"What IF Something DID Spook Us On The Moon???" Topic

And then you get into the whole "I've got a secret" thing. How many people would have to keep this secret? Yeah, like THAT'S gonna happen.

Uhmm…
Space Nazis with vril driven space saucers, waiting for Hitlers Brain awakening from his dead dream in his andean fortress when the stars are right?

Also consider that dozens of universities around the world fire lasers EVERY DAY at a laser reflector which is attached to one of the LEMs still up there (in order to accurately measure fluctuations in the Moon's orbit). This would absolutely not be possible if they had not landed on the moon.

Also consider that the Soviets were watching and listening to every aspect of the Moon landings in great detail and would have trumpeted the slightest hint of fakery.

All BS like this does is throw ordure at the memory of one of humanity's greatest achievements.

"We went to the moon. No emotion, no "faith" involved, no blind trust in authority figures."

All right answer just one question how did they survive the radiation when the (modern) space shuttle couldn't get closer than a 100 miles to the Van Allen belt?

"Add to that the fact that I have worked with several people who worked on the Apollo computer systems, one of whom was in Mission Control on July 20, 1969."

So he heard some radio transmissions and maybe received some data…

"Also consider that dozens of universities around the world fire lasers EVERY DAY at a laser reflector which is attached to one of the LEMs still up there"

That does not prove the LEM was placed by a man it could have been done by an unmanned craft.

" And then you get into the whole "I've got a secret" thing. How many people would have to keep this secret? Yeah, like THAT'S gonna happen."

Exactly how many people would have to know? Secrets can be kept…

A lot. I knew the lead engineer on the moon buggy project. He could make a very good milkshake.

"A lot. I knew the lead engineer on the moon buggy project"

So he made a buggy that doesn't mean it went to the moon.

There was found a Intergalactic TV-Guide and… It was full of Terra 50's re-runs.

This thread has suddenly turned into late night saucer talk with Art Bell and George Noory. Next up, the truth about Armstrong's real first words "One small step for man, one giant… Holy $#!+! It is made of green cheese!"

Dragon, speed.

No, I'm not suggesting you are *on* it – The Apollo craft went through the Van Allen belt at such velocity that they spent a very short amount of time there and thus there exposure was limited. Shuttles spend days or weeks in orbit and would, if High enough, have a much more dangerous exposure time; But then again, for most of their usueful work, they do not need to be at such a height anyway.

The Van Allen belts are one of the most misunderstood scientific phenomena in the solar system, almost as badly explained to the public as the Thermal/Sound Barrier was in the 1950s, or the Heaviside Layer in the 1920s. This might help the curious -

link

– though it takes some scrolling and you have to link to another couple of sites for a full explanation.

Even if the Apollo craft passed through the Van Allen belt quickly enough to limit exposure time to lethal radiation I doubt they had enough shielding to survive Gamma radiation for a round trip to the moon. Exposure times would have killed them. I don't believe they had adequate shielding despite what pro Apollo people have to say.

On Youtube there is a video called Lunarcy. Part 3 quotes NASA in their own words…

Thanks for responding Covert Walrus at least your response was better than, I knew somebody who…

I will chalk up the stifles I received today to emotion, faith and blind trust in authority figures.

well, I present evidence . . . What peopel make of it is up to them.

I think you have some very convincing evidence there Walrus. Considering how many people were involved in the Apollo missions how do you keep that many people quiet?

Reminds me of a movie back in 78 Capricorn One.
link
imdb.com/title/tt0077294

Not the moon landing but a fictional story of the government faking the landing of men on Mars.
So if the moon landings were all a hoax, why stage a drama event like Apollo 13?

I've only seen that series of photos that Granddad Adu posted here, once before. They are certainly evocative … but I still find them a bit hard to believe. Like the photos of the Cydonia region on Mars … Of course in both cases it would be literally Earthshaking if true …

You'll want for a really big "if", considering it was a link to Mr. Hoagland's site.

Would people be so vehement in their defence of the moon landing and it's one of humanities greatest triumphs and there is no way it is possibly a fake etc etc, if it had been done by a country OTHER than america? Say Russia had got there first? I bet a lot of attitudes here would be different….

