"What's Battlegroup Panzergrenadier like?" Topic

In the never ending quest to find "the" set of WW2 rules I've now seen this one.

So how is it different than Battlefront WW2, or FOW, or Command Decision, etc.?

Thanks.

I've recently picked it up off ebay. Once I've read it and played it I'll get back to you :)

I'm hoping it'll work as my 20mm WW2 stuff has been out of the cupboard once in the last 3 years now :(

We too are searching for 'the' set, especially one that is more suited to multiplayer games so Cross Fire and BKC aren't the best option there. RF was ok but not every one's cup of tea and FOW didn't feel like a WW2 game but rather a game with WW2 toys.

Steve P

I was able to download the QRS sheet and see how the mechanics work to some extent.

The heart of it seems to be the command rules though. Can anyone provide a description of those?

I have never used it for WW2 but works well for indo-china. Each HQ has to roll a D6 to see how many command point it gets to allocate.

Once used to firing works quite fast. Hope that is of some help

There is an updated version coming out in a few months. it has more emphasise on the level of the command element and the order itself. I would suggest you wait until that version is released.

The command points are spent to activate a command which can vary in strength

You need a lot more command bases than the other games mentioned.

B,

If I may be so bold, the Intro to the 2nd Edition is below.

The website can answer further questions: generaldebrigade.greatboard.com

Battlegroup Panzer-Grenadier rules are designed to cover WW2 engagements ranging from company combats to Battlegroup level actions, reproducing the challenges presented by tactical combat throughout the 1939-45 war, while also permitting the use of the vast array of vehicles and equipment that supported the infantryman throughout the conflict.

The basic game tactical unit is the infantry section or squad supported by armoured fighting vehicles, artillery and ground attack aircraft. The rules are written for use with 15mm or 20mm figures, though work perfectly well for smaller scales.

2nd Edition Battlegroup Panzer-Grenadier remains firmly based on the original fire and movement mechanisms however there are differences in several areas, especially command and control.

New Command & Control!
Completely new command and control rules permit players to attempt wider activation of units and Combat Groups within their Battlegroups, now influenced directly by the presence of command units, national ability and "command pressure" from the Battlegroup HQ.

The 1st Edition's sole reliance on Command Points for Combat Group activation has been replaced with an Activation Table which now relies on Command Units to activate Combat Groups and to allow for HQ Command Points to assist with these activation attempts. Those units without command may now only be activated as individual units (with the required assistance of a Command Point if they are not specialist troops), thereby placing a heavier emphasis upon the importance of command and the chain of command within the rules.

Thus the more flexible and well lead German army will have the ability to activate a good number of Combat Groups, while the less effective armies, such as the Russians, will find it harder to activate multiple Combat Groups. These armies will need to rely more heavily on activating the fewer Senior Command Units to move large numbers of troops, in order to achieve their aims.

Command Decisions!
Players should not expect all their units to be activated each turn and are still forced to make command decisions as to where to concentrate command effort. Thus unrealistic situations where every single unit on the wargames table is permitted to move and fire without restriction are still avoided within the 2nd Edition.

Uncertainty is also introduced within the game turn, as any double one activation attempt automatically generates a Command Confusion result which provides the opponent with an opportunity to seize the initiative and immediately end the current players phase.

New Rules for Artillery; Machine Guns & AT Guns!
Greater emphasis has also been placed on the historical differences between armies, for instance the revised artillery rules reflect each major nation's artillery doctrine and unique usage, while new rules covering MG fire have also been included. Other new aspects include an intensive fire option for anti-guns and self-propelled guns, this increased fire rate now gives greater consideration to the threat such weapons posed to tanks on the battlefield. This greater emphasis on weapon and national differences will require commanders to play to the strengths of their particular Battlegroup, accepting that while they may be weak in one area they can take advantages of their strengths in other areas.

Japanese!
Finally new rules and equipment lists have been introduced for the Japanese, enabling players to expand into the Asian and Pacific theatres.

Players will find the 2nd Edition more comprehensive but it nonetheless maintains a fluid game mechanism that still provides for a good range of "realistic" outcomes. The emphasis of Battlegroup Panzer-Grenadier is still firmly based on playability, after all wargamers usually prefer to see their miniatures on the table top and actually have something to shoot at during the course of a game!

Hope that helps.

DB

Helps very much so, thanks.

Particulalrly nice to hear the Japanase are included as I have some Dutch East Indies and Japanese troops which is always a fun fight.

Considering I'm not likely to play for some months due to other games in the priority queue and I've yet to really read V1.0, am I likely to waste my time if I do read it and I should just wait for v2.0? Are the army lists likely to change in view of the higher emphasis on C&C?

Steve P

David,

It does help. Thanks.

One more question. From perusing the QRS and the intro to the second edition it sounds as though the Combat Groups and Assault Groups are not "fixed" but are rather ad hoc and can be changed in the course of a game (like in Blitzkrieg Commander).

Is that correct?

Steve,

Many of the basic game mechanics in the 1st Edition remain the same in the 2nd Edition, the biggest change is in Command & Control.

