"British Battalions – How many flags?" Topic

I recently got some British Foot somewhat unintended. Since I play French and French allies I don't have a huge use for them or a lot of background about them. That said my girlfriend says she wants to paint them up so …

How large are British Foot battalions? I have:

28 Fusiliers
23 Elites
5 Flag Bearers
2 Color Guars – I think, looks like an NCO holding a pike with a cross / pike end
6 Officers
6 Drummers

From the standpoint of cmd figures I have 5-6 battalions I think, though I once saw someone post that British battalions carried two standards per battalion not just one.

Can people fill me in on the need to knows?

I play 15mm 1:60 games so I was thinking 8-12 figures per battalion with 2-4 elites in each for looks (I don't play games that go into company level detail so elites and fusiliers are interchangeable but a "correct" mix makes a nice visual).

Cheers,

The Bandit

each battalion carried the regimental flag, and the kings colors, which would be the union jack.
but if you only have 12 or less figs in a unit, two flags would be to much(some think it's to much even if you have 24 figs.
so I would choose one flag and stick to it.
the regimental flags would make it easier to see which battalion is which

battlions ranged from 400 to almost a 1000,

with the norm beeing somewhere in the middel I would think.

each battalion had two flank companies, light and grenadiers.

so I would say 8-12 would be ok.

I would say do the Regimental colour, and as for number of cpmpanies etc I would look for rules before fixing anything.

Gunfreak: Thanks, sounds like I'll need a couple more standard bearers and I can make something like 7-8 battalions with the ~70 figures I have.

FreddBloggs: I have rules picked out that I play and love. They do not care about the make up of given battalions so the various figures in a battalion become just for looks.

Can anyone confirm about the figures I suspect are color guards?

Cheers,

The Bandit

sounds like a Sergeant to me, I have the same fig, and use it as a sergeant.

but he plays no specialt role, just to give my battalion some spice

As I recall, the pike is called a spontoon, and the NCO tended to use it sidewise as sort of a push pole to keep people in line.

It has been years since I have gamed and studied the British Napoleonics, but the 2 "color guards" are sergeants. The British were the last army to have their NCO's carry "half pikes." Allegedly, they contributed to the high level of British fire accuracy, as the sergeant would aim his pike at the enemy, and his men to the left of him would level their muskets as he had leveled his pike. As gunsmoke obscured the enemy, his men could continue to fire as he had aimed. Toward the end of the war, Wellington created the rank of Color Sergeant, and two such sergeants flanked the two colors.

The British had line battalions of 10 companies: 1 grenadier, 1 light, and 8 center.

You could do two 10-figure battalions with 1 Gren; 1 Lt; 1 color; 1 sgt; 1 officer; 1 drummer; and 4 private men each.

Then 3 10 figure battalions with 1 private man taking the place of the color sergeant you do not have.

That leaves 1 Gren, 1 Lt, 1 Officer, 1 Drummer, and 6 private men for a unit without a color. Perhaps you can convert the officer to carrying the color.

You are left with 11 elites, no "cadre." A light battalion in the British army usually had eight companies. You could put one more light figure into the battalions above, and draw away an officer where you already have a color officer, and use all 11 figures as strong battalion (43rd or 52nd?).

These figures with correct regimental colors could look most impressive "off the board" on storage shelves. And you wind up with a small "division" of 7 battalions.

Watch out, you may get hooked on the British!

GdeP

Garde de Paris,

1. thanks for the advice, sounds like a decent plan

2. highly unlikely I'll be changing sides, though my girlfriend says she may want to paint them up …

Cheers,

The Bandit

By "fusiliers" I assume you mean line infantry, not the guys in the pointy bearskins (23rd Foot was it?).

Correct.

Cheers,

The Bandit

With the British btlns you can pretty much rely on the figure of 1,000 men per full strength btln. This was pretty much standard for the period. The Guards and Highlanders could go higher to about 1,200 men or so. All btlns were made up of 10 companies as previous posters have noted. However, the Guards in particular did go to battle sometimes with an extra Light company attached. This could bring them well over the 1,200 mark for sure.

