"Confederate Zoaves" Topic

Hello,

i found the uniforms for Louisiana tigers. If i guess well there are several regiments with similar uniforms but little differences (little for 15 mm)

But are there other Conf. Zouaves? are there illustrations on the net?

thx

"But are there other Conf. Zouaves? are there illustrations on the net?"

link

Google is indeed your friend!

Yes and no lol not much there

Try bigcountry.de/index.htm – scroll towards the bottom and also see the next page. Text is in German.

What an unusual site. I did not think there was that much interest in the ACW from Germany.
VR
James Mattes

yes very good site, better than most US sites i read

You would be surprised sometimes :

In Brussels :

Confederate Museum

Address:
Rue de la Charrette 40
1200 Woluwe-Saint-Lambert – Map
Phone: +32 / (0)2 / 762.82.80
Fax: +32 / (0)2 / 762.82.80
E-mail: daniel.frankignoul@chello.be
Open: by appointment. Conference on the second Saturday of each month

Closed: from December 25 tot January 1
Price: free admission

Visits: upon reservation at +32 / (0)2 / 762.82.80

Services: library, documentation centre
Facilities: accessible to disabled persons – parking facilities
Accessibility: metro: Roodebeek or Tomberg; bus: 27, 29, 80

Collection: Bureau of documentation and research on the history of the United States of America at the 19th century, and especially on the War of Secession (1861-1865).
Description: This small museum illustrates the American War of Secession and its implications in Europe and Belgium, during Leopold I's era in particular, through different objects and documents: testimonies of popular, social, economic and military life of the era, old photographs, documents of postal history, arms and equipment pieces, and relics discovered during archeological excavations on American battlefields.

It is not surprising to see interest in the ACW in Germany given that so many Germans fpught in the war. There should have been lots of letters going back home. Also there has always been a great interest in the "American West" in Germany and there are a number of "Cowboy" parks there as well as some German language western movies. Agree it is a good site.

I only know of two Confederate units that wore zoauve uniforms: The Louisiana Tigers (aka 1st Special Battalion, or Wheat's Battalion) and the 1st Lousiana Battalion (I believe it was called), which wore a more conventional zouave uniform, with blue jackets and red pants (and light blue sashes, IIRC). Both were in Lee's army. There might well have been others in the western armies.

Wheats Tigers should be shown with navy blue jackets with red trim, rank stripes at the cuff. The light brown or tan jackets came after Stonewalls order following the First Manassas that no one in ANV was to wear federal blue in their uniform. I found that a dark medium blue works well for the stripes on the pants because it better depicts the color of the bed ticking their pants were made of. A very thin line between the wide stripes is a good representation. Navy blue tassel on a red fez or a straw hat can be used. Coppens would be the same except the pants would be red. White gaiters with brown boots were worn,and all leather was to be black.

WHOAAAAAA!!!STOPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!! First off we have to look at the Confederate States Zouaves as a whole.

Wheats Zouaves where but a company of men. Nothing to write home about.

When a Tiger was unearthed several years ago his jacket was in a very well preserved condition. And it was dark blue. There are NO brown grey green pink purple or so forth in any jackets of Wheats Zouaves.

As for Coppens Battalion it was really two Battalions. One was captured at Vicksburg and that was carried on Official rolls as the 2nd Battalion Confederate States Zouaves. The first was Coppens up to the time he was removed from the 1st Battalion and reassigned as Col of a Florida regiment. The 1st and 2nd Battalion of the regiment both dressed alike. Enoch Perry (painter for the Confederate Congress and Jefferson Davis) did a water color (which I have a copy of) of a 2nd Battalion man at Vicksburg. The Battalions lost it's designation Coppens when it was taken into Confederate Service as Regulars in November of 62. Coppens was Courtsmartialed earlier in the year and removed as Col of the regiment for two reasons. 1. AWOL back to La. for political gains and 2. Distrust of command within the regiment itself. (all this can be found in the NA)

Uniform- 1861 to 1863 Red fez with medium blue tassel.
Dark Blue jacket with yellow trefoils and wings on back and trim around coat and points on sleve. (not solid points but stripes)

Pantaloons are of red. (there is still a question as to a blue stripe running the leg but er on the side of doubt and do without them)

gaiters are white with the Jambiares of a medium color brown. These started out as a light brown but oil and wear made them a medium brown.

