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"Warhammer Historical Siege and Conquest" Topic


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2,375 hits since 20 Dec 2008
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Starbuck Inactive Member20 Dec 2008 5:58 a.m. PST

I am considering purchasing this supplement…can someone who has already played them give me a feel for how they play?

Gattamalata Inactive Member20 Dec 2008 3:46 p.m. PST

Here's whitemanticore's review: TMP link

I got my copy last month during the end of year Warhammer Historical Sale, but haven't played it yet. It's scenario driven, as mentioned in the review, so I'll have to find a way around it, as some take the secrecy out of besieger's/besieged's actions. It's a significant improvement over the 5th Edition WFB Siege book and the tacked on rules at the back of the 6th Ed. rules. Still prefer the 3rd Edition Warhammer Siege supplement for the details, but this is close enough.

Gecoren21 Dec 2008 3:36 a.m. PST

Believe you me, I looked carefully at 3rd Edition WFB Siege and it was quite the book keeping experience. S&C is designed around making sieges playable in a reasonable time-scale.

For those who want to count the structure points as each trebuchet round hits, that mechanism is in there too (with realistic damage scales – walls don't fall down in hours or the course of a standard game).

For those who don't, you can 'cut to the chase', work out what damage you've done to the walls and play a siege in an evening. A grand siege, like the Constantinople scenario could be played over the course of the day.

The general premise was to keep it simple and keep it playable – as close to the standard WAB battle scenario as possible.

Cheers,

Guy

Gattamalata Inactive Member21 Dec 2008 8:39 a.m. PST

Believe you me, I looked carefully at 3rd Edition WFB Siege and it was quite the book keeping experience. S&C is designed around making sieges playable in a reasonable time-scale.

It's a siege game, what do you expect? Sure it requires a GM, like 3rd Edition WFB, but you could easily bypass the middleman by dice and other modifications. If you know what you're doing, and it's not an overly elaborate fortification, it won't take that long to play. Plus there's a glossary with page references.
For those who want to count the structure points as each trebuchet round hits, that mechanism is in there too (with realistic damage scales walls don't fall down in hours or the course of a standard game).

The same as in every other Warhammer game and the damage scales are simplified in comparison with 3rd Ed. Warhammer Siege. Not that this is a bad thing, especially if one lacks the time, but I like the domino effect of collapse and secondary collapse, indicated on the model by counters or conversion; minor and partial collapse, with prepared and improvised defended obstacles, seems vanilla in comparison – better to have a basic and optional advanced damage rules. I prefer the 3rd Ed. awareness rule, instead of a pre-determined scenario for messengers, sorties and treason. At least mining isn't a scenario, unlike in WFB Siege; tied in with awareness, mining/countermining is interesting and can be tense, in S&C it's simply rolling dice. S&C has a simplifed supply system, while Warhamme(3rd Ed.) Siege had food and ammunition counters, giving attackers and defenders the freedom to determine resource expenditure.
For those who don't, you can 'cut to the chase', work out what damage you've done to the walls and play a siege in an evening. A grand siege, like the Constantinople scenario could be played over the course of the day.

This has been touted by proponents, and I've got nothing against, but there should have been something more detailed than the above, or with optional details – the best thing.
The general premise was to keep it simple and keep it playable as close to the standard WAB battle scenario as possible.

I've no problem with scenarios, especially one off ones, and S&C's ones are an improvement over the WFB 4th/5th/6th Editions' ones, but lack the freedom of 3rd Edition Siege. I'd have preferred these to be guidelines with points values, giving players the option of varying degrees of adherence to the rules.

The attacker and defender movement and combat rules are a major improvement over the complexity of Warhammer 3rd Ed. Siege and simplicity of 4th/5th/6th WFB Siege. I like the raiding scenarios and plan on incorporating these and combat rules with 3rd Edition Siege damage and awareness rules.

Gecoren21 Dec 2008 11:15 a.m. PST

It's a siege game, what do you expect?

Now that was the entire challenge, what did people expect from sieges?