Fusiliers would be equal to the average Line btln for strength but they also have the lowest desertion or loss rate of all units including the guard. So Guards and Fusilier btlns would be closer to full strength then the average Line or Light btln.

As I stated, paint your btlns to full (paper) strength so that you can draw the strength you need for a particular battle or campaign, I do this myself. For 1:60 I would go with the following :

Guards & Highlanders (Full strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2-4 figs.
Centre x 14-16 figs.

Guards & Highlanders (Campaign strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2-3 figs.
Centre x 11-12 figs.

Fusilier Btlns (Full strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2 figs.
Centre x 13 figs.

Fusilier Btlns (Campaign strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2 figs.
Centre x 11 figs.

Fusilier Btlns (Worn down strength) :
Grenadiers x 1 figs.
Lights x 1 figs.
Centre x 10 figs.

Line & Light Btlns (Full strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2 figs.
Centre x 13 figs.

Line & Light Btlns (Campaign strength) :
Grenadiers x 1 figs.
Lights x 1 figs.
Centre x 11 figs.

Line & Light Btlns (Worn down strength) :
Grenadiers x 1 figs.
Lights x 1 figs.
Centre x 8 figs.

At a ratio of 1:60 the above would be my idea of a break up of each btln type as a simple guide. The Fusilier break down is only if you feel inclined to believe they were any better than the typical line regiment. However, you could say this about several British Line regiments who were a cut above the rest such as the 88th for example…

Regards,
Shane

I will disagree on "too much".

My ACW Yankees have two flags for every 16 figs. Folks just love the visual display. You can never have too many flags.

mjc

Shane,

Very helpful indeed. Thanks!

Cheers,

The Bandit

Do the light battalions all wear the elite uniform, i.e. with epaulettes? Are there other differences to be aware of?

Cheers,

The Bandit

G'day Bandit,

The Light btlns wore wings and I am inclined to think the Light companies of the Line btlns did also but not 100% sure of this.

Shane,

Both Grenadier and Light Companies of Line and Guards Regiments wore wings. In the Guards the body of the wing was blue, with white lace; in the Line it was scarlet with white lace.

thx mate,

I hardly ever get the chance to paint Brits lately so I was not sure.

Shane thats a very usefull breakdown for the Brits, and without wanting to detract from this string which Bandit kindly started, can you give me a similar breakdown for French please?

Regards,

Rosco

I won't have as much detail as Shane because I don't do company level detail, but @ 1:60 strengths might vary like this:

1806 Campaign:
weak battalions 9 figures (many present in Bernadotte's, Lannes', and Augereau's Corps)
average battalions 12 figures (the majority of battalions in all corps)
strong battalions 15 figures (Soult's Corps for instance and some of Davout's)
over strength battalions 15-18 figures (Ney's VI Corps and the Guard)

My estimations are based on OBs for the day of Jena-Auerstδdt (10/14/1806).

Looking at the OB for Aspern-Essling the majority of the strong battalions fall into the weak category, this is true for Wagram as well with many battalions in the neighborhood of 6 figures or sometimes less (there were some instances of 400 man regiments of 4 battalions). Frankly, when playing the French during the Aspern-Essling and Wagram campaigns so many battalions are so under strength you are far smarter / better off to deploy whole regiments on the wargames table and not to separate out battalions.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Don't forget that the 76th Regiment of Foot carried four colours.

Red, blue, green and yellow?

Don't forget that the 76th Regiment of Foot carried four colours.

I've never read that before, Kilkrazy. A regimental honour, I assume. How did that come about?

G'day Rosco,

French Like this (if ratio is 1:60) :

Pre – 1808

Crack/Elite Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 1 figs.
Voltiguers x 1 figs
Fusiliers x 9 figs

Veteran Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Voltiguers x 2 figs
Fusiliers x 10 figs

Regular Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Voltiguers x 2 figs
Fusiliers x 14 figs

Post – 1808

Crack/Elite Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 1 figs.
Voltiguers x 1 figs
Fusiliers x 7 figs

Veteran Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Voltiguers x 2 figs
Fusiliers x 7 figs

Regular Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Voltiguers x 2 figs
Fusiliers x 10 figs

The Legere btlns would be identical except for the names, Carabinier instead of Grenadiers and Chasseurs instead of Fusiliers.