All accourterments are black. Packs where not issued to the battalions so pickups would the the call for the day. A wonderful picutre taken at Fort Monroe show some captured with men of the 5th NY standing guard on them.

I have in my collection some orginial unpublished photos of the Zouaves at Penacola Navy yard. (not the ones you normaly see) By the way the short officers standing the is DeBordenave and the tall lanky one is Alfred Coppens and not Gaston.

All in all there where no real zouaves other than the men of the 1st Regiment Confederate States Zouaves. Like the 5th NY of the Federal Service they where the only ones to adhere to the orginial zouave uniform (Coppens Imperial Gurad, 5th Line regiment) All the other in someway had changed up the uniforms.

I will be putting out a good article in Charge within the year on Coppens and just what happened to them along the way. But I am in negotiations with a magazine now on this article so it may be awhile before it is posted.

Also I am working with DT on a collabration of Coppens and the 5th at Williamsburg if we can find more information on the picture involing the capture of them. I recieved that picture from a good friend Brian Pohanka years ago abut Brian has passed from us due to cancer.

I remain your servant
Peter

I also checked out the German site and most of those prints are so WRONG and done over 40 years ago before we had the research abilites we have today. Some are of English perception of our war which is mostly wrong in the uniform field.

I will say to all to avoid most European concepts of our uniforms on the ACW. Most are taken or made up from sources 40 years ago. We have plenty of information here through our board and contacts to help anyone out. Now I know some think of me as arrogant but it is a strong passion that I have towards the men of my family who fought that war. I wan them honored and not dishonored. So I fight for that one bastion that I do have knowledge of.

Peter

As Peter noted, while there were companies of zouaves in Confederate service, whole regiments (or, every so often, whole brigades) in zouave uniform – as happened in the Union army – hardly happened at all in the South

Not, of course, that that stopped me from painting up my Louisiana Tigers all in brown jackets, fezes and boaters and striped pants – they just look too good not to

Obi Wan, I will bow to the Zouave Zen Master. Peter over all I am well aware that your research goes way beyond the knowledge that I have on just my unit. When the book comes out, I still want a first edition autograhed copy. And this is just my opinion, we are somrthing to write home about. Have a good day. TIG

YES LUKE USE THE FORSE!!! LOL No problems on that. Right now I am running into a problem with a south Carolina zouave unit and a south carolina highland unit also. What what I am finding they are both at company level and the zouaves where at Fort Sumpter but all I can find is they where in a grey uniform with red trim.

Here is another one guys!!!! Les Jensen and I did some research on a Confederate Chassuer unit that fought at 7 days but was torn up to the point that it was obsorbed into Coppens.

BROWN JACKETS!!!!!!!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!

Please stop and think first. It is like putting a British 1812 line in a dark blue coatee. Please dont disgrace Wheats like that!!!!!

Peter, never will again. Sorry about that chief. I will off until Tues. a.m. but what do you think of a thread on "How authentic are ACW Zouave reenactors?. It would probably bring more comments than the 60 we were part of a few weeks ago.

Did I already go there Tiger? I will check it out.

One last note on the 1st CSZ. The 1st Battalion ordered new uniforms in the winter of 62-63 since they where being assigned to the Confederate Presidents home as guards. But the order got sidetracked and the uniforms where sent to the troops in the West. This is when Enoch Perry did the painting (I have a copy) of the zouave at rest. So it is plausible that the uniform was still being worn at vicksburg for there is a notation of a mounted confederate zouave company patrolling vicksburg in 63.

Peter

Peter, thank you for your information on the usage of Zouave uniforms at Vicksburg. It's greatly appreciated.

