have not played for years - not since my son reached drinking age!
Space Hulk though is superb. This is a game I bring out & play with young nephews/friends/novices & all invariably grasp the rules almost instantly but find it exciting & interesting - they always want to come back for more. What a waste of a game that had the same classic, lasting appeal of Monopoly or Risk.
Nick

Andrew, if you like E:A, you should read the Heresy rules. Even better, in my not-so-humble and completely biased opinion.

By the way, the force you fielded in your game would run $124.97 if you bought it today, and that's without Termies and rules. Add in the rules and you're up to $170.92.

And they believe New Blood will play at these prices... don't think so.

On a tangent, are there any good 6mm sci-fi games left alive out there? I know that Dirtside is OOP, Steve Jackson has stopped producing OGRE minis, GROPOS died with Agents of Gaming... the field's getting a little thin, isn't it? I think that we're pretty much left with the Big Stompy Robots games.

I've downloaded the most recent EpicA rules and I have to say I like them more than SM:AT, SM:TL and Epic40k.

Like many here I'm not exactly sure what the plan really is with EpicA. The prices are astronomical and I can't see many people buying into it.

I'm lucky that my Imperial Guard army was built predominantely during the SM:TL period and I recently won lots of incredibly cheap original style tanks on ebay so the cost doesn't bother me as my army is built and painted.

I'll definitely be buying the rulebook in February but I won't touch a single new miniature.

And don't get me started of Space Hulk being dropped and the crappy 2nd edition they released. Space Hulk 1st edition with Deathwing is one of the most perfect games ever created. Hats off to Richard Halliwell for creating such a great game!

A few years ago some of my German friends came over to the UK. The weather was terrible in the evenings and we had nothing much to do other than watch TV. They saw some Genestealer figures I had primed, got curious about them and I taught them how to play Space Hulk. They loved it and we spent many a happy drunken evening playing Space Hulk and through the Campaigns book, and these people weren't gamers.

I can't believe GW have never bothered to re-issue this game and tried to market it outside of their shops.

["Do you believe that GW would spend tens of thousand of pounds on the Epic 40K injection molds… and then just throw them away? Where the heck are they? Why can't they be put into use again?"]

Hey javelin98,

If you did any research before turning on the auto GW rant you might have found out that the basic infantry is PLASTIC. All you have to do is type "plastic" into the Epic Forum search and all the topics come up talking about it. Also like someone else stated earlier, a Land Raider is larger ( and more metal ) than a GHQ Merkava. I know GW still is a higher price, but I think you are blowing it out of proportion.

Plus if really wanted to play you can find other sources such as Ebay for older Epic figures.

["I'm so sad. Crushed. Disheartened. I *want* this game to be great, truly I do."]

From what I have seen you go on about, I do not think you would even want to try to play the game. Even though you can download all the rules from the Epic site for FREE!

link

But it's ok, at least I won't have to worry about playing EA against someone who is going to continuously complain about everything.

I will not say GW is the greatest company or that they are looking out for the player. They are a company that is trying to make money and that is what they are concerned about the most in the end. So yes, GW has made some big mistakes, but there are some good games and miniatures they put out. You just have to weed through the crap. Same as any other game or genre.

Kierof there is already a pretty active community doing 10mm LoTR using Warmaster. I have collected pretty much all I need from Kallistra and Pendraken (although I use GW for my Orcs) so there is already an option ... never fear.

Oh, good. I knew it was just a matter of time before the flaming started.

["If you did any research before turning on the auto GW rant you might have found out that the basic infantry is PLASTIC."]

Yes, you're quite correct, and thank you for capitalizing the word PLASTIC in such a way as to intimate that I am completely and utterly stupid. The plastic infantry sprues have been available on the GW-US site for years, in fact; those have never gone away. The existence of the plastic sprues kind of reinforces the argument that plastics are still viable and the molds still actually might exist.

Now perhaps you can turn your eye towards the extensive collection of vehicle miniatures that were produced IN PLASTIC ( nice little technique you've got there – mind if i use it? ) for Epic 40K. Where are those molds, is all I was asking. Do you believe that GW threw them away? After spending all those thousands of pounds on them that everyone insists they cost? Maybe they did, who knows; no one at the Fanatic forums seems to know. And who is going to play the game with just basic infantry, anyway? Maybe if we get out the tweezers we can just play a really tiny game of 40K.

