"Does anyone know about Portuguese inter-war uniforms?" Topic

My target year is for 1932 and up to say 1935. I've got the WW1 uniform info but from then on I can't find anything unitl the '60s. Not surprisingly, that's when they went to war again.

Really only after land-based uniforms. I can resort to the WW1 versions, but thought I'd ask here just in case anyone has any idea.

There are a few folks from Portugal who post all the time in the HaT forum they probably know all about it, try there if no one here knows.

Mike "Bunkermeister" Creek
bunkermeister.blogspot.com

I Googled 'Antonio Salazar,' and came up with a period photo: link
It looks like they had switched from the blue-gray uniforms worn in Flanders and the pale gray uniforms the Metropolitan Army wore in East Africa, to a light khaki.
Grelber

The uniforms in that photo (I see it as black and white) are, I think, Metropolitan ones in blue-gray fabric.

By the late 1920s I believe light Khaki was worn in the colonies, it had been in WW1 and before, besides the lighter grey/white ones.

There is some information and some colour plates in the Portuguese Army history on uniforms for these period, I'll have a look for it. They wore an interesting helmet and sometimes looked quite British (though maybe this is in the later 1930s).

Thanks.
So at present I'm looking at the same WW1 type uniform, but in light khaki. As it has come up, this would be for the colonies – back of beyond in the Pacific.

Knotel/Knotel/Seig has the new helmet coming in circa 1935.

Brown leather equipment from 1920.

Grey-blue cloth for troopers, with arm of service in gold on the stand-and-fall collar.

Hello iceaxe I am one of those Portuguese that posts here all the time,like bunkermeister says…here is why:
The truth is no one wargames in Portugal!too many great beaches lots of sun and foreign girls and these days only 2 wargame stores in Lisbon!its pathetic!
Not trying to tell u the story of my life here but I have even started a figure production because of this!!!!!
wasrgame48.blogspot.com
Now the uniform:if you can tell me exactly where since we had troops all over the globe,but you cant go wrong with WW1 British weebing,but we have a strange canteen,wolseley helmet and other sun helmets or our kepi,we also used a strange bell like helmet resembling that of the Japanese of WW2 and mainly German guns,tunic is of basic design.
Could you please explain what is that about Back of beyond and why have you came across Portuguese troops?

Sorry that is wargames48.blogspot.com

Lusitanus,

Good look with the figure production. If the photos of the British on the blog are figures you have produced, they look great. It would be nice to see some Portuguese subjects.

Coconuts! Dude! Thanks, they are mine and I have lots more you will see, Portuguese soldiers will follow, which kind would you prefer? Are you Portuguese too?

What is wrong with the English ones? In my view the English girls really behave out here! I mean they bring their boyfriends these days, I hear they flock to Greece to breed, but not here… us Latins are out of fashion, which is bad, cause back home I have seen them girls do really ugly stuff, drunk, half naked in December etc.

Today's danger for VD´s are mostly Brazilians and the beauties from the Eastern block, amazing!

Actually in my youth Coconuts was the disco in Cascais where I had English dates in the Summer and Spanish in Easter! Once I landed a whole bus loaded with Spanish thang, I did offered to all the guys in my pool lounge, they still talk about it today! Even the teacher… wonderful days in the 80´s and 90´s!

See if you can comment on the soldiers I will be posting!

Lusitanus,

Those are well sculpted figures, well done. I look forward to seeing the others, do you have any Italians to go with the British 8th Army? That would be cool.

I am not Portuguese, but I did live in Portugal while I was studying at university and I like Portuguese and Brazilian history a lot. I think I would most like to see some Portuguese for Seven Years war era, maybe some for the Civil Wars in the 1820s and 30s, and then any types of colonial troops from the 1800s to the 1960s as this period of colonial military history really interests me and Portugal had lots of interesting troops in this era.

As far as the English girls go, I am actually English and I was basing my experience more on what I see and hear about here in the UK, there are good treatments for VD these days here, but it is still worth watching out for. I think it is not massively common but I am usually surprised by finding that it is more common than I would have expected. Hence it is worth being careful as you can be lured into a false sense of security.