"…And then you get into the whole "I've got a secret" thing. How many people would have to keep this secret? Yeah, like THAT'S gonna happen…"

In my professional opinion (and mine is) once a second person knows "a secret" the probablity of compromise begins to escalate dramatically.

"…Would people be so vehement in their defence of the moon landing and it's one of humanities greatest triumphs and there is no way it is possibly a fake etc etc, if it had been done by a country OTHER than america? Say Russia had got there first? I bet a lot of attitudes here would be different…"

First it's American – just like United Kingdom. Capitals for names of nations.

Second, that is a strawman argument at best. No matter who got there first it was/would have been historic. Now the thought of "…peace loving Communists…" with a military base on the moon probably fills some people with as much unease as the Triple Top Secret American base there currently…Urk! Gasp! Choke! Crummmp.

Yep, gave that post all the serious consideration it deserved.

Gracias,

Glenn

"…Would people be so vehement in their defence of the moon landing and it's one of humanities greatest triumphs and there is no way it is possibly a fake etc etc, if it had been done by a country OTHER than america? Say Russia had got there first? I bet a lot of attitudes here would be different…"

So let's say the Soviets where the ones who made it to the moon. If it was fake do you think for one minute the U.S. would not have let the world know? The same would be true about the U.S. moon mission. The Soviets would never let us get away with it.

As far as keeping a secret goes, if two people can't keep a ******** in the Oval Office a secret then how would hundreds if not thousands of people keep a fake moon landing a secret?

I'm not American.

As Glenn says – the number of people who know a secret exponentially increases the likelihood of the secret being revealed. For example, in my line of work, we knew all about the F-117 several years before it was 'revealed' to the world- the USAF couldn't even keep that secret on a top-secret military base in Nevada, hundreds of miles from anywhere and accessed only by military personnel with the highest level of clearance…

Now just imagine how difficult it would have been keeping a secret with ten times as many people and almost all of them civilian…

As has been said, the subject has been comprehensively debunked time and time again, but as with any religious cult, proof denies faith, so the faithful won't listen, regardless of how deluded their belief-system is.

I have personal experience of dealing with conspiracy-cultists who WILL NOT believe anything that you have to say, because as a military officer you are 'obviously' in on the 'conspiracy' and it is absolutely impossible to disprove someone's wild theory. The ones I encountered at the gates of a particular MoD establishment were as wild-eyed in their devotion as any Al Qa'eda fanatic and were determined to see the 'UFO storage facility' that we 'had' under the station… Of course there was absolutely no way that we wrre going to allow a bunch of nutters into a military establishment, so of course we 'had something to hide'… FFS…

This wasn't helped when a few Airmen in the Medcen, for a 'wheeze', decided to wheel one of their number, wearing an alien mask, on a gurney, between two buildings in full sight of the 'The Truth Is Out There' brigade… The drip filled with green cyalume was a particularly nice touch… Thankfully we didn't have the internet in 1990, but I'm sure that the story has made its way into UFO legend…

As a teenager, I had a keen interest UFOs and thoroughly enjoyed Tim Good's book 'Above Top Secret'. However, once I joined the RAF I discovered that virtually everything in it with reference to the RAF was utter bull – you can't imagine my disappointment!

Back to moon landings… Anyone with the slightest inkling of how rocketry works knows that something as big as a Saturn V is only built for one thing – to break out of Earth's orbit. You can't just park it in Earth orbit once you're up high enough!

If this thread proves anything it is that some people will believe anything, no matter how much evidence is offered to the contrary.

Dragon Surfer, secrets are kept to be sure, but one that big maintained for so long just couldn't happen, not with the whole world watching and listening. In all this time not one person has sold their story for the money? Or just for his fifteen minutes of fame? Come on. You don't think Russia wouldn't have noticed the radio signals were not coming from the moon? You don't think they may have proclaimed that fact to the world as a propoganda victory?

Also the "scaring the Soviets" angle is rubbish. The Soviets were ahead in the Space race for a long time, including up to the moon landings. It was actually the US who were scared less. But for problems with their rocket engines it would have been the Soviets landing on the moon first, not the US at all. That race was jolly close.