However, some evidence exists for another ANV Confederate unit wearing a Zouave uniform as late as 25 June 1862. On page 186 of Sears, "To the Gates of Richmond", is found the following description of a charge by Wright's Brigade of Huger's Division:

"One of these charges, by a Georgia regiment, momentarily confused the Yankees into thinking they were being attacked by their own men. The Georgians were wearing gaudy red Zouave uniforms, in imitation of the famous French colonial troops, and it was thought only the Army of the Potomac had any Zouaves in its ranks. Then someone pointed out that only the enemy would be coming at them from the direction of Richmond, and the Federals quickly opened fire on the Zouaves"

It would seem some type of Zouaves were present, but the identification of these troops as Georgians is questionable. At the time Wright's Brigade consisted of the 44th Alabama, 3rd Georgia, 4th Georgia, 22nd Georgia and 1st Louisiana. According to Todd, "American Military Equipage, 1851-1872", pp. 851, 855, the 1st Louisiana Infantry included elements of the Orleans Light Guards Battalion. This pre-war militia unit in turn is described as wearing "Zouave clothing".

It is therefore possible that at least part of the 1st Louisiana wore some type of Zouave uniform as late as the Seven Days Battles in 1862.

Ryan Toews

That would probly have been a company of zouaves known as the AVEGNO Company of Zouaves. These troops where absorded into the 1st battalion as was the 1st Regiment Confederate Chassuers after the seven days. Coppens was also asked if he would accept Wheats company also but he flat turned them down. The Avegno Zouaves wore a very similar uniform as coppens but was trimmed in red. Remember though it was only one company

Peter

Sorry but I made a error here. It was not the AVEGNO's for they where consoldated into the 2nd battalion. I am doing some indepth research on this now

Try this one:

link

There was a company of Zouaves attached to Hamptons Legion at the start of the 2nd Manassas campaign as well.

Was there not?

The rest of the Legion had just been given a new uniform of "brown coat, blue pants with yellow stripe, and black felt hat" but I'm assuming the Zouave campany retained what was left of their uniform (which I believe was grey coat with blue trim and yellow Pantaloons, red hat??).

In the system I play, that will give a very interesting regiment of 16 figs wearing brown frock coat, blue pants, and black felt hat, plus a base of 4 additional figs of Zouaves attached.

Not bad considering they are part of the Texas brigade, just to top it all off!

That's my plan anyway. Let me know if I am off base?

Sorry but I made a error here. It was not the AVEGNO's for they where consoldated into the 2nd battalion. I am doing some indepth research on this now. I did find in the or's though it stated three companies where ordered for the battalion but only one made it to zouave uniforms at the time of enlistment the others coming in grey. This may have been one of those units that consisted of several companies. Also noted in a article that was written in a southern heritage rag it stated that the battalion was later joined by the Chassuers which we know for a fact the chassuers where with the ANV and was consolidated with Coppens battalion. I believe that it was Coppens that was being spoken about. But I will go further as I look into this

Peter

Peter, could you give a description or post a picture of what is a true zouave uniform? Does it include a turban with that pointy thing comiong out the top ? TIG

Tigger that just broke me up!!! LOL!! Don T did one sometime ago and I will see if I can dig that one up. Okay now I need your help here.

I dont know how to post a picture

Peter

If I knew I would tell you, but I don't have a clue either. It's time for someone else to jump in here and we both can learn. I don't have the equipment to do it. I think you need a flat screen scanner to start.

>> Sorry but I made a error here. It was not the AVEGNO's for they where consoldated into the 2nd battalion <<

Wasn't the Governor's Guards also called the Avengo Zouaves?? I believe they were composed of 6 companies and made up the bulk of the 13th Louisiana Infantry. The other companies were Irish, well at least two of them (Southern Celts and St. Mary Volunteers).

Posting a picture. Depends on whether the picture is in a digital format (ie a file on your computer) or a physical image in a book or photo/icture. If you are talking about a physical picture you can either use a scanner and scan the picture or you can use a digital camera and take a photo of it. If the later best to do it outside in shady area or well lit inside area with no flash. I don't beleive TMP allows embedding of pictures so once you have the digital file the easiest way to go is to go to an image site eg.photobucket,
photobucket.com
set up a free account. Upload the image and then just post the web link. ope that helps
Daniel

Yes as a matter of fact you are right to a point. The Governors guard thing was for more show and smell than anything else. Also records in the archives show only two of the companies in full zouave uniform and the rest in grey. Which unlike coppens all where uniformed as such but did not recieve all the uniforms until Pensacola. I have a few unpublished photos of coppens that can not be published for right now.