You are right about the crazy stuff that happens though, it seems to be more extreme now and is becoming slightly outlandish (a new trend seems to be younger girls all pretending, or actually being bisexual, and always snogging other girls in ostentatious way, night clubs and bars end up relatively full of this type of thing after a certain hour) though maybe it is that I am getting old now…!

I always liked Portuguese girls a lot, in the North where I was living there were many beautiful Portuguese girls, I got the impression that they were generally better looking than the Spanish girls I met.

Coconuts,
Thank you for the pointers but I am also (kinda) retired from the artistic life,and pushing 40.
My goal is to produce every conflict I possibly can,especially Portuguese history but do you think the British buy them?
Italians,Finns,Russians,French will follow(already have all equipment and weapons made),at the start I will have DAK,8th army,GI`S,Whermacht,Lufthwaffe and little else,terrain and 1 or 2 vehicles to start with.
It is not 28mm because being an architect I was lured into a scale close to our 1/50 the 1/48 close to 40mm as you call it,that might also be a problem to overcome as generally people use 28mm hope people change?
Portuguese girls are ok but really shy and short,the last European girls with the moral of the 1800 Century based on Catholic education and stubborn ways,they just dont use it, I had a friend that pulled only when he could fake streams of tears poor guy!We have a huge British community here in Cascais,I have on my left an English house,in front Irish an in general a German area of residence.
We are definitely getting older our generation is closer to our Father´s than people only 10 years younger.
Were you related to the Porto wine and studied there I heard Braga is really great fun!
Actually I am sort of planning on producing some 28mm too so I don´t do only 1/48.

Lusitanus,

I don't know if Portuguese figures will sell well in the UK, maybe for some of the more well known periods like Napoleonic and Middle Ages. I think the problem for the other eras is that there isn't enough good reading material in English to let people know about them and then get interested in them.

There was a really good book published a couple of years ago about all of Portugual's colonial campaigns in the 19th and early 20th Centuries by an expert on the field who has done masses of research on it. It was really well written and readable. I thought at the time that this would be a great book to stimulate interest among wargamers, if it had been in English and not in French. This limited it's appeal a bit.

I was thinking that a good subject for a book in English would be WW1 era in Portugal; there is quite a lot of interest in WW1 in the UK but people usually forget about the Portuguese participation. And then, so many interesting political things went on in Portugal itself during the war besides the actual fighting.

I hope that your figures do well, I will try to follow the blog to see how they are getting on. I have not heard much about 1/48 before, apart from some late war stuff. However once there are French, Italians, early war British etc. it is something that will be more likely to interest me, especially if they are similar to the quality shown in the photos on your blog. They could be used for skirmishes or as models.

I was thinking that 20mm WW2 Portuguese would be good, to use in 'what if…' battles for the Acores or the invasion of East Timor. I don't know how well they would sell though. They are something I will try to sculpt I think if I have the chance and can produce something worthwhile.

I think my attraction to Portuguese girls was for similar reasons as my attraction to Polish girls (a lot of the time I lived in Porto I had a Polish girlfriend in fact), i.e. that they are different to UK ones. I think this is perhaps why Portuguese men always seem to like blonde girls a lot. I was studying in the Faculdade de letras in Porto university and nearly all the students there were female and I hardly remember seeing a single real blonde, apart from foreigners.

Cascais sounds interesting, I have never been there, though I have been to Braga. Where I lived in Porto there were few foreigners around, and these were mainly Polish, then one or two other English students and one or two from most other European countries but all outnumbered by the Polish. I suppose I learned more Portuguese than I would have if there had been loads of English people to talk to..!

Unfortunately I have no connection to the Port wine families (apart from drinking it), I think they are very wealthy and live sort of seperately to the rest of the city, I remember that they had a kind of exclusive club. I was just there to study the language and culture.