The Russians beleived the truth. Why can't you? I am British, and I have sense enough to know that the Yanks did it. And before and after the Yanks, the Russians went there with unmanned probes, more probes than anyone else. And since then, other countries, like the UK and India for instance, have sent their own probes. I know this. All the science books, history books, visual media, film, radio, recordings and records can't all be wrong. It is idiotic to suggest that they are.

And why are you so ready to believe the US didn't? The technology existed then, it exists now and the only reason we haven't sent manned missions back there since is because of money and politics. It's not just black and white "we can go so why haven't we?" Most people live in the real world where a hundred other concerns – including risk to crews and financial viablity – get in the way.

There is no implausible world wide conspiracy. The conspiracy theories make great reading as works of fiction, and can be good entertainment, but that is all they are: fiction, some aiming to offer no more than entertainment, others unscrupously making money off of the gullible and weak minded. It is sad so many are willing to give such tosh serious consideration.

For your info, we ARE now going back. Operation Constellation is in progress as we speak. Several nations have their own projects and, like the US, are aiming to have a presence on the moon around the 2030's. Try and make a consiracy theory hokum out of that one.

Back on topic: A message (along the lines of the 2001 monolith really).

"All these worlds are OURS. Attempt no landings." ;)

I will chalk up the stifles I received today to emotion, faith and blind trust in authority figures.

Or people who don't care to read any more of your posts, because your truth frightens them.

:)

Scutatus, that message was sent in the 2010 movie.

"In my professional opinion (and mine is) once a second person knows "a secret" the probablity of compromise begins to escalate dramatically"

How many people would have to know? Please don't play the professional game, my title degree is bigger than yours there for I trump any debate…

"First it's American – just like United Kingdom. Capitals for names of nations"

Attacking his grammar, eductaion or intelligence does not impress me in fact does just the opposite. Anyone that has to stoop that low is making a personal attack that has nothing to do with the topic. Its a cheap tactic at best…

"Yep, gave that post all the serious consideration it deserved."

I will assume you are done posting on this topic and plan to take the sarcasm somewhere else.

"So let's say the Soviets where the ones who made it to the moon. If it was fake do you think for one minute the U.S. would not have let the world know? The same would be true about the U.S. moon mission. The Soviets would never let us get away with it"

All the USA has to do is say thats my story and I am sticking it to it! The US parades out its own "evidence" and it goes nowhere.

"Now just imagine how difficult it would have been keeping a secret with ten times as many people and almost all of them civilian…"

How many of them would have to know? The engineer that made the buggy? The guy who made Tang? A guy in mission control monitoring an umanned craft on its way to the moon?

I thought about responding to some of the other comments posted but decided its a waste of time. We disagree and this could go on forever. I will keep my opinion just like your are entitled to yours. I am not a hard core fanatic or government hater and willing to debate just about anything. It boils down to what set of "evidence" you believe. The debate is rapidly evolving into insults so I am finished.

Thanks for all the posts even people with opposing view points.

I see. You've decided that you are now 'insulted' and are now withdrawing from the debate as it's beneath your intelligence and doesn't suit your comfy 'conspiracist' worldview… Very mature.

Do you realise that you haven't actually presented any evidence as to why you think the USA made it all up? You're simply agreeing with another bunch of fruit-loops without any actual individual and rational thought-process.

How many people would it take to cover it up…? Hundreds and possibly even thousands of people, mate. From the hundreds of people who work on a launch site, to the hundreds of people who work in mission control, to the hundreds of sailors who watch the capsule splash-down and the astronauts climb out, to the thousands of communications specialists and foreign intelligence agencies who were all pointing their parabolic radio antennae at Apollo 11 to hear exactly what was said (which was broadcasted in 'clear' incidentally – it was not scrambled and could be heard by anyone with the equipment to hear (so much the the 'NASA filtered embarrassing bits out' theory)).

I find it truly bizarre that people are willing to believe ANYTHING other than the fact that mankind is capable of achieving incredible deeds… e.g. "Man could not possibly have built the pyramids so therefore they MUST have been built by Little Greys…"

How many of them would have to know?

What R Mark said.

Let's say the manned moon landings *were* faked, and we just sent unmanned spacecraft to the moon and back. Everything happened exactly as we've always been told it did by the history books, but the astronauts stayed safely here on Earth.