The general consensus was they were 'boring', which was a great shame as so much of history is pivotal on sieges (without siege there is no conquest). I wanted to change that.

As stated, the aim was to make them playable and fun as possible. So I did look at 3rd edition and very nice though it was it didn't meet the requirements set down by Warhammer Historical.

3rd edition was a complex beastie, even so there is some homage to the domino effect in there, although you'd have to be quite lucky for it to happen. But there again, that's quite historical!

Cheers,

Guy

giblabman1 Inactive Member21 Dec 2008 1:16 p.m. PST

Guy is being too modest – the suplement is a corker! Well worth the money just for the additional skirmish scenarios, irrespective of the siege aspects. A generic supplement – packed with ideas for players who are interested in any ancient period.

colin knight21 Dec 2008 3:29 p.m. PST

Sieges are boring, or rather were before this book. If you want to get those nice buildings etc this is the book for you.

Lots of options from an assault with massed siege towers to a viking or Sea people raid. You can even have a perhistoric settlement raid. The list goes on. A very well presented book with lots of eye candy.

Gattamalata Inactive Member21 Dec 2008 9:06 p.m. PST

To avoid further infomercial style endorsements, let me say that I'm not knocking this book, as it's better than any of the WFB siege rules since 4th Edition. I intend to use it in the fantasy games and would highly recommend it, but I think it could have had some additional rules in parts without compromising speed of play. An index would have been great, though I know it's not in any of the other WAB titles, but here it's a necessity.

Now that was the entire challenge, what did people expect from sieges?

The general consensus was they were 'boring', which was a great shame as so much of history is pivotal on sieges (without siege there is no conquest). I wanted to change that.


Consensus from whom? IIRC, I once read Mr. Stillman saying that prior to publishing the 5th Edition Bretonnian book some were queried as to what comes to mind when they think of Bretonnia. "Most" said knights, so what resulted was a supplement that only satisfied a certain later vocal segment. I'm not suggesting that one relied on a Napoleonic plebiscite in working on this supplement, but I'd guess there are just as many who enjoy sieges over battles or aren't bored by either one. In my experience, I've found no difference between battles and sieges in relation to boredom, with the latter being relaxing and less time consuming than the former: I don't need as many models on the table, unless it's the final stage, so it's not as time consuming to setup and pack.
As stated, the aim was to make them playable and fun as possible. So I did look at 3rd edition and very nice though it was it didn't meet the requirements set down by Warhammer Historical.

The Battlesystem book has an expanded rules section with optional rules, W:S&C could have had the same, to enhance the siege experience. If space's the issue, why not a pdf? The 3rd Ed. Siegebook had zones surrounding the castle, allowing for foraging and (bi-)circumvallation could have been better represented on a map. As is, the the campaign game only has food supplies, why not expand with ammunition stores? An optional rule for ammunition and food points, the former allocated to machines and missile units, the latter with an option for consumption based on garrison size. Besieger and besieged awareness rolls, allowing messengers to sneak out unnoticed, mining and reinforcements. The relief of Vienna in 1683 was a success due the Ottoman commander neglecting pickets.
3rd edition was a complex beastie, even so there is some homage to the domino effect in there, although you'd have to be quite lucky for it to happen. But there again, that's quite historical!

Instead of 12" sections, I prefer dividing walls into 3 4" parts, allowing for the 4" breach and a potentially better domino effect. This way it's closer to the collapse and secondary collapse in the 3rd Edition book.

Gecoren22 Dec 2008 3:19 p.m. PST

<sigh> I really didn't come here to argue with you. All I'm telling you is why the book is as it is. 3rd edition was many things but simple wasn't one of them sadly.

Consensus from whom?

The research that was done prior to my hiring plus the people I spoke to. So people! Please refer to the list inside the front cover for further details.

If space's the issue, why not a pdf?

Space was an issue. Thus there is was no naval rules in there (they were left out with a few other bits). They don't usually do PDFs, they do books. There's a contents page on page 2, not an index per se, but close enough.

Cheers,

Guy

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