I really want that book asap!!!!would you know the name so I can try to find it?
You know a big deal about us actually I am in the process of writing one myself!but excluding to an extent the political side.
I am very stubborn so I worked on 36mm-40mm rather than 28mm which is more common for wargamrs,now lets see if it works,I will have 20 plus packs of 4 figs.so every army will be there I guess and if not they will be.
For example Slovakians and Senegal tiralloeurs!
20mm is a scale I could try given all the public but it is not my favourite,but who knows.
We have very few blondes here,those existing ones belong to the rich and famous,LOL.We now have vast numbers of Brazilians coming from their inland so very dark and short in size,but they are really into us guys(my single friends are having fun),making a change from the usual I couldn´t care less Catholic attitude of our own girls…

Very curious on how and why did you chose Portugal for you study,it is a very small country hidden away,almost no one knows we exist,unless for vacations.
On the wargames side I am happy I have just heard that the biggest model shop is opening very close to my house and they are going to have wargames there!!!
28mm is my Achilles heel I mean I dont like it but everyone here and in London tells me to do it instead of my 36-40mm,I have so much work done now I cant just go back and start again!
Yes it a big scale for skirmish actions but I do really big ones in my dinning room and I do use tanks and other vehicles all in 1/48 there are loads available Corgi etc. so why not supplying the figures for that scale!??
It´s quite obvious the gamers can use the same rule sistems as for 28mm!size is almost the same only BETTER!!!

Lusitanus:

The title of this book is:

Pelissier, Rene, Les Campagnes Coloniales du Portugal 1844-1941, Pygmalion, Paris, 2004.

I think it is still in print and can be purchased from some of the French internet book shops like alapage.

It is good, and Pelissier has written some important books on this subject, especially the military sides. These are available still as well, either in the original French editions or in Portuguese translations. I have mostly Portuguese translations because wierdly they are cheaper than the original French books.

I was thinking about 1/48 scale and imagining what a game would look like, and I think I can see your point as it would look fairly cool, better than 28mm I think. I could picture in my mind's eye some 40mm French or Dutch figures and Germans for 1940, and some of my favourite tanks from this era but in larger scale… I thought that mainly the obstacles would be finding resources for this scale and making it more popular, but as you say there are a fair amount of models and vehicles already. Perhaps if you carried on with the blog you could add links to other makers and useful pages. And in your new local model shop, if you put on some games people would be unlikely to overlook them!

It is interesting to hear about the Brasileiras, I only met a few in Porto but it sounds like the numbers have been increasing. I thought the more short and rounder Brasileiras I did see were quite attractive, and they do seem to have a different idea of Catholic values than you find in parts of europe. I remember a memorable quote in a Brazilian novel I read, a gangster character in the Favela says something like 'Brazilian girls are born having already lost their virginity' but in more crude language.

It could be that the Portuguese girls are just more conservative, because I am Catholic myself, and most of my girlfriends here and elsewhere have been Catholic as well and generally I have not noticed really significant difference in general attitudes between me and my other friends who are atheists, protestants, agnostic etc.

I ended up studying Portuguese because I started out with French, and ended up liking that language and becoming interested in learning other romance languages. I also had been interested in Spanish/Latin American military history for years while growing up, and this led quite early onto Portuguese and Brazilian history. With these interests, and the fact that Portuguese, in terms of numbers, is quite a significant world language, it seemed a good idea to study it at university with French. I am generally pleased to have made the choice as you can learn (at least from an English person's perspective) a lot of interesting and unusual stuff that otherwise I would never have know existed.

(Are you going to include Sidonio Pais and the strange 'revolution' that went on around him in your book on WW1? I thought this was quite interesting, because the advent of Sidonio to power sort of made Portugal the first 20th C. country to have a Fascist style political movement, before it had been thought of in Italy, or anywhere else I think.)

I will try to buy all I can!

Many thanks again my fiend,if you were in Portugal I would be buying you lunch,we have a fisherman´s village 45 minutes from here which is amazing, search for Ericeira if you can.

I am really concerned about my 48´s I mean you guys almost only talk about 28mm…

Sidónio could have been pro German studied there etc.we cant be sure now but he is very important to us,the governements that preceded him were all very fragile and incoherent rendering Portugal into a military solution.

It is amazing what some English books say about our fighting skills I mean insulting, only the French did us some justice and recognition we had to endure the 1st onslaught of the Michael op. alone with no cannons only vickers and enfields did you know?

