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"Pavlov Grenadier mitres 1812" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

seneffe31 Jan 2009 8:47 a.m. PST

The thread on 1805-7 Fusiliers got me thinking. For bravery in 1807, the Pavlov Grenadiers were allowed to retained their mitres. That much is well known. But at that period, only one third of the regiment (1Bn) wore the taller 'proper' Grenadier mitre- two thirds (2bns) would have worn the short Fusilier mitre.

By 1812, the organisation had changed with the each battalion of a regiment having three companies of Fusiliers and one company of true Grenadiers. Did the Fusilier companies still wear the short mitres in 1812 or did all companies wear the tall mitre? If so, was the regiment issued a lot of extra tall mitres to make all the companies look the same?
I've certainly never seen an illustration of any 1812 Pavlovs in the short mitre.

seneffe31 Jan 2009 8:55 a.m. PST

Sorry, I don't mean 'extra-tall' mitres- I mean additional supplies of tall mitres!

Defiant31 Jan 2009 9:06 a.m. PST

seneffe, I have often thought about the same question. Luckily my Pavolov's are only painted for 1805-07. But AB miniatures does cast 1812 Pavlov's which are very different from the 1805 Pavlov figure.

Maybe Anton will answer this also ?

seneffe31 Jan 2009 9:20 a.m. PST

Mine are 1812 AB. Not the ones relaesed a couple years ago, but conversions I made before they came out. 60 odd 1812 Grenadier bodies with swapped 1805 mitre heads, a very painstaking cutting, drilling, glueing, fingerdamaging process I would dread having to repeat!

Steven H Smith31 Jan 2009 9:29 a.m. PST

There is the curious painting by Peter Hess of the Battle of Kliastitsy (19/31 July 1812):

picture

Detail:

picture

Only the 2nd, or depot, battalion took part – sans the grenadier company. However, the painting clearly shows grenadier mitres.

I will try to locate the two detailed Russian regimental histories I have for this regiment.

raducci31 Jan 2009 2:59 p.m. PST

Steven was this Hess an eyewitness?
If so this suggests every Pavlov wore a grenadiers mitre.
Thank you and I would like to hear more of your conclusions on this matter.

Steven H Smith31 Jan 2009 3:23 p.m. PST

Rad,

No, Peter von Hess (Petr Gess), 29.vii.1792 (Düsseldorf) -4.iv.1871 (Munich), painted in the 1840s, by command of Tsar Nicholas I, twelve canvases illustrating different episodes of the Patriotic War of 1812. All of these canvases are presently in the Winter Palace, St. Petersburg, Russia.

For more of his work see

link

Steve

Steven H Smith31 Jan 2009 4:51 p.m. PST

"Thus, for example, Emperor Nicholas I ordered a series of paintings for the Winter Palace on the Patriotic War of 1812 from the German artist P. Hess. On the tsar's invitation, Hess traveled to Russia in 1839 to survey the battlefields of the 1812 campaign, and in the following years he produced twelve paintings depicting this campaign's important battles. These large multi-figure compositions, executed with professional mastery, were documentarily accurate and impressive, but were cold and devoid of patriotic spirit. P. Hess's best painting was "The French Crossing the Berezina." Another painting by this artist, painted in 1854 and now in our museum, is "The Battle of Losmin, 6 November 1812."

It is notable that not one of Hess's paintings except "The Battle of Borodino" shows M. I. Kutuzov, and even in this single painting his figure is barely visible in the background. …."

This is from an interesting article translated on my friend Mark Conrad's Web Page:

link

I recall an article in a Russian periodicle, perhaps "Tseikhgaus", concerning the uniforms in the Hess painting – just need to locate it in my storage area. Not an easy task! <:^{

Beersheba31 Jan 2009 4:59 p.m. PST

I see that he also has the Swiss in the Bardin Regulations uniform, which I do not know whether is correct at that point in time.

raducci01 Feb 2009 12:53 a.m. PST

ThankX Steven.
I dont mean to be pedantic though god knows this can be the place for it, but hes a secondary source then and not totally reliable?

Defiant01 Feb 2009 1:56 a.m. PST

Thx Steve,

Funny coincidence, I am painting 1812 Pavlov's right now for a friend to finish off his regiment. So this topic is of interest to me.

Wulfila01 Feb 2009 3:25 a.m. PST

MAA 18 page 34 has a contemporary French print of Russian grenadiers in Paris 1814-15. One is a Pavlov Guardsman wearing a fusilier mitre without a poompom. Hope hat helps.

AntonioK01 Feb 2009 4:16 a.m. PST

I red the report of the major-general Lavrov the commander of the second division in 1810 to the War ministry. Ñommander asked what to do with extra grenadier(tall) mitres in Pavlovski regiment after battalion reorganization that lead to the reduction of one grenadier company in regiment. The minister replied that after conversation with Czar about the subject he recommends (orders) that 3 grenadier companies of the regiment should wear grenadier mitres, the rest of the companies of fusiliers should have fusilier hats (smaller mitre version). In the beginning of 1811 War ministry asked to give extra tall mitres to commissariat. Therefore only one company in each Pavlovski battalion in 1812 had tall mitre headgears, 3 other companies in each battalion kept fusilier version. Officers of grenadier companies also wore tall version, it is also known that some officers in regiment used new kiwers.

Defiant01 Feb 2009 4:18 a.m. PST

Anton, don't you ever leave this site, we need you !!