As for the zouave uniform go to this site coppenszouaves.com and look at the first sgt. He is in the proper uniform of the battalion as are most of the enlisted men. The officer and the ones in the kepis are FARBS and I mean big FARBS!!!!! That unit I formed and was high jacked by the officer clown at the right. Also his uniform is one he made up and is nothing like the orginials of the units. My ancestor commanded Coppens latter in the war and I have had my hands on his orginial uniform in the the family possesions. The one I wore when commanding and forming the unit was like his. Also take the history with a grain of salt also. Lee Wallace is a good friend of mine and he wrote that piece over 30 years ago and since then I have uncovered more on the unit than you can shake a stick at. They just put his article there without his knowledge. And of course they did not do any research and just made things up as they went along as you can well tell. But Rob (the first sgt) was my top and he is right on the money. I made the leather leggings he is wearing also. What he is lacking is the yellow trefoils on the pocket area of the pantaloons.

Peter, how proper is the Viv uniform? It looks kind of tacky, even if it is correct. Our Vivs with pistol and sword look much better. TIG

The coppens uniform is right on the money. The orginial photo was taken at Pensecola Navy yard and she is one of the few that is documented as to the dress. Her colors are exactly as they should be. Coppens was no yahoo unit and was very profestional in it's dress and training. The whole battalion was given orders in french in the beginning. Most of the staff had military training and a background. But we have proven today that Coppens or his brother never saw any action at all. He is not even listed as a Grad of the French West Point as he claimed to Jefferson Davis. We can find no informaiton on his military service. But DeBordenauve and several others including the Austrian on staff did. I think this was one of the rubs that caused Coppens to be relieved from his command by Lee and transfered to command the 8th Florida. His brother took over but was inept at it also and finaly DeB was given the command and the unit fought the rest of the war under him and as a Regular Confederate unit. The unti never surrendered at Appomatox as claimed but was disbanded on Jan 18 1865

Did Coppens 1st Bn see any combat? Any large, named battles? I don't know anything about them other than what's in the Troiani books and this forum. Cool stuff though.

Yes as a matter of fact. Williamsburg, Seven Days, Sharpsburg, Fredricksburg,Suffolk,Hicksford. Many small skirmishes inbetween

Great thread gentlemen, very informative

hussarbob1746.webs.com

As a new member just want to say hello and post a good link i found while doing some research for my 10mm Louisiana Tigers, hope it helps.
link

Hello happy painter,

One thing to remember is that most zoo zoo's in confederate service where absorbed into other regiments. Like the Tiger company. I believe these went to the 14th if not mistaken after the battalion was broken up. Since it was a company it was not hard to fill in the ranks of the unit with those. In the Die Hards by Don T you will see a couple of the Tigers there still wearing the straw hats.

Happy Painter you will find that there are people who love zouaves and people who really hate us. If you stick around some of these threads get very interesting. Glad you picked the Tigers for your zouaves we are a buch of characters. Peter- Have you ever read or seen anything about Tigers with their hats pinned up on one side with a pelican pin? That would be straw hats. I ran in to these Tigers from Cleveland last year and all of their head gear was like that. They said that was from the latest information on the Tigers from a Tiger expert in Califoria. They didn't like that some of us had red bandanas on our heads, me included. The bandanas come from Allison Moores book on Wheat. We don't wear them in battle, only around camp and walking around. I thought as Tigers we should all go on the field together but they refused. I was going to say something nasty about them, but that would put me in their catagory. Better to take the high road. All of you have a good day and remember "ZOUAVE ATTITUDE"-TIG

Never have I run across any informaton on the tiger company wearing the hat pinned up. But then you never say never in this field either. All it takes is a misplaced oomment from a reporter at the time or a rare picture and it means everyone should do it. So to be honest I would stay away from it. I would like to see some documentation on it though.
Dont worry on the bandannas for that is an old La custom for working details. I would stay away from all those pins also. Alot that the sutlers sell where just odds and ends.

It is like the masonic emblems. Our craft was still a secret one and you did not display the crafts emblems. I just had a new Starbuck Kepi made and Greg quilted a compass and level inside of my kepi in the top. I noticed that Gen. J. Chamberlins kepi was done the same way.

Peter

Did you know that here in Belgium, zouave means (after the wars) "strange guy", a person that is different. i use that word a lot.