Now, to keep the hoax manageable, let's make sure that *only* the people who absolutely needed to be in on the hoax knew that it was a hoax. That would still leave:

o All of the Apollo 11 through 17 astronauts.

o The head honchos in Houston Mission Control, and the top guys in each major department, just to make sure all of the bases were covered and nothing was left to chance. (That's assuming they could fool all of the rest of the people in Mission Control, none of whom was an idiot.)

o At least the top guy and a few technicians at *every* US and foreign tracking station around the world. It wouldn't do for one of the tracking stations to point out that the Apollo signals weren't coming from the Moon, but from a small studio in Peoria. That would also mean that more than a few Soviets and others not-so-friendly to the US would have to be in on the hoax. I wonder what it took to buy their participation and secrecy?

o The sound and radio technicians who rigged the broadcast so that messages being broadcast from the Earth "seemed" to originate from the an unmanned craft on the Moon, and included a "realistic" radio delay. Remember, *anyone* on the Moon-side of the Earth could listen in if they had simple ham radio equipment and a parabolic antenna; they'd have noticed if the signals weren't coming from the direction of the Moon.

o The model makers, photographers, lighting technicians, sound men, set decorators, script writers, directors, editors, special effects crew, and anyone else involved in faking the film and photos of the landings. Making a movie, even a cheap-looking one like the film of the moon landings, takes a lot of people.

o The Navy brass and divers who helped the astronauts sneak back into the capsule after the unmanned capsule splashed down. Then again, they're military, they're used to taking secrets to the grave. (Any ex-military personnel want to comment on that one?)

That *might* cover the bare minimum of people in on the hoax, and you're still talking about hundreds of people, not one of whom has stepped forward in the intervening 40 years and said, "Yeah, it was faked, and here's how I did my part in it."

Dragon, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Apologies Glenn for missing the capital A – not intended. As for the question, I wasn't trying to stir – but it was interesting the reactions regards the conspiracy theory thing, so given the large percentage of TMP that are American I was trying to figure out if people would look at it all the same way if it hadn't been America to accomplish it first. Wasn't meant to offend and get people waving the Stars n Stripes and attacking me ;-p (joking)

Thanks you Sargnarhes, Yeah I know it was 2010, but its still the whole 2001/2010/2061/3001 monolith thing (there were four books eventually don't you know.) Not that it matters.

Nicely put Jpattern. All good reasons why the conspiracy could not be. On top of all of that, aside from the tracking signals and radio communication coming from the wrong place, which surely would have been noticed (a big give away I would have thought) lets not forget the Russians also sent probes to the moon throughout the whole thing, before, during and after. They surely discretely checked out the US landing sites for themselves, wouldn't you think? If they had found nothing, no left behind landers, footprints or US flags for instance, they would have surely proclaimed the fact to the world in a propoganda coup. But no, they stayed quite, quite quiet. So apparently the Russians are actually in on the hoax too, if one is to believe it is all a lie.

I wonder what the US government gave the Russians to buy their silence? And if the US Government are buying off the Russians to stay silent about a hoax they perpetrated to panic the Russians in the first place … sheesh, talk about madness.

Capricorn one was a great movie, but it was just a movie. Nothing like it actually happened. Come on, of course the landings happened. It is the conspiracy theory itself that is the unviable hoax. I am amazed it fools anyone, but it seems to suck in all too many.

And I'm done here I think.

Evidently it could be the Nazis:

link

All I remember about one of the other books was some ship or something has to make an emergence landing on Europa, where they were told to avoid.

Of course this now reminds me of the Galactic Patrol book of the Lensman series, and how every one is warned off of Aresia. Helmuth sends a ship there and the crew goes mad killing each other. Helmuth goes himself and is given a warning and threat and sent home.

People will believe anything these days. You should see this web site.
link
I guess they fall into the same category.

flicking … that link is absolutely scary … It makes for great Sci-fi though … What is really scary is if those guys really believe it !

Scutatus 27 Feb 2009 6:48 a.m. PST:
"So apparently the Russians are actually in on the hoax too, if one is to believe it is all a lie. I wonder what the US government gave the Russians to buy their silence?"

