"The right to copy figures?" Topic

Pie and an artistic sculpture are, well, apples and oranges. Your example has absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand.

Another couple of hypotheticals:

My car needs new tie rods as my old ones are worn. I remove one of my tie rods and duplicate it as closely as possible in my garage machine shop. Is this "piracy"? Who got hurt, Chevrolet, NAPA?

If I build some shelves in my garage out of 2 x 4's to hold odds and ends, have I reduced the profits of shelving manufacturers? Not if I never intended to purchase shelves.

It seems to me it's all about intent.

You still do not understand even the basics of copyright!

My car needs new tie rods as my old ones are worn. I remove one of my tie rods and duplicate it as closely as possible in my garage machine shop. Is this "piracy"? Who got hurt

You have just made a duplicate of the worn tie rod? why?

Who could get hurt – you!

Your hypotheticals remind me of the old joke:
There has been an aircrash – 28 dead – where do they bury the survivors?

Wow – what a can of worms! I'm not in favor of recasting but the 'basics' of copyright apply in various forms in various countries. In the States, the copyright laws are downright draconian [from a hippie point of view], while here [Poland] everyone's view of copyright laws are damn near nonexistant [practically but they are on the books] and never enforced.

'denying a seller a profit' – what if the seller doesn't respond to your queries in 3, 5, 10 years or ever or if the company is out of business – like Heritage Kriegspeilers, etc.?

Just a thought – don't tar and feather me!

Please feel free to enlighten me.

Please explain the difference between my tie rod example and recasting a figure. Both are copyrighted items, owned by their respective manufacturers. The only difference is the actual method of duplication.

If I had the facilities to make a mold of the tie rod and recast one for my use, is that different?

(they don't bury survivors anymore ;)

Maybe I duplicated a tie rod from the other side of the car that wasn't worn?

You don't have to like or understand copyright law to violate it.

Yes many nations have laws that differ – but by the enforcement as most have signed up to international agreements.

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@ nazrat: I imagine a chef who has spent years perfecting his pie recipe would differ about whether it is an artistic creation or not.

And some things aren't "artistic", an M4 Sherman tank, for example. Duplicating the original as closely as possible is difficult, to be sure, but artistic?

OK Lets look at the Sherman – the Brits had to produce it under license
They payed the owners of the design for the right to produce it.
They could not just buy one any copy it!
That why they had a war debt!

@Black Tower:

I was referring to the creation of a miniature version of the Sherman, in reference to wargaming/modeling and the subject of recasting. My apologies for not making that clearer.

Several American aircraft makers tried to charge companies such as Airfix & Matchbox for the right to reproduce their full size aircraft in miniature IIRC.

A real tank is utilitarian, a miniature does not have the same function

You seem to be asking what comes under copyright law?

See Dan Chase Taxidermy Supply Co., Inc v Superior Form
This is a Forth circuit court judgment on recasting

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Since we are makingup hypothetical situations –

Let's say your neighbor tells you for $50 USD he will bring you over a bushel of his tomatoes from his garden every week. You agree and give him $50. USD

Your neighbor then unexpectedly has to go overseas due to a work emergency and is gone all summer. No way to contact him, no one living at the house.

So as you sit there and watch his tomatoes grow and then rot, you say to yourself "Boy I wish I could walk over there and get those tomatoes I paid for" But when you ask on TMP everyone tells you you can't because that's trespassing and stealing. Both of those acts are illegal and immoral. You should instead get a lawyer and sue your neighbor.

There's the letter of the law and the spirit of the agreement.

Uhm… copyright does allow you TO ASK PERMISSION.
It's not a case of "do I steal or do I do nothing."
It's a case of "do I steal or do I ask permission."

You want more of a certain fig. It's OOP. Contact the rights holder and explain what you want to do and why. Chances are, he or she will say, "Heck, I'm not making any money on the dang things now and probably won't in the future. Sure; knock yourself out." They might be specific: "Personal use." They might ask for a small payment. Chances are, they won't just say a flat "no."
And if they do… well, sigh and look for alternative miniature choices. There really isn't any specific miniature you must have.

Apple pies, tomatoes, Sherman tanks, the FBI – people get real, the bloke wants to cast some toy soldiers to play with at home – he's not setting out on some high profit criminal enterpize, not to mention he's actually asked for permission from the the owner.

This has gone from silly, to being pius and boring to now finally competely ridiculous!!

Cincinnatus – quite a few few have found themselves with a criminal record because they took something that they felt belonged to them.

Cincinnatus – I like your tomatoe thing. It's just like how I feel. But as you also state, tresspassing is also illegal.

I have still not recived any reactions to the e-mail I have sent to the manufacturer so I'm now considering the "name and shame" option. (I have e-mailed him about that too).

If I don't hear anything from him I will post the name of the company on sunday the 11th of january.

Thanks for all posts all advices, the fruits and vegitabiles etc that you have contributed with.

Had a funny one reccntly, at a model train show my father picked up a resin model truck, about HO scale. As he bought it he got talking to the guy who made it, who said it's a shell to go on X's base, do you have any? Being the sculptor for X my dad replied yes, in fact you used my cab for the front of your truck. The guy was a bit worried until Dad said he was going to copy his work into another model :-)

See it quite often with dad's work, other people using bits in their own kits. Still, it's a different market to figures. Although one year at Salute dad was speaking to a guy who made 25mm/28mm (cant remember which) medieval figures. Dad said he was going to mold them and convert them and make some of his own off of them, the guy didn't mind at all. I guess if you ask or are honest, some people don't mind. :-)

If you are like me, and anyone said 'I want to buy one of your figures to convert then make a mould and cast lots of the conversion' my response would probably be something like 'If the conversion is for your own use and you're not making many of them, fine. You have my permission. If you want it produced commercially, forget it. On the other hand, if you are prepared to do the conversion yourself, send me the figure and it is worthwhile, then I would be happy to produce it myself. In either case, copyright would be mine as it would be a derivative work, and part of the deal would be that I would have the right to produce it myself if I considered that appropriate'.

Really it depends on circumstances, and often there is a difference in attitude based on 'do you have permission from me to use elements that I own the copyright to, and are you prepared to surrender your copyright to me of the bits that are original'.