["From what I have seen you go on about, I do not think you would even want to try to play the game. Even though you can download all the rules from the Epic site for FREE!"]

Yes, I already have the rules, as well as the NetEpic and Heresy rules ( have you seen those, or did your "research" stop at Chapter-approved sites? ) . But your first point – that I do not want to try the game – is contrary to my previously stated opinion. I *love* the game and want to play, desperately! My position is that the trolls in Nottingham are going to make it impossible for us who already know and love Epic to play because they are pricing this thing way out of the reach of New Blood. And those people who buy off eBay or who have kept all their old minis will do nothing to spread the hobby or prevent GW from shutting it down – again – because the only metric that the company has by which to judge the success of a game is sales. SALES. And we bearded gits aren't enough to keep the game floating long enough for us to ever see the Tau released in 2008 ( link – wow, look at my ability to research ) .

["But it's ok, at least I won't have to worry about playing EA against someone who is going to continuously complain about everything."]

Good luck finding anyone to play with at all. Unless you land a game with someone like us old-timers, there won't be much of a player base to choose from. That's my entire point – for the game to survive and grow, it needs new players, and we will never get those if they need to shell out $200 USD+ just to get a basic force, they can't find them in stores ( where their parents will buy them ) , and the old-timers are saying "Remember when GW pulled the rug out from under us with Epic…." My frustration with Fanatic/Specialist/GW is their extraordinarily handling of the business end of this game; I'd explain the principles of decreasing marginal cost and economies of scale to you, but I don't think you could hear me over the roar of your flamethrower.

["They are a company that is trying to make money and that is what they are concerned about the most in the end."]

By condemning a game to failure with a ludicrously poor business plan? They won't make any money if they don't sell product, and they won't sell any product if the game isn't affordable and assured of long-term support.

["…but there are some good games and miniatures they put out."]

Yes, they have produced some of the best games in the industry – visionary, compelling, fun to play. And wouldn't we all like this to be one of them?

And please forgive my tone in this post, but I was insulted by your remarks insinuating that I'm just some GW-bashing automaton ( "auto GW rant", indeed ) . Perhaps if you turned off your own auto-GW-apologist-flameboy programming you could perceive that I love this hobby and this game, and I just want to see it done right. I even said as much in the beginning of my original post, but you apparently missed that.

"Kierof there is already a pretty active community doing 10mm LoTR using Warmaster. I have collected pretty much all I need from Kallistra and Pendraken (although I use GW for my Orcs) so there is already an option ... never fear."

Thanks for the information Todd. see, I have this weird desire to do the entire seige of Gondolin with Melkor's army of balrogs and dragons and all. Rick Priestly let plans for Warmaster LotR slip last spring but since then GW has been very "mum's the word" about it...I asked Phil Kelly about it at the Canadian GT and he acted as if he didn't know what Warmaster was let alone LotR or LotR Warmaster. Quite the bull artist. Anyways, I'll check out those miniature ranges if GW has problems with Newline or Mr. Zaantz's company.

Cheers

On a related note, I was told by an indy store owner the other day that starting in February, US stores will no longer be able to order any of the Specialist Games range except for BFG minis. If that's true (and I see no reason for him to have lied to me), it certainly seems to imply a radical decrease in support for Jervis' little sub-company. Can anyone confirm or deny?

["Now perhaps you can turn your eye towards the extensive collection of vehicle miniatures that were produced IN PLASTIC"]

I do not know your definition of extensive. SM Rhinos, Land Raiders and Whirlwinds. The Orks had some plastic battle wagons I believe. But most everything else for Epic 40K was metal. GW has revamped the Rhino, Land Raider & Whirlwind to update them to the new models they put out for 40k. That's their choice. I am still going to use the older ones I have. Now there were older plastic vehicles and titans but those were from Space Marine and Adeptus Titanticus and many are very out of date ( design wise ) .

["My position is that the trolls in Nottingham are going to make it impossible for us who already know and love Epic to play because they are pricing this thing way out of the reach of New Blood."]

Everyone keeps going on and on about GW's prices and how high they are. But yet the hobby and number of players is growing. Someone out there is paying the price and as long as they do GW is going to keep the price that high.

