"British, Dutch, French, & Spanish Marines in the Caribbean?" Topic

I'm still trying to narrow down interests for the periods from 1650 – 1815 in the Caribbean, for naval, amphibious, and land actions there.

Any info you can provide in terms of on-line references, and or books on uniforms and hats for the troops involved will be greatly appreciated.

Of course, if you can answer any questions easily here, that would be greatly appreciated as well.

Sadly, my history classes provided little info on uniforms of the various nations involved in the Caribbean during this time. Yes, I know the British wore redcoats at one time, but couldn't tell you when that started, and/or ended, or what the troops of other nations wore. They also didn't go into details on differences between the British infantry, and marines, or what types of hats they wore.

Did the British, Dutch, French, and Spanish have marines during the following periods, in their own unique uniforms and hats, or were they essentially just infantry that served on board vessels, and used boats for amphibious assaults?

The logical period breaks, in terms of uniforms and actions in the region seem to be from around (feel free to correct that, if necessary):

1650 – 1690

1690 – 1720

mid-1700's

late-1700's – American War of Independence

1790-1815 – Napoleonic era

Other than colors, were the uniforms of the countries involved pretty much interchangable, as far as style goes (in terms of 15mm scale figures – not worried who has the most buttons)?

Did the marines (if that nation actually fielded any) look the same as their infantry, or were their uniforms/hats different?

What colors would be appropriate for the various uniforms of the nations listed?

From some of the figures I have seen on-line, it appears that the mitre and the tricorne hats were used by the British, and later the bicorne, round hats, etc.

Is there a rough guide for when these changes took place?

Did some of the troops in the same unit wear mixed types of hats, e.g. tricorne and bicorne (officers perhaps for the latter)?

When did bicornes become fashionable/reguired, and the tricornes dropped?

Did all of the nations listed change at about the same time, or were their differences to make their troops distinctive from one another, in addition to uniform color differences?

I've essentially jumped off the plank, into the deep blue sea of the Caribbean, and am floudering, so could use a life-line.

My previous interests have been primarily limited to the medieval and renaissance periods, and to the 20th century, so as you can see, I am lost at sea.

Top Gun Ace,

As far as hats are concerned the true tricorne, with all three sides almost equal, became fashionable at about 1700, more ore less. This remained the style until the 1740s when the front point began to be made a little smaller, and this continued till the front point became almost flat during the latter 1780s. I think the true bicorne came into use during the 1790s.

Hope this helps.

V/R

Joe

Here's a 1717 Spanish marine corporal:
link

And a Spanish naval gunner:
link

Top Gun Ace:

Your questions are so broad, and cover such a wide range of both history and countries it is kind of hard to answer in a post here. Perhaps you need to focus your interest first then ask more specific questiions.

You need to focus on a specific period – Golden Age of Piracy, SYW, AWI, or Nappy – then come back and I think people will be more willing to help you with your quest.

I liken it to re-enacting. Pick the period you really like and go from there. If you pick SYW, or AWI, I'll be happy to help you with some specific British questions. :-)

British marines for much of the 18th century wore a mitre type hat of soft cloth. At first the Marine regiments were under army control, which posed all sorts of problems since the regiments were broken up to serve on board ships.

Here's a British Marine sample:
link

Gentlemen:

You just made my point (if I didn't). British marine uniforms were all over the place during the time periods under question. You haven't even scratched the surface. Our top gun here needs to figure out what period he is really interested in before anyone can be of any real help. Point in case – British marine facings and uniforms were completely different during just one of the periods he inquired about – 1790 to 1815 – having at least two different looks, if not more, during that 25 year period. Just think how clothing has changed in the last 25 years and you'll understand.

Happy to help, but more narrow focus is needed, or buy some Osprey books as a start. :-)

I realize now that I will need to narrow down the periods a bit, since they changed significantly in some cases, fairly often. I was hoping that wasn't the case, and I could use something like red coats for the English, White/Gray for the Spanish, not sure on the Dutch, or French, etc.

How about two periods, e.g. the 1700 – 1720 period (1720 if you need a specific date), and the Napoleonic War (not sure which period for the latter).

Generalizations will be fine, since the battles may be fought out over a variety of areas, and years, e.g. British in red coats, Spanish in gray/white coats, French in apparently white coats with blue cuffs, stockings, and clothing, etc.