I have it from a reliable source (= random Moon hoaxer nic on an Internet discussion forum) that if the Soviets had blown the whistle on the hoax there'd been a nuclear war…

'Reliable Source' = Crackpot idiot spouting insane, badly-informed, internet-fed opinions as 'fact'

This might have been what spooked us over there:

link

CC

Oh god CC.

How many times must we relive that nightmare? Funny the first couple of times.

Where's that episode of G.I. Joe where Cobra Commander carves his face on the surface of the moon with a laser. His master plan, Intergalactic graffiti.

Well … I'm sure someone mentioned this … but I'm pretty sure I know what "Spooked" us off the moon … $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Legion 4, I beat you to it with the second post in the thread: "The bill".

And, please, never post long strings of unbroken text. It screws up the line-wrapping.

Thanks jp2 … I knew I heard it somewhere … And I'll keep that in mind about the text and line wrapping … (What's line wrapping ?!)

Great, now you've stretched the page out.

Line wrapping
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_wrap

If you trust wikipedia, other wise google is your friend.
I'd post the whole definition but I'm afraid of what it would look like now.

Ah I see now !!! Sorry … … I'm old and feeble … How can I fix it ?!

Grovelling to the editor would be my suggestion…

I just did that … Thanks !!!

Ah, the old 'cost too much' argument.

Even that does not hold water when you look at the costs involved; The British Astronomer Royal commented that the moon program was costly – almost as costly as the amount Americans spent on cigarrettes in a year for the entire program. And let us not forget that Saint Richard (Nixon) spent 10 times as much on "The War On Cancer" which did nothing except make chemotherapy less than 50% lethal to the patient, by specifically ignoring the touchy subject of genetics in all the research it funded.

Even today, the money going into the ISS each year is less than what the US spends on pizza and beer in 6 months. And just quietly, a little less of those substances would improve both the health and the international standing of America.

Still, let's leave this debate where it sits, OK? My first post on the topic was probably the real story, after all . . .

Apples and oranges, Walrus, apples and oranges.

Securing funding for a space program whose benefits are lost on most of the populace is a lot different from funding research into a disease that affects most of the populac in one form or another. Success doesn't even factor into it.

Believe what you want, but NASA's budget was slashed beginning in the late '60s: link

You can't keep going to the moon if you don't have the cash to do it.

And note that the budget cuts began in '66, before we even got to the moon.

Something scared us, all right: the Benjamins.

jpattern, I never said anything about the budget being reduced: I just pointed out the fact that the US governement had money for other proirities, which were politically biased. Even today, the Health, Eductaion and Welfare Department recieves a yearly income IIRC 10 times that of NASA ( If you don't believe the common illusion people have about the CIA and military funding of NASA that runs into trillions ) and the US _still_ has one of the five highest rates of illiteracy in the OECD*.

To continue the fruit metaphor, that argument about money is in some ways bananas.

* Oh, to be an American teacher; You can fail to educate and yet you never get fired for incompetence, only sex. ( I apologise to any teachers reading this – It's more the system than individuals. )

No argument, people (usually) pay for what they value RIGHT NOW, and that isn't always in their best interests, long-term.

I planned to write a letter to OJ Simpson to see if "Capricorn One" was based upon the actual moon landing conspiracy then I saw (somewhere that I can't remember but….I am sure it is authoritative) a web page that said he had been "replaced" by the Greys with Jack the Ripper and that they had time jumped Jack (just before the Vorlons took him) in conjunction with the American government's moon landing conspiracy simply to make my extremely boring and trivial life more interesting (Since IT is always about me..at least in my universe).

Then the visions (Ooops, it was another totally accurate and authoritative web page) told me that I was Neil Armstrong and that the American government had brainwashed me into believing I had landed on the moon using technology from the Roswell crash (in conjunction with the Mayan and Incan space civilizations) and that my memories had been split between the actual Neil Armstrong and a pudgy 49 year old poster on the Miniatures Page because the "truth must be out there."

At that point, I yawned, took another drink and went back to sleep. Good thing I have a boring and trivial life….because all of this excitement would kill a normal human….but not me because I am an alien/human hybrid…according to……

I'm guessing t'was a Starbucks.