So you will certainly pick up the basic game system.

DB

B,

Re: "Combat Groups and Assault Groups are not "fixed" but are rather ad hoc and can be changed in the course of a game"

That's correct – they can be changed each turn. However they are limited by the command radius of the command unit activating the Combat Group, so they will not change that drastically. Combat Groups tend to remain reasonably constant, say a Rifle platoon with the addition of a heavy weapon or AFV.

As retreats, casualties or destroyed AFV's occur the Combat Group has an opportunity to acquire additional units (if available!) or continue in a reduced capacity.

Assault Groups have now been incorporate into Combat Groups. The player now makes the command choice of excising either a Rapid Advance (increased movement potential) at the expense of firing or issuing a Fire & Manoeuvre order which permits recce, standard movement and firing.

DB

David,

Thanks for the explanation.

Sounds like the 2nd Edition will have some drastic changes.

In that case I'll wait until the new edition comes out to purchase. Thanks.

BTW – We'll be putting on a 2nd Edition BGPG game "Battle for the Reichstag" at Salute this year, if you are able to make it. (And if I ever get to finish building Berlin!)

DB

David,

One of the things I really dislike about BKC is that each stand is a unit, and the units can be combined and recombined each turn. Selecting individual squads and combining them into groups (not necessarily into platoons and companies, just groups) doesnt seem to reflect how a Kampfgruppe Commander or CCA orders troops. My understanding is that at this level of command it would seem to make more sense for the orders to be given to companies and their component platoons.

I like how BGPG uses a reasonable TO&E for the period and hope that this has not changed.

Dean

D,

Nothing in the organisation has changed.

Although players may select the composite units to their combat group, a "combat group" in BGPG actually refers to a platoon sized attack force as opposed to the larger KfG, etc.

The inherent command radius associated with a BGPG Combat Group keeps things pretty tight, though there is scope to bring in an AFV or support weapon to assist on a particular turn, if available and within command radius. This simply reflects immediate tactical requirements.

E.G. A Platoon commander may activate up to five units within his command radius – which will basically mean his platoon. When things start to go wrong the system does permit a platoon commander to combine two reduced platoons into one combat group, but that is not always possible. (Again it will primarily be restricted by command radius.)

Battlegroup objectives are dictated by the player at the beginning of the game.

DB

Hi Guys,

I am interested in hearing a little more about the rules, there seem to be some similarities to BKC. I have to say I have played BKC and do not like it's approach at all.

1) Command structure
I like the theory of a more flexible command structure for some armies. In BKC this just comes down to a dice roll which randomly makes it almost impossible to move hardly any russian of French or italian troops, whilst Germans run around everywhere. I have no problem if a Russian army can mostly move and fire but are in some way penalised for poor command structure. Could you explain a little further how it differs from BKC?

2) Shooting in BKC where everything just gets a number of dice and you have to accumulate a number of hits before a unit is killed. I found the problem with this approach is that a lone anti tank gun for example can not achieve anything as it can not stack up enough hits to destroy a unit and any hits are removed at the end of the turn. This game became purely numbers.

I am reading flames of war rules, and overall can't see anything wrong with them?

To give you a feel, I am playing AT-43 at the moment and am really enjoying those rules, though i know those are skirmish level. I am looking for a set with about 10 or so armoured vehicles per side and a sensible number of infantry and other supporting units

Andy

They are not like BKC at all.

The command roll determines who starts the turn with initiative and also determines how much command influence they start a turn with. i.e. how many commands can do stuff.. You can have situations where one side can win initiative but the other side, due to its size and inherent command, can move more. Unlike BKC, you do not necessarily need command to conduct fire.

Any weapon system can have some effect on a target within range.

BTW – We'll be putting on a 2nd Edition BGPG game "Battle for the Reichstag" at Salute this year, if you are able to make it. (And if I ever get to finish building Berlin!)

Ooh! Now I am tempted to come down. I'd been debating coming as I have a few diary clashed but now…

Steve P

Andy,

I've not played BKC, so must go with Kevan's comments.

In BGPG:
Command Structure: Less effective armies, such as the Russians, will normally have less command points and Russian Combat Groups are harder to activate. Occasionally though they will be able to outmanoeuvre the Germans, esp. in 1945!

The Russians need to rely more on using their Senior Command Units (Infantry Company commands or Tank Group commands) to activate/move Combat Groups. Quite often, esp. in the early war games, the Russians will need to rely pretty heavily on using Senior Command units to order forward large numbers of units in a Rapid Advance or even Human Wave.

By 1943 the Russians improve slightly and have a better chance at coordinating and manoeuvring their Combat Groups but they will rarely be on an equal footing to the Germans, until 1945.

2) Shooting: Each individual unit fires. Thus lone AT gun units can be a real threat, esp. if they are Ambushed Camouflaged, (i.e. hidden and not placed on the board). If you have a well placed antitank gun screen supported by infantry with MMG's, life becomes very difficult for an attacking player, even the Germans!! (It's then down to laying smoke and requesting artillery support!)

DB