From the research I have done, and info some of you have provided, I have found the following:

1688 – 1750/1760 – French seem to be as above for a considerable period.

1718 – 1730 – French Marine with black Tricorne((?) – hard to tell from the small image. Possibly navy blue?) with gold trim. Blue clothing and stockings, shirt with white collar, white topcoat with large blue cuffs.

1717 – Spanish Marine seen in a light yellow, or buff colored coat, with blue pants and red stockings to above the knees. Couldn't see the shirt/waist coat color, since the topcoat was buttoned up in the pic. Black Tricorne with gold trim.

1761 – Royal Dutch Marines – light gray/white uniforms. What appears to be a burgundy colored topcoat, with yellow facings and cuffs, black stockings, and Navy Blue (?) tricornes/bicornes (could be black – hard to tell from the small image).

1739 – 1748 – RN Marines – Red coats and pants, Mitre caps (color?), facing colors by regiment. Didn't find a reference to the 1720 period.

1685 – 1699 – RN Marines – dark blue, crimson, or red coats. No other details provided.

Are the Osprey books for the periods accurate? I know that in many cases, for other periods, they have proved to be less so.

Are there any decent references that cover uniforms of the various nations, from 1700 – 1800, especially the marines, in one book?

Thanks for your assistance.

Sincerely,

Rob

here are a few generalizations I use

The armada/drake era had no formal standard uniforms. Soldiers wore armor, officers wore great coats often tailored to personal taste

By the golden age of piracy amour was passe, Uniforms were starting to show up, although uniforms were localized to the Governor or Lord to which they served by and large The tricorn was beginning to come into fashion. The royal navy was not as organized as it was later and did not have a real constant standard for uniforms. that said the blue coat and white pants look was certainly common for royal navy officers. I feel there is a lot of liberty in the looks of this period unless you know of a specific look for a specific situation

by the American revolution The royal navy has started to standardize uniforms although seamen did not yet have a formal uniform. both bicorns and tricorns were popular. The royal marines looked like your standard redcoats with some minor differences. The marines wore tricorns by and large.

The early US navy's uniforms were irregular and often mirrored European styles. John Paul Jones was one of the first to wear epaulets, and also had two or three different uniforms based on blue coat with red trim.

British uniforms shifted in minor ways during the Napoleonic wars. The Chapeau de Bras became popular and the royal navy adopted it. Marines changed hat styles to a brimmed hat with a tall red and white plume

By the war of 1812 the British had a fairly standard marine look, and the royal navy had uniforms for all ranks including a fairly common seaman look.

The problem with osprey books is that they can never capture the full situation for any specific battle. For example At fort miegs there is a uniform for a militiaman in US service who's coat was bright red! For many sea battles we don't have any readily available information for specific units

"Are there any decent references that cover uniforms of the various nations, from 1700 – 1800, especially the marines, in one book?"

The short, and long answer is, no. :-(

"How about two periods, e.g. the 1700 – 1720 period (1720 if you need a specific date), and the Napoleonic War (not sure which period for the latter)."

Ignoring for the minute that all your subsequent listings are out of this stated time period (do you have ADD?), and assuming that the RN Marines stands for the British Marines –

Between1713 and 1739 there were four"Invalid Companies" of marines carried on the army list, but in fact, there were no British marines at all during this time period.

Since 1664, marine forces had been shrouded in ambiguity. In a remarkable two day debate on the 27th and 28th of November 1739, Parliament went a long way in raising the cloud of doubt, which always seemed to hang about the marines.

On the 15th of November, George II had asked Parliament to speedily provide him with, "a body of marines." As a result, 10 new regiments were raised, but they did not really see action until 1741. The marines so long service and were practically decimated while serving in America and India. It was not until 1755 tht the marines were finally placed under the Admiralty and 5,000 were raised for the coming war.

I am looking at a black and white photo of a Marine from 1707 – Fox's Marines. He wears a red coat with cloth mitre cap, high leggings. I can't tell the color of the facings, nor see the breeches under the long volumious red coat. A B&W photo of a period painting of a 1742 Sixth Regiment of Marines is also hard to judge. Mitre cap, some sort of colored cuffs, white gaiters, large baggy red coat. The British Marines of 1755 wore white facings with lace, gold for officers.

Nappy period – Marines wore white facings till 1802 when they were granted the title of Royal, switching to blue facings.