AntonioK01 Feb 2009 4:59 a.m. PST

Well actually I got connected not long ago Shane. And if you want to see Pavlovski fusilier private in (small) mitre check out Martine manuscript. Soldier depicted with others allied grenadiers in Paris in 1815. No doubts that regiment used fusilier mitres.

Steven H Smith01 Feb 2009 8:40 a.m. PST

Soldats de l'Armée Russe Créée vers 1814-1815; planche 2 de la série "Armée des souverains Alliés, année 1814", Martinet (Editeur – Libraire), Paris, vers 1814-1815 De gauche à droite : grenadier de la Garde impériale russe en grande tenue, grenadier de la Garde impériale, tambour de la Garde impériale, grenadier troupe d'élite, soldat russe en négligé:

picture

Est-ce ça? Officiers et soldats Russes. Paris: H. Gautier, c. 1815. H. Gautier (publisher):

link

Troupes Russes, 1815. Garde impériale, Grenadier d'Elite
Description: Planche 5 du recueil "Troupes étrangères 1815"; planche n° 2 de la suite "Première suite, costumes militaires, Infanterie Russe" ; éditée par Genty

picture

Troupes Russes, 1815. Garde impériale, carabinier à pied
Description : planche n° 10 de la suite "Première suite, costumes militaires, Infanterie Russe" ; éditée par Genty:

picture

A Grenadier 1798. One of a series of 6 (of 20?) color engraved plates copied, with variations, apparently from "Abbildung der russisch Kaiserlichen Hilfstruppen welche im Monathe December 1798 in der Gegend von Brünn gelagert waren", published by Mollo, Vienna:

link

Kaiser – Russische Grenadiers Musquetiers und Jager welche den 3 u. 4. August 1799 durch Augsburg zogen. Augsburg: Fr. Thom Weber, 1799. Weber, Fr. Thomas (artist):

link

Casque de grenadier de la garde russe; Fabriqué entre 1763-1786:

picture
picture
picture
picture

Steven H Smith01 Feb 2009 8:50 a.m. PST

Russia. 1st Lieutenant, Pavlovsky Guards Regiment, 1813
c. 1816. 1st in suite of 4 unsigned original watercolors of uniform figures:

link

seneffe01 Feb 2009 8:51 a.m. PST

Wulfila- I'm not sure the fig on pg 34 of MAA185 is wearing a fusilier mitre- it looks to me more like an imperfect attempt to depict the grenadier version- an unfamiliar headress to Parisian artists of the time no doubt. But the fusilier version is shown up clearly on page 6 of the same book.

So, from Anton's very valuable research- it looks like 3/4 of the Pavlovs should actually wear the short fusilier mitre. Logic also suggests this, even if its rarely if ever depicted in illustrations of the regiment at this period.

So I guess all manufacturers of 1812 Pavlovs need to add new figures to their range. I wonder who will be first?

Lord Ashram01 Feb 2009 9:34 a.m. PST

Man, the Napoleonic wars inspired the absolute silliest war-hats imaginable.

Wulfila02 Feb 2009 4:04 a.m. PST

Seneffe- You are possibly right, but to me it looked more like an imperfect attempt to depict the fusilier version! See page 4 of the same book, a contemporary print c. 1800 where you can see what looks like a grenadier and fusilier standing next to each other. The difference is that the fusilier mitre is shown a tad smaller, without pompom, and the mitre cloth-bag is not attached to the front plate.

Ether way, as AntonK has pointed out and makes perfect sence, the Pavlovski continued to use the fusilier mitres after the 1811 reorganisations.

GJM FIGURINES02 Feb 2009 6:23 a.m. PST

what a great thread…………………..just found it

raducci03 Feb 2009 3:56 a.m. PST

At 15mm will there be that much difference between a grenadier or a fusilier mitre? Heresy I know but I have to ask.

Defiant03 Feb 2009 7:14 a.m. PST

with the current AB range it is very noticable…

AntonioK08 Feb 2009 8:30 a.m. PST
AntonioK08 Feb 2009 8:37 a.m. PST

Picture is from book "Napoleonic Wars" by Pavel Alehin. Pavlovski grenadiers depicted in 1809-1813 uniform.

seneffe08 Feb 2009 3:44 p.m. PST

Nice illustrations- many thanks. We definitely need lots of new Pavlov figures accross several ranges. I notice the chinstraps though no scales on both types of mitre.

AntonioK10 Feb 2009 2:11 a.m. PST

In the regiment only officers used brass chinscales that were introduced for them in 1809. Pavlovski rank-and-file used black chinstraps until the end of Napoleonic wars, according to several sources. Czar transferred regiment to Guard in April 1813. It is known that new guard uniform with red lapels they received only at the end of 1814. Brass chinscales for soldiers were introduced in 1812, certainly Guard units and some regiments received them even before the invasion but many regiments including several line grenadier regiments continued to wear black leather chinstraps even by 1815.

nvrsaynvr10 Feb 2009 10:19 a.m. PST

To add to that, according to Denis Mishanin as translated here:
link
line jaegers were not authorized chin scales either, although Viskovatov seems to say they were. Viskovatov does not leather straps for the foot artillery.

NSN

nvrsaynvr10 Feb 2009 5:44 p.m. PST

Sorry, that should have been, "Viskovatov does have leather straps for the foot artillery."

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