Lusitanus,

I read an interesting thing about Brazil and Paraguay, that after the Triple Alliance War in the 1860s and all the Paraguayan men nearly having been killed, there were most of the Paraguayan women left and a Brazilian Army of occupation in Paraguay. This meant, apparently, that many of the subsequent generation of Paraguayans had Brazilian fathers from among the soldiers. This would be a volatile mixture of peoples for a nation, the Paraguayan Indian, the Brazilian Indian, the African and some Portuguese.

On other topics…

As far as 28mm goes, I never have liked it much for WW2. Lots of the models you can get seem a bit cartoonish, and usually I have stuck with old fashioned 20mm and 10mm. There is a huge range of stuff available in 20mm, for example. I had never really considered 1/48 much before, but the more I think about it the more possibilities I can see, it would be possible to build some cool terrain. This scale is something closer to the size of the toy soldiers I used to have when I was younger, and this is not a bad thing.

It is true that British books (especially from the Imperial era up to the 1940s) can be dismissive of the Portuguese. They were seen, I think, like other Southern European and Catholic peoples (the Irish as well) as backward and so on. Generally, the more that you read the more I think you realise that Portugal did not always do very well from the alliance with the UK, sometimes I would read things and think…it is hard to believe that this was actually done with an ally.

The British troops at the battle of the Lys and facing the Michael offensive suffered the same thing as the Portuguese and behaved in the same way, and also the Portuguese units faced additional challenges. I found the following article quite interesting concerning the Portuguese soldiers on the Western Front:

Marques, Isabella Pestanha, Os Portugueses nas Trincheiras in Teixeira, Nuno Severiano (ed.) Portugal e a Guerra, Colibri, Lisbon, 1998 pp.71-87

The author seems to have done a lot of research in archives, and she also seems to have written a few other things on the same subject.

Can you buy me a Francesinha for lunch? Do you have them in the South? I really have saudades of Francesinhas…

I had one francesinha on the Cascais Marina the other day and we were eating for a long time,and it was really tasty.

It is actually a confusing combination of several ingredients as you know,but it is fantastic.

In that Ericeira village they have magnificent pastry and shellfish galore (sometimes they write SELFISH,on MENUS hahaha).

Sure there is a francesinha waiting for you,assuming you will return here,since you haven´t been to the center and south you must visit again!There is a big difference from the north.
I used some 20mm in the past but they are too small,36-40mm is very generous in size and great for conveying detail,I am planning a range of moderns like never seen before something out of this world crazy top secret worth a big try!
We are the oldest allies in the world and keep saying that.
England has given us great help in keeping the Spanish out, but it is amazing just how many frogs we had to swallow for the English,things like loosing a hole village(Olivença)to Spain in Napoleonic time maybe an exchange for Gibraltar?
The hole nasty business of the rush for Africa or should we say "the rush for Portuguese Africa"which eventually killed the Portuguese Monarchy,Then in the 1500-1600~1700 the constant attacks in Brasil and The Asian and Pacific territories where they took the side of the raiding French and Dutch piracy (pathetic how they call them Dutch Indies).
I mean only the Germans did wait till 1910 to start attacking us in Africa!The lack of decent blondes in the Summer since they now all flock down to Greece…
I could go on forever right?

Have you ever given a thought about just how did the Portuguese manage to wage an all out war on several fronts against an overwhelming enemy(African terrorists,Cubans,Chinese,Russians,several hidden European countries) in Africa in the 1961-74 war?
We did not loose a single front,like Vietnam for the Americans,we retired from the colonies with the red revolution in Lisbon.

This is without doubt the most revoltingly racist, sexist thread I have witnessed on TMP and that's saying something.

Perhaps you would care to confine yourselves to talking about toy soldiers rather than your fantasies abou the sexual attributes and diseases of various nationalities? Indeed you might start by reviewing the forum guidelines.

Historical correction:the territories of Goa,Damão e Dio in India were lost in combat,against overwhelming odds!
Still Lucan: you are wrong and making serious accusations be careful with your words.
I have family from Brazil,Angola,Germany and Denmark and never felt insulted by JOKES in a well intentioned and fun dialog,so go toss your s in the ally.