Here is a link to a very good unit for 1812, advised by Jim Kochan on their uniforms:

link

Here is one for Rev War, with some history attached as well:

link

"by the American revolution The royal navy has started to standardize uniforms although seamen did not yet have a formal uniform. both bicorns and tricorns were popular."

Bicorne hats did not come into fashion unitl the 1790's or so. Tricorn hats had gone out of fashion by the late 1760's to be replaced by the cocked hat, though marines at Halifax in 1776 were reported to have gone into round hats and trousers (overalls).

"The royal marines looked like your standard redcoats with some minor differences. The marines wore tricorns by and large."

Marines were not made Royal till April of 1802, thus they wore the standard Admiralty white facings. The standard issue hat of the period was the cocked hat, though marines during the Rev War had both light and grenadier companies as well. See earlier reference to round hats a Halifax in 1776. The kit largely was the same as the army (same contractors), with small exceptions like buttons and belt plates with anchors or fouled anchors. The were one of the first British military units to wear the white cross belts (as early as 1772), while the army still wore their bayonet belt around their waist, till campaign wear saw this change in 1776/77 to over the shoulder.

"The early US navy's uniforms were irregular and often mirrored European styles. John Paul Jones was one of the first to wear epaulets, and also had two or three different uniforms based on blue coat with red trim."

Since the US Navy was new, anything their officers wore were new to them, but epaulettes first start appearing in British army fashion in the late 1760's and were codified in the 1768 Royal Clothing warrant. No doubt American naval uniforms were influenced by British fashion, along with many of the French Lottery coats the enlisted men received. IIRC correctly, Jones had a contingent of French Marines on board one of his ships at one time too, and I want to say they wore red, oddly enough. But I could be wrong on that point as I don't recall French Marines or Naval Infantry of the period in red coats.

"1685 – 1699 – RN Marines – dark blue, crimson, or red coats. No other details provided."

In 1685 the Maritime regiment was given to Prince George of Denmark, husband of Princess Anne. The Prince changed the uniform (he didn't like them) in 1686 to a red coat with yellow facings, dark grey breeches, and white stockings. Other than this, they were little used.

In 1688 William III suspicious of the regiment with ties to the exiled James II disbanded the regiment. In 1690 William III raised two new marine regiments, designated them the 1st and 2nd Marines, and they wore blue uniforms with white facings, and a grenadier cap, though reportedly very few actually wore this uniform as most dressed as normal seamen. Following the subsequent war, in October of 1697 the 1st and 2nd Marines were reorganized and merged with battalions from regiments of Colonels Colt, Seymour and Mordaunt, and command of the new Marine regiment (around 3,100 men) was given to Col. Thomas Brudenall. But in May of 1699 orders were received to disband the marines entirely.

In 1702 Queen Anne called for the formation of six Marine regiments to fight a renewed war against France and Spain.

I could go on, but you get the picture. They come and they go. :-)

Thanks for the info everyone.

I really appreciate it.

No ADD, just the info I was able to find, which wasn't for the main periods I am looking for – naturally.

However, I am flexible on dates/periods, thus far.

History gamer your info is awesome . . . far more deep then my sweeping generalizations typed up at work between calls :)

I wish there was a standardized reference for naval costumes. I have a few but the info is minimalistic compared to what I'd like.

I do the best i can to try and collect all this info whether or not it fits my loose paradigms.

I do have a question you might know (hopes)

French marines (or their equivalent) from say 1800 to the end of the Napoleonic wars. Any info on uniforms, colors etc?

speaking of painting period minis check out the 15MM figs in this diorama!

link

"French marines (or their equivalent) from say 1800 to the end of the Napoleonic wars. Any info on uniforms, colors etc?"

I'd love to help, but not my period or nation of interst. Let me email a friend who might know.

Sorry about the ADD joke. Hope you took it as the jest it was intended. :-)

Very impressive diorama.

Bcarnes, Naps is my main period, but I dont have specific info. There where no french marines as such, just regular infantry that was stationed on ships. As far as I have ever found, they did not have a specific uniform, but that may be in error.

There was an organization called the Marins. But, that does not translate into marines, but rather into mariners, or sailors. They had a different uniform when they sevred on land, particularly in the Imperial Guard. I dont think that is what you are looking for, as they always served with the main army, not back on ships.

