"OOB for British and Germans during Oosterbeek fight???" Topic

Am looking for starting OOB's for both British and German forces that participated in the fighting around the Oosterbeek perimeter Sept.1944 during Operation Market Garden.

I have some maps showing the general layout of British unit positions,and a preliminary list of both sides units.

Specifically am looking for OOB breakdown of each unit,and its manpower and weapon strength (number of men,number of heavy weapons/tanks,etc.)

Any suggestions appreciated--thanks.

The starting strengths for the whole battle are as reasonably well documented as any info for this stage of the war (ie non existant for some German units in particular apart from the comamnders name), but by the time the battle had contracted to the perimeter many of the British units were very chewed up by their abortive attacks into Arnhem so the starting strengths are hard to estimate.

Usual suspects for German & British starting OB – Kershaws 'It Never Snows in September', maybe Middlebrooks 'Arnhem 1944' for the Brits although pretty well any old book about the paras or TO&E sites like Garys bayonetstrength.150m.com will do you for the British starting strength.

The old computer game 'Airborne Assault' was very well researched with detailed unit strengths going down to individual weapons, but it is long OOP. Most boardgames on the subject are either too high level, or the more detailed ones (notably Highway to the Reich) are poorly researched by modern standards.

It's been a while since I read either book (I own both – both excellent books), I know they show the German units, but I'm not sure that individual unit strengths are indicated. IIRC, these units were in refit, or were rear area units so might not have easily found TO&Es.

The Armor at War series book "German Armored Units at Arnhem" by Marcel Zwarts / Concord publications has some useful detailed info on the vehicles available to 9th SS, 10th SS, and the various misc armoured units involved as well as a large amount of pictures.
No idea how accurate the info is though !

I would second Martin's suggestions.

It Never Snows in September is very good for the Germans -- but will only give you an idea of where they were located, and a reasonable estimate of strength.

For the Paras you can start with the 2nd Brigade and the Airlanding Brigade, then reduce this over time with units being sent to Arnhem (and getting chewed up) and with losses around Osterbeek. I think Middlebrook has a map of Osterbeek indicating areas held by different para units -- but it may be in another book -- which I can't get to at the minute to check.

As Martin says, it never snows in september, that books changed my views obn that battle.

Although more research on the bridge is advisable, I have roughly calculated that there was far more ad hoc's there than were really counted.

Steveus,got Zwarts book in hand--thanks for suggesting it.

I read Kershaws book years ago,but will need to look at it again.

Found some neat info at these two websites:

link

link

What time period were you going to look at? Right from the initial drop or only once KG Tettau had really got going?

Realistically I don't think anyone will ever know what the internal compositon of e.g. the 603rd naval observation battalion was. I'd just take the manpower strength and divide it roughly into companies allowing for HQ elements etc, similarly things like the dismounted tank crews.

With the various ad hoc German units, do you think they should just be rifle + SMG armed? Or they should have a few MGs and/or 81mm mortars, especially once they get to Battalion size?

It is really hard to say – if it is the remains of a regular unit fleshed out with scrapings, then yes, they will almost certainly have some heavy weapons. OTOH I've read accounts of men sent to fight at Arnhem who were organised into ad-hoc companies and picked up weapons from a heap when they arrived.

Bipod mounted machineguns are very likely indeed in any unit, it is the more complex stuff like mortars and tripod MGs I'd be a bit dubious about, let alone infantry guns etc. If organised into battalions, then it is very likely indeed they would have some sort of battalion weapons company, even if it was weak. 100 assorted blokes wandering around though? I'd be surprised if they had more than half a dozen LMGs.

I have gleaned the following imformation from Kershaw's book as examples;

KG Moeller (9SS Engineer Battalion)

The unit was issued with 1 MG42 per section.
They acquired 2 flamethrowers.
Of the 5 1/2 tracks they had 3 were given to 10SS & kept the other 2.
Strength reported as 60-100 men (partly Naval)

KG Allwoerden (9SS AT Battalion)

One member of the unit stated virtually every man had a machine gun picking a lot up during the retreat from France. An exaggeration no doubt but I would say they must have had a higher proportion than usual.
2 SP Guns (JPIV L48) and some tomed Pak.
Strebgth 120 men.