My range will also include some great terrain houses,ruins,shelters,sandbags etc.
A Dingo armored car is my sole vehicle so far but there will be more any suggestions?

So your nasty little remarks about brasileiras are all just in jest? Well you should be aware that this is an international board with an international readership and not everyone finds your brand of humour funny. I for one do not appreciate your ridiculous stereo-typing of Brazilians. Nor do I see what any of this has to do with the topic.

Fortunately for you the Editor has removed some of your most egregious remarks, although there are enough 'gems' like "" to give people a good idea of your nature.

Not only you are wrong again but

Plus nothing was removed,the message deleted was my doing.

Lusitanus,

I came across a good book on the Portuguese wars in Africa a few years ago. I forget it's exact title and author but I am going to try looking it up again because it was a good single volume study of the military aspects of the Portuguese African wars, particularly looking at the way the Portuguese Army conducted counter insurgency with very limited resources in an adverse international climate.

The author was a US Army officer who had been part of the NATO liason staff involved with the Portuguese Army and this had led him to find out about the African Wars and to try to distill what could be learned for other Armies from the way the Portuguese fought the counter insurgency campaigns. I found it really useful because it was all in one volume; I have a few Portuguese books on the same subject but dealing with individual battles or themes, or odd volumes of the big Portuguese Army history of the wars I found still on sale and managed to buy in Porto while I was there.

I think this period of the Army's history is interesting because it managed to adapt to fighting several full scale wars at once fairly quickly, whereas in the 1930s at the time of the military reforms, the Spanish Civil War and then WW2 the Army had problems coping with all of the different demands being made on it. I was wondering if after allied military help became available in WW2 advantage was taken of the funds (closely controlled and in short supply before that) and so on to make up for the previous shortages and to strengthen the Army's capabilities. I have never come across a book dealing with this intermediate period yet so it is still quite mysterious to me.

I like the vehicles of the early years of the Desert War a lot, either the Italian tanks, trucks and A/Cs of the period (they would look pretty cool in 1/48th scale) or British tanks and trucks of the same era (e.g. Rolls Royce A/C, Marmon A/C, A9, A10, Matilda, Lt. tank Mk VI etc.) I also like 1940 era tanks like Pz 1, 35t and 38t, French FTs and H35 and H39, D2 etc.

I would guess there is a lot of work in making a vehicle of this size, but they must look impressive. Also support weapons and artillery pieces in this scale would.

Some of our discussion seems to have been cut out…

But it is still probably one of the longest that has gone on on Portuguese themes on the Interwar board for a while.

I have quite an interesting military history of the battles for Goa and Damiao, but it is true that the Indian Army made sure that the forces used were so overwhemling that no effective resistance could be mounted with the forces available.

Despite the fact that the UK does still have a fair amount of contact with Portugal, and a lot of UK people go there, and that the UK has had such long involvement with Portugal (The good and the bad stuff) it is the case that generally not that much is known or heard about this. Usually it comes up when the Peninsula War is talked about, but otherwise not so much.

There is a series of Osprey style books on Portuguese military history you might be interested in and one of the titles covers the Invasion of Goa. You might also enjoy the title on the Guerra Fantástica, which is a largely forgotten apect of Anglo-Portuguese cooperation.

link

Coconuts for India a friend of mine had her grand father in the Goa´s last garrison in the event of the invasion,they had little more than a few MG34,and I suppose some limited anti-aircraft defense,there are pictures of the soldiers in prone positions firing onto the sea!
Goa and the others but especially Goa(quem viu Goa escusa de ver Lisboa)was a perfect happy and prosperous territory the Indian community that had to stay not being able to flee with the Portuguese to Moçambique or Back to Portugal was really sad because of the return of Indian traditional Castas-chast?sistem on which the "tribes or groups" are treated very differently from each other…with us that was out…people were all equal.
Today they almost forgot to speak our language but there are many Christians left and they really enjoy their Portuguese names,architecture,churches,street names,food etc…
After the 3 territories were taken in 1961 Portuguese were treated in a shameful way,forgotten,plus they were never welcomed back properly,those who survived years of subhuman conditions.
Marcelo Caetano the one just after Salazar had really good relations with the USA,but Vietnam was on,and he was negotiating peace in a slow way,our counter insurgency was considered the best in the world since 1890 and till 1974 the Americans were really impressed with that and the Portuguese special forces like the Paras,Commandos and Marines it was different then but the war was won to the exeption of Guiné-Bissau because of the borders…red revolution won…only to transfer to civil war for decades in some cases,like Moçambique,Angola and Guiné-Bissau…on many other countries not a shot was fired and in some places we did not had to leave at all but we did…because of international pressure.