Notice the distortion in btln make up, this is due to the 1:60 ratio, we use 1:40 and although there still is a btln make-up distortion it is less noticeable with the extra figures per btln.

Regards,
Shane

Union jacks are cool have 2 flags i say :)

I use both standards (4 stands of 4 per battalion), but can never remember which goes on the right (King's). Remember the 10% of men on the right (grenadiers) should have white plumes, centre companies white over red, and the lights on the left with green.

link

Note that the standard for the 50th is unusual in the cross of St George/Black quarters. This is because they had black facings, so the normal regimental standard would not have looked right. Ususally they are the regimental colour, Union flag uper left, and regiment number in Roman numerals inside a wreath.

Cheers Shane, what do your 1:40 battalions look like then in terms of number of figs?

Hi Rosco,

Ration of 1:40 as follows :

British

Guards & Highlanders (Full strength) :
Grenadiers x 3 figs.
Lights x 3-6 figs.
Centre x 24 figs.

Guards & Highlanders (Campaign strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2-4 figs.
Centre x 20 figs.

Fusilier Btlns (Full strength) :
Grenadiers x 3 figs.
Lights x 3 figs.
Centre x 19 figs.

Fusilier Btlns (Campaign strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2 figs.
Centre x 16 figs.

Fusilier Btlns (Worn down strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2 figs.
Centre x 12 figs.

Line & Light Btlns (Full strength) :
Grenadiers x 3 figs.
Lights x 3 figs.
Centre x 19 figs.

Line & Light Btlns (Campaign strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2 figs.
Centre x 16 figs.

Line & Light Btlns (Worn down strength) :
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Lights x 2 figs.
Centre x 12 figs.

G'day Rosco,

French Like this (if ratio is 1:40) :

Pre – 1808

Crack/Elite Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Voltiguers x 2 figs
Fusiliers x 13 figs

Veteran Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Voltiguers x 2 figs
Fusiliers x 17 figs

Regular Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 3 figs.
Voltiguers x 3 figs
Fusiliers x 21 figs

Post – 1808

Crack/Elite Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Voltiguers x 2 figs
Fusiliers x 10 figs

Veteran Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 2 figs.
Voltiguers x 2 figs
Fusiliers x 13 figs

Regular Ligne btln
Grenadiers x 3 figs.
Voltiguers x 3 figs
Fusiliers x 16 figs

Don't forget that the 76th Regiment of Foot carried four colours.

I've never read that before, Kilkrazy. A regimental honour, I assume. How did that come about?

George III granted it in thanks for their meritorious service in India. The 76th was originally raised in India in 1786, transferred to Britain in 1806 and out to the Peninsular in 1807 (if I got all the dates correct.)

They are now part of the Yorkshire Regiment and you can read their history and traditions on the regiment's web site.

Thanks again Shane! so when I've seen lots of members refer to them having 24 fig battalions, what are they referring to? what scale etc? or do they just build them up to 24 so that they can pull what they want from it depending on the game/rules?

Thank you, Kilkrazy.

G'day Rosco,

I think (and I might be incorrect) that they are referring to rules such as General de Brigade etc…

p.s.

I am an advocate of building all my units to full paper strength and simply pulling out what I need for a particular battle or campaign. I do not like games that tell me I can only have "X" amount of figures no matter what.

I do a great deal of research and build all my units according to real orbats and national composition depending on regulations and era (year). I designed a system that allows the players to use full strength btlns etc. in campaigns and a fully integrated strategic consumption system that takes care of losses from non combat situations that diminish a unit's strength over time. This allows the player to then understand how non-combat losses can affect a unit outside of the typical combat losses.

Regards,
Shane

Shane,

So do you build units to the regulation paper strength or the OB strength at the start of a given campaign? Have you read Bruce Quarrie's book as he has a chapter (a very good one and highly detailed) about this vary subject.