Sure, but these were regular units, not just some bunch of blokes thrown together for the battle. I would fully expect SS armoured engineers to have (at least!) one MG per section, similarly I'd expect the AT battalion to have some minimal AT capability (even if they had lost most of their guns south of Valkenswaard). I wonder what the dismounted tank crews had though.

I found this OB listing (smg = Schwere MG, ie tripod mount):

Other SS-units: (or SS-commanded)

SS Landstorm Nederland

approx. 150 men of collaborating Local police/fashists
armory: Mainly remnants of Dutch Army(British rifles/Vinkers MG /
Dunkirque material, older german equipment mainly K98 and some MG 34)
12 x Squad Irregulars
4 mg34
4 x 5cm Mortar

KG Tettau: 7000 men. Composition:

-SS PzGrAuE Btl.16(SS Stammbattalion 16) (Kraft)

600 men:
2 reinforced companies (incl. training personell) with:
4 SMG 42
8 LeMg42
Training-examples of Stg44
Training examples of FG42
250 Ka98
50 Gw43 (5 with scope)
32 Walter 38
60 Mp40
8 5cm mortar
4 8cm mortar
2 20mm Flak
Vehicles: 4 150mm Panzerwerfer
Pzfaust and Fauspatrone

-SS-School Arnhein 3.000 men (Eberwein + Lippert)
2 Btl. And lots of Staff
8 le mg42
4 smg42
8 5cm mortar
4 8cm mortar
6 20mm Flak

-SS Police School 600 men (Helle)
2 reinforced companies
6 lemg42
8 5cm mortar
2 20mm flak

-42nd Naval Battallion
2 companies
6 Lemg42
6 5cm mortar
2 20mm Flak

-Fliegerhorst battalion 2
4companies
4 lemg42
8 5cm mortar

-Fliegerhorst battalion 3
2companies
4 lemg42
2 5cm mortar

-Schiffsturm Abteilung 10 and 6/14
2 btl.
10 Lemg42
8 5cm mortar

-Artillerie Regiment 184 (400 men)

10 10.5 leH
2 smG
6 lemg
no mortar

Martin,

Some interesting information there & it would seem to be exactly what thedrake was asking for.
Where did you find it?

Nigel

Google, can't recall now. It was the forum on a design site for one of the numerous computer games on Arnhem.

Martin,

Wow!!! Great stuff;exactly what I was looking for.

Would you happen to have the link for where you found this info ????

Thanks,
Mark

I can't remember, I was googling for Schiffsturm and mainly got the usual suspects like feldgrau, axis history etc. I've got no idea reliable those figs are, but Krafft looks about right, so maybe the others are too.

Martin,

Krafft is not exactly right he had one schwere granatwerfer ground mounted, eight mortars 8cm and in fact had three kompanies 4th 6th and 9th.
KG lippert is wrong
Arty Regt 184 had no guns, plus dont think 5cm mortars were issued at all.

Schiff Stamm Abteilung (Saliors Pool) is a training depot for new naval recruits they were outfitted in filed grey and taught basic infantry training including drill and wepaons, once passed out they then went onto specialist training. They were outfitted as a normal Grenadier company.

As far as the brits goes

Para Bn, 3x rifle coys of three platoons consisiting of three sections of ten men each, with one bren and a ratio of 6:4 sten/rifle. One rifle was converted to sniper and sometimes a 2" mortar wa sissued but usually only carried at platoon level.
Support came in the form of a MG paltoon of 4x Vickers and a Mortar Platoon of 4x 3" moratrs.
Had a A/Tk platoon but the PIATs were issued out to the platoons (19 in total)The ATk platoon was converted to a assault pioneer platoon of three sections armed like their rifle brethren plus pioneer stores (NO Flamethrowers.

A/L Bn had four rifle companies each of four platoons which varied in strength (due to horsa loading)usually 2x eight man sections plus a five man scout section. Platoon HQ had 2" mortar and a PIAT.
Support was in the form of MG group of two MG platoons of four vickers MG, (one jeep mounted and other in handcarts.
Mortar group consisted of two mortar platoons each of six 3" mortars (one jeep platoon one hand cart platoon)and a ATK group of two platoons each of four 6Pdrs.

I talked to an Arnhem vet once, who stated once that they were mostly using German weapons, mp40's, mg 34's and 42's he was using a sten and kept it throughout, but also used a German rifle when needed.

So it again depends on what your looking for, Brits on the day, or three days in when whatever they could scrounge would be used.

Martin