I will produce early war vehicles hence the Dingo,it took months do do the master,a batch of 10 soldiers take 5 days!
I am really into Leros 1943,Crete 1941…anything Mediterranean really,the Desert of course and the little conflicts in Morrocco,Tunisia,etc.the less known battles.
We were and are good allies but,who knows maybe historians will now turn to this uncharted matters,besides the bad memories(for us)of the Peninsular war and the dreaded Beresford…

One of my favorite Army/History books:
Telo,António josé,Alvares,Mário.Armamento do Exército Portugues,vol-1 Armamento ligeiro,Defesa e Relaçoes Internacionais,Prefácio 2004
Here I have the weapons we used since the Peninsular war till now!For vehicles I have Janes and other´s,for uniforms I have some but they are quite scarce and usually only show the front side!(I got through that with pictures).
My objective is to have everything I can on all conflicts and a few vehicles and artillery to cater my wargaming friends within the brand,so as to not being a soldier production only affair.
A friend of mine with whom I share a taste for tall young immigrants is a resin cast maker and will help out also with some very cool buildings!
Fingers crossed for 1/48.36-40mm hope people enjoy good quality sculptures and dont mind having a small unusual(not 28mm)collection!

Lusitanus,

That fits very much with what the book I was refering to says about the defences on Goa; most of the weapons were infantry small arms, I think there were some WW2 era Bofors guns but without proper ammo and some WW2 era PIATs that were defective from being stored for so long, and not a lot else. The Indians also seem to have been careful to use a very large number of troops compared with the numbers of defenders and plenty of support equipment in the attack, so as to overrun Goa as quickly as possible.

I guess the Indians would reintroduce an effective caste system once they took over; there still seems to be various problems with violence and conflict now between people from the lower castes who claim not to be Hindus at all (either they convert to Christianity or are followers of local traditional religions)and the higher castes who want them to remain as lower caste Hindus and not change religion.

I wondered how the Portuguese language was getting on in Goa, it sounds like what one of my friends told me about Macau. He told me that even though there were Portuguese buildings, Portuguese foods and other cultural practices still surviving quite nicely while he was there, not so many local people knew Portuguese anymore. On a related point, I have an interesting book about Hindu architecture that shows temples and other religious structures in the Goa area that look from the outside exactly like Portuguese churches, even being painted white on the exterior etc. whereas inside they are very much like other Hindu temples built in more conventional style.

As you said the ex-Portuguese colonies in Africa have had huge problems following independence. It seems to have taken nearly three decades since the end of Portuguese rule in 1974 for them to start to settle down and become more stable. Millions of people must have died in Angola alone during the civil wars.

From what I have read about this area (less than I would like, but after leaving university I no longer have had as much time, or easy access to a good range of books on these subjects) it seems like it would have been much better if Portugal could have stayed on longer, left more slowly in stages, and if other countries had helped with support and development money (instead of weapons and political manipulation as part of US/Soviet conflicts). Then the nations may have had a more secure basis for becoming independent states.

Instead of having to leave overnight in a massive rush after 25 April. One of my dad's friends lived in Rhodesia in the 60s and 70s and was in the armed forces during the 1970s, because of the insurgency going on there too. He told me that he saw the consequences of the collapse of Portuguese Mocambique first hand, when his unit had to help secure the border and protect the Portuguese and Mocambiquan refugees who were coming across in large numbers. He also said that killings and atrocities were happening to the refugees even near to where the border posts and the Rhodesian troops were.