Also there are counters that a number of people have made available on the internet ( groups.yahoo.com/group/EpicA ) that can be downloaded. So players can get the rules and counters for free. Granted the counters are not as cool as having the miniatures, but it is a way of trying out the game for free.

As for GW's release plan for EA, I agree that it is flawed. But it seems they cannot put forth the resources to a non core game. So it is the choice of either not releasing the game at all or doing it over a long period of time. I am glad they are at least putting the game out.

It just seemed to me you were going off about things that were not eactly true. So I responded. I know you want to see it done right and so do I. I think they have done a good job, you do not ( You can never get every gamer to agree on a set of rules ) . Either way we both have our own views. But I guess there will always be arguments about GW vs other games, Historical vs. Fantasy/Sci-Fi, etc, etc.

["I guess there will always be arguments about GW vs other games, Historical vs. Fantasy/Sci-Fi, etc, etc."]

Yeah. I wonder what it is about GW that sets everybody off.

Too many counters, Andrew?

There were just 3 typers for Orders... Advance, Charge and "Overweatch" or sumptin--it's been a while since I played with those. No "hit once" or "twice" markers... If you hit something either it blew up or it kept going. Simple.

And the time it took you might be a matter of how you like to play it and the time YOU put into movement because resolution and shootting were pretty straightforward. The stats were coherent and cohesive.

On the other hand Epic40k went "tank heavy" and ridiculous at certain things, the level or artillery detail, etcetera and that is being OVERLY complex and adding NOTHING to the game... It was not fun for me. EpicArmaggedon is built around this same mechanics, no matter what Jervis says.

The game's dead.

A note:

GROPOS is 10mm, not 6mm in scale. And Dirtsisde is pretty much active, if I recall correctly. You just have to go to GZG and ask for a copy. I think it's a NEW print-run that they are getting done.

There are a lot of good places with leftovers for the games you mentioned and there's planty of players' support for them. Why go "official" and cry ther's not enough support if a lot of this rules sets actually get richer with player output?

Just a thought.

javelin98 you are so right in this! I have looked into having plastic injection molds made for my company, and until I win the lottery, it ain't a happenin'. I don't know about you folks, but I don't have $100,000.00 USD to spend on a steel mold. ( Unless you go to China and then it's around $20,000.00 USD to $30,000.00 USD. But then you don't know if your molds are being copied or not! )

That's what it takes to make a mold with several cavities. Look at some of your plastic sprues. Each sprue is more than likely in one mold. And how many sprue types were in the Epic SM game 2nd ed? Yeah. Those molds are there. They are just being stupid about it. You just don't throw away a bunch of $100,000.00 USD molds just because you can. And they don't break that easily either! If that is the case, then the GW share holders should do an audit. July 02 GW UK made, after everyone was paid out, NET PROFIT OF $15,831,727.00 USD Million!

( Source: link )

"August 06, 2003
Games Workshop's annual report is out, and sales and profits both increased in its last fiscal year, which ended June 1. But growth was slowest on a percentage basis in the Americas, where sales grew less than 10% compared to a 19% growth rate over-all. Global sales were up over 20 million pounds vs. 2002 to 129.1 million pounds; pre-tax profits rose to 17.5 million pounds from 13.5 million pounds in 2002."

Source: link

That's a lot of mulla!
So where's the molds GW? Huh? Yeah, we thought so.

My advice, PLAY 2ND EDITION! You can still get the minis, ( ebay, Bartertown… ) ,the rules were easy to run, ( a few house rules here and there, ) and you can throw down with 20,000 points and NOT go broke! Don't have enough? I do. Now if we could just get Brookhurst Hobbies to reclaim the gaming area, 20,000 points will be no problem! Have your people email my people, and then they'll do lunch while we game! D'OH! :-o

Oh, and Meiczyslaw, dude you are so funny!