I tend to do some variation of the 2nd myself.

Cheers,

The Bandit

I always build to paper strength. It is much easier to leave off the extra rather than last minute painting of a few more.

Besides, full units look better on the shelf.

Hi guys,

Yes, I grew up on Napoleonics using Bruce Quarrie's Orange Airfix book then the 2nd ed. so his thoughts became the basis for my own understanding of the period at first.

I use Full paper strength of every unit and as badger says, it is better to have the full unit and take out what you don't need rather than rush paint and add figures later.

p.s. Using Paper strength is also a good way for me to study and research unit organization via George Nafziger's books, they are worth their weight in gold.

Shane

Shane, Badger… – When building units to full paper strength, and then drawing what you need for a particular occassion, how do you base your full paper strength units to give you the flexibility of drawing what you need at any given time?

I've painted up units of British and French, of roughly 24 figures each

Ross

G'day Rosco,

As for British I base them on battalions of 1,000 men at a ratio of 1:40 so it gives me a FULL Paper strength btln of 25 figures. When I do battles (historical) I pull out only enough figures that were recorded for that btln for that particular battle. If however I am doing a full campaign I will pull out all 25 figures and use them as such. This is to portray them as full strength at the beginning of the campaign and as they campaign their numbers will fall due to combat and strategic consumption etc.

For the French it depends on the year, 1805 – 1808 they are at 9 companies of 123 men = 1100 The Grenadier companies were only about 80-90 strong so I set their paper strength at 1,080 men or 27 figures.

From 1809 onwards they are 6 x 140 men per company so a battalion is 840 men or 21 figures.

Again, we will only pull out what is needed for historical battles based on or-bats but for fictitious campaigns we will use them at the FULL paper strength and allow strategic consumption and combat losses to do their work. Inevitably what we find is an army marching out for a campaign, even though it will begin at full paper strength very quickly suffers losses and the battalions begin to sink in strength until you reach a point where you are forced to reduce the number of btlns and so on.

With the Brits, they cannot really do this as each regiment was usually only a single btln thus they became very reduced individually to a point where they become unfit for the battlefield.

We allow amalgamation btlns for the Brits but this is not really a good potion as they do not have the same esprit d corps (morale) level as individual btlns. So the only other option is to pull them from the line and replace them with Fresh btlns (if available) which are usually "green" and thus have to go through the same meat grinder process as the more veteran bltns.

This same process works for any btln/regiment of any army in our system.

Regards,
Shane

Hi Shane, Happy New Year!

Thanks for that explanation, but what I meant was – how do you base the full strength units, in terms of base size and numbers on each base?, so that the basing remains flexible enough for you.

Regards,

Rosco

sorry Rosco, I did not keep up with this thread,

I base the figures at FULL Paper Company strengths in single figure depths at a ratio of 40men per figure. These bases are company strengths in three ranks on men in Line formation.

One thing I always remember reading was that in drill manuals was that the basic unit was the company no matter what army and that the company was always in LINE no matter what formation the Btln found itself in. So, basing my Btlns on bases equal to a full strength company in line was the ideal course for me.

p.s. I also know that several armies also manoeuvred in half companies also, and I also take this into account.

For example, an 1805 French btln at paper strength would have 9 companies of 123 men. In my system this would equate to 7 x 3 figure companies (bases) of Fusiliers. 1 x 3 figure company in skirmish order (if Davout or Soults corps) and 1 x 2 figure company of Grenadiers.

Doing this allows the player to get to understand drill movements while manouevring his btlns and changing formation on the table top. It allows the player to form either Column par Company or Column par Division easily because the figures are based at company strengths.

Of course because many units had company strength of 100 men or 132 men etc this does not always work and you have to compromise because the figure ratio is 1:40 but this is easily overcome in the end. The point is, that players get to understand how to move btlns by companies and get to know proper drill and formation changes based on actual drill doctrines of the drill manuals the individual army they are using adhered too.

regards,
Shane

Re the British battalions – often they didn't sail