Owen

so if i were to outfit my french frigate with sharpshooters, they would be dressed like standard foot infantry most likely?

Is there a pic you could point me to that would be typical of the right "look"

My game is fairly loose in it's historical period and is in a sense more about the ships, but I'd like to keep it authentic as much as i can, and we are crewing up the ships and were not sure how to represent french sharpshooters or the equivalent of marines.

I often use Toby's sea eagles line of minis for 15MM. We had considered trying to mod his 15MM US marines to serve as "french marines" but were unable to locate any cut and dry info to use

hmm wiki turned me on to Corps royal de canonniers-matelots, an attempt to create sailor soldiers . . .

which led my to this:

link

I think i need this book!

the back cover does make my us marine to french sharpshooter conversion seem possible

Or just use french line infantry, just be sure tyou get them from 1805 or earlier.

But if you like doing conversuions, just go with that of course.

And dont worry to much, the uniforms of the Napoleonic era are a mass of confusion, particularly as most of them had 2-3 major changes during the course of the wars.

If you get the osprey, just look at the plates, and find the look you want. Then search the minis in pictures, dont woryy about who they are. When you find a set that matches your expectations, go with that.

A number of uniforms can be used for different countrys at different times, with only minor details being different. Of course the purists will scream, but most of us dont really care how many buttons where on a given cuff.

And the soldiers and sailors of the period didnt care that much either. Often uniform regs changed, but the uniforms themselves did not appear for some time, often years, after the changes where supposed to happen.

Army officers would buy special gear to make thier formations llok cooler, or at least a few specialist troops. I suspect that happened on ships as well, but dont know for sure.

Anyway, good luck and have fun with it.

"Army officers would buy special gear to make thier formations llok cooler, or at least a few specialist troops. I suspect that happened on ships as well, but dont know for sure."

I can't speak to the Nappy period, but in AWI marines wore older coats or slops on board ship when not on duty to preserve their dress, or newer uniform. I am not aware of any officers (army or marines) purchasing anything special for their men beyond their basic kit, as that was money out of the colonel's pocket, and most junior officers were not rich and could ill afford buying things for the men. I have no idea what the French did, so perhaps you are referign to them.

A common practice in French cav units was to purchase particularly fine hiorses to look more splendid on parade. ADCs often had very fancy uniforms to show the value of thier superior. Look at Murat, he was sometimes a one man fashion show himself, causeing Napolion at one tioem to compare him to a famous circus performer.

i have also read of Naval officers purchasing paint for the ship to make it look smarter, as well as buying particularly smart uniforms for thier personel boat crew to show off for the other captains, or at least to impress the Admirals.

In later days, Brit ships had men stand on top of the mast as they past either Malta or Gibralter, I cant remeber which, or perrhaps both. A practice that lead to not a few of them falling and dieing. Yet seamen kept doing it until it was officialy outlawed as it was a great point of pride for them. If it sounds like fiction, I read that in Robert K Massie "Dreadnaught". Out of this period, but a damned good book on the RN. As is "The Rules of the Game" by Gordon. As many of the traditions at the time of WWI where being formed at this period, both show where a lot of it lead.

Owen

UNIFORMOLOGY produces two books on the Spanish army during the American Revolution. They are Nos 8 and 25 and are packed with rare Bueno uniform plates including some of marines. Here is the link.

uniformology.com

historygamer: IIRC correctly, Jones had a contingent of French Marines on board one of his ships at one time too, and I want to say they wore red, oddly enough. But I could be wrong on that point as I don't recall French Marines or Naval Infantry of the period in red coats.

King Louis lent Jones a detachment from Regiment Walsh to serve as marines on Bonhomme Richard. Red coats with green facings.

There you go. Thought I remembered red coats. Thanks.

No french Marines after about 1800.
Toby has figure that I had done up, works as a representation of a french sea soldier(Marine).

Matelots de la garde – Marines of the Guard
but in English (matelot) translates to (sailor)
so ruffly (sea soldiers)

We use them with our rule set (Prevailing Winds) as Marines to represent the fact that the French did have trained soldiers onboard their ships.

For French sailors:
link
No real uniform before Napoleonic times (except for officers) yet fig.3 picture illustrates a reconstitution (a century later!) of the uniform a Capitain gave to his crew when King Louis XV visited his ship.
For Spain (navy troops, *not* sailors):
link