Anyway, play 2nd ed. You'll save tons of money. It's not like GW is hurting for cash, so why should you

Nukuhiva, from looking at the GW website, everyting but the Terminators and Titan will cost me £53, with 4 spare Rhinos, 8 spare tac stands and 4 spare assault stands. (IF is leave the missile launcers off the tac stands, I have twice as meany left for Devastators) Add in the Titan, and that's about £80. I dunno how much I'd pay to print out the rules - I've got a friend with out-of-hours access to the pffice photocopier :)

Javier B, not too many _different_ counters (you forgot the 'fall back' counter, btw), too many in total - one for every detachment, added up to dozens (we played 6,000 points, usually), cluttering up the battlefield. It got especially messy when you had units close together, and you forgot which one was which. Also, I used to forget to give something important, like my Titans, orders :(

Furthermore, the opposed 2D6 roll for CC bogged things down. If you had, say, 2 Space marine Tactical Detachments fighting each other in CC, you had to make 9 separate dice rolls, sequentially (assuming 1-on-1 combats). in E40K, you made 1 1D6 (IIRC) roll, and in EA, you make 9 1D6 rolls, non-opposed, and you can roll them all at once (or, in this case, roll 6 for the marines, and 3 for the rhinos). speed things up no end.

"No "hit once" or "twice" markers... If you hit something either it blew up or it kept going. Simple"
What are you referring to here? and I don't recall artillery fire being overly complex in E40K.

Hi!

Well, it seems quite a long thread about epic has arisen bringing in most of the points I have stated here and other forums for years.

While I'm a huge epic fan there are several things we fans have to accept that I dont see changing in the near future:

1. Its not a core game anymore. It once was back its its "golden age" of space marine, but it isn't anymore and quite frankly it will never be again. It pains me to say it, but thats reality. Once you get used to it you can "reset" your expectations.

2. Epic has a past. Perhaps Jervis and even GW wish, fevertly so, that the release of the new game was in a vacuum. That people wont compare, mention or remember the versions before it. This is NOT a discussion on what version is better. There is NO right answer to that question. Its a matter of taste. Some like the newer ones, some like the older versions. The point is since epic DOES have a past it is not realistic to think any one ruleset will "magically" re-unify epic players of all persuations. Any version will attract and at the same time alienate epic players. Thats reality.

Another aspect of haveing a "past" is that there are old models or units that dont exsist or are very different than what used to be (not to mentioned if you play squats you may have a slight problem in epic A). No one likes their minis to be made obsolete or "deleted". Rules that dont address this will also alienate. Again there is no way to please all epic gamers. Sme will be happy and others not.

3. Availability. This is an offshoot of it not being a core game. In my experience lots of store owners dont even know epic is to be re-relased or were burnt by epic 40k and dont care. Add to this that places like GW AUS may not even sell it or there are difficulties for independent retailers to get and sell this game. Mind you I think anyone should URGE thier LGS to try to get this game for sale and not take no for an answer because fanatic games CAN be gotten by store owners in the US, but it depends on the store owners drive and perserverance. In any even availability, depending on where you live maybe average, difficult or impossible without ordering through GW online.

This is where price comes in. Its high no doubt. IF you were around like me since epic's beginning you know how high, high really is. To make an army the size of which I'm used to (tens of thousands of points), it would cost thousands of dollars to do. No practical. Due to cost the size of epic armies are well...less epic in size as they get smaller due to cost considerations. Gone are the days of full companies with 30 or 40 stands......

I will buy the new rules. I will try my darnest to promote epic in my area for nothing more than the selfish reason that I hope epic lasts long enough to release that necron army I crave, but I'll try nonetheless.

The odds are against the game. Not because it isn't good or fun, in fact, the rules are the least that matters in tis equation. But because GW has no faith in it. Ever wonder why Jervis is the ONLY voice you hear regarding epic? Where are the great defenders of epic 40k in the GW clan now? Why have no other bigwig publically has been invloved with its creation. Things to ponder. Add this to regional GW areas not carrying it, amking it difficult for independent retailers to carry it and over pricing it...well...one does not need to ajor in marketing to see the serious problems in this scheme.

If epic fails again, as with epic 40k, the blame is squarely on GW's shoulders, not the gamers, not the people who went out and bought it,its not even Jervis's fault. HE only designs the game. He only designs the game and has no control over marketing and distribution. Everyone wants it to succeed...except GW.

Of course "success" is also a matter of expectations. If success is for epic to sell enough to become a core game again. Then well the failure will be abysmal.

If success is for epic to climb out of its last place of GW's worst selling game, then it maybe obtainable.

Then again is obtaining a such a low goal really success?

You decide.

Primarch

Net Epic Coordinator