I wonder if Salazar had been younger and less intransigent he could have produced a better solution; from reading some of the things he said he accurately predicted the consequences of the end of Portuguese rule, and he would also have the prestige and additional political skills to put into practice a more effective solution than Caetano could attempt. For example, I think he had more influence and prestige among the army officers, even those who became very left-wing after 1974. And Caetano had too many things to deal with, and not the same authority as Salazar to put his ideas into practice.

I can see how it would take a long time to sculpt vehicles in 1/48th as the level of detail necessary on a large model must be high, but then again they will look impressive. If you make some French colonials (e.g. to use for operation Torch and battles later in Tunisia on the allied side) this will be good; I will watch out for Italians as well. Usually Italians vs. British are the campaigns in the med. theatre that interest me the most (also the ones with the French); I am thinking that Greeks would be good too, maybe even Persians (the battles were quite small)…

I heard that another sculptor (Tom Meier) was making some 1/48th WW2 Germans, someone saying that they were the best figures he had seen, maybe you know about these already.

Finally do you know if any other volumes are planned by Antonion Telo and Jose Alvares, volumes on vehicles and artillery for example?

Hello Coconuts,
In Goa we were bombed by aircraft and naval gunfire almost at point blank!And any defensive oposition was merely futile,but they were ordered to die in their stations,some did.
Imagine if your smaller Islands like Guernsey or Mann were closer to China or Russia and the fighting was on!
I assume the English would fight on,but with 5 other fronts who knows…plus Islands are hard to defend(Crete,Leros…the Falklands war was different).
Goa is still very reminiscent of Portugal(as indeed Damao and Dio)people dont speak the language but some do consider themselves part Portuguese,they dance the old Portuguese Folk songs,they are Catholic,the Architecture,food,etc.
We have an old relic from Goa I think 1500 Century,a wooden Santo António figure with Budist ears,eyes etc,fantastic example of inter culture exchange.

1974 was a disaster year.
Europe lost again I guess the war continued,till the mid nineties,amazing right,although war is over it is still a long was to recovery.
I mean who would know?We did!
There were red agents from all over Cuba,China,USSR,Vietnam etc.still the war was won almost everywhere but Guiné was a bit shaky.
The revolution here was a strange event,if we had have any help who knows we could still have a chance.
Independence was only a matter of time of course,progressive,democratic ways to help them find the way to their own development not this mess.Even Holland sent things to the rebels,it was the seventies and everyone was a hippie,that was the big mistake people´s minds were int red revolutions not thinking of the misery and poverty resulting from them.
Spain was better you see,they had a smooth turn to democracy and it was great no revolutions there!

I bought am Osprey book about Irak 1941 who knows?
The ranges will include many Italians,Foglore paras,Bresaglieri,etc.
Vehicles are slow because it is a big scale details must be there although they are wargame models they will have good quality and no blocks of resin will be used.I mean that nonsense of having a block of resin for a vehicle is right out!Rather have a 4 part vehicle-turret,body,2 tracks.
Meyer is from Fox minis,quite good stuff but never went commercial…dont know why but people complaint a lot!
It is very good quality but I recon directed more to model making than wargame.
As to the book they were planning one more with vehicles but I did not see it here in book stores.I will inquire on them as it must be great too.

Did you knew that there was a lot of shooting on the 1974?
It is a hidden part of our history,in the farms and factories under siege and some overrun and taken by the revolutionaries,there is very little information on this but sometimes the farm workers organized as raiding gangs were helped (when it was worth it)by men of the army,and agents/commissars.
This took place mostly in the Alentejo plains where farm workers had a really hard life so were really ready for action,but also in the factories further north.
My grand father was forced out of his factory(in the family for generations) at gun point to the head and never really recovered from this unfair treason,a very big structure in Lisbon.
The farm owners were lucky because after some 20 years,farms were recovered along with compensation sometimes.

I worked in Portugal for 2 months, a few years ago. The company was in Palmela, and I was living in Lisboa and drove that toll road over the bridge every day. I did a lot of sightseeing when I was there, but wanted to stay longer. It's an absolutely beautiful place and the people were wonderful. I'd like to go back some day, but take my family this time.

I wish I would have known how to find the wargamers in town. I could have played a few games while I was there.

Thanks!I live on the suburbia,north of Lisbon the Estoril Costa do Sol,Cascais,it is just out of the city about 20min.drive also a very nice place loads of great beaches etc.
Palmela has also great beaches near the Caparica coast…but ours are better!
At present we only have 2 wargames stores/clubs…but a giant one is to open this August 5min.from my house!
I am going to have a project of inviting gamers over for competitions,to go with my brand wargames48.blogspot.com my uncles toy museum in Sintra,and perhaps with a turist package to make it easier and worth the trip for you guys!
You should come with your family it is a great place for family trips…in my day there was a lot of night life 80s-90s but things are quieter now somehow.
Sintra is world heritage and just out of this world amazing,Estoril and Cascais are also great.
Where did you visit out here,and what scale and period you play in?
Cheers
Gui

LUSITANUS,
I've only just checked back in on this topic, sorry for the delay in replying. I was amazed at how the thread went on!

The reason for my question was to perhaps include Portuguese in a fictional Australian Civil War setting in the early 30's. It isn't jumping on the British Civil War of the late 30's, now in fashion (and good on them, whom play it), but a long-held idea of mine.

In 1932 there was a large anti-government movement in NSW mainly, have a Google of 'the new Guard NSW' & you'll find the info. Argueably, it is more likely than the BCW!

I did a search for facist governments that may intervene, and Portugal came up as suitable because of early exploration (so claims to land) and proximity (Timor).

So the uniforms can be anything as it is fictional, but I was trying to base it as closely to the actual ones as possible.

Hello Iceaxe!
Dont forget we had a very particular regime it was totalitarian yes but,really diplomatic with the rest of the world,and so absolutely different from all the others at the time.
What would be the Portuguese expeditionary force look like?
Possibly what I have already described,for helmets there are many options depending on the year of course.
Actually WW1 uniforms with a special bush hat would be close to realistic given the tropical scenario.
The light sand to khaki shades will be also a good option.
If the action takes place also in Timor you can field many tribes for both sides.

Thanks. And nothing meant by the political inferences, either! It's not real history & I'm stretching what we have as it is, to make a game.

I know it is only for gaming purposes so I was just conveying we had a milder regime than most!
I think it is a fantastic idea to have what if scenarios,what would be our troops objective in your game?
And out of curiosity dont forget we would have Timorese and Macaense troops in our ranks with the Portuguese.

I hadn't thought of Timor/Macanese troops as well, great idea.

I was just looking for a chance to include some different troop types. Australia was settled by England but was discovered by France around the same time as them, and by the Dutch and Portugeuse well before those two. Plus anyone else that made it here – Ancient Egyptians were that last claim I heard!

So all could take advantage of a civil war/unrest to claim a part of the country that they missed out on.

So objectives would be invading as a land grab, or assisting a local faction to gain minerals, settlement land as a reward.

Ok I see,it would be probably correct in terms of fiction of course to have the Portuguese fighting the Dutch.
AS you know all the Dutch almost ever did was to take advantage of our week points as the Portuguese empire was enlarged more and more and so garrisons were weak sometimes and they would attack.
Usually Lisbon would send reinforcements wars were fought and won by Portugal in the South American (Brazil) colonies,further East in the Portuguese Indies – and colonies in India:Goa Damão and Dio,Macau,Timor it was more difficult to assist so Timor was somehow weaker than the other territories only lost to India in 1961,Macau in 1999 the last Chinese colonial territory,and Timor 1998 If I remember correctly,the diplomatic arrangements were signed really late in the last century or even this new one!
So Dutch vs Portuguese is more likely to be a good fictional scenario we would never turn against the English as we have an old alliance with them,the oldest in the world actually.
But England has been a bitter friend sometimes.

Correction!Timor was only made an independent democracy later than Macau so around 2005,although it was invaded by Indonésia it was still a Portuguese administrated territory, the UN and Portugal then made a huge diplomatic effort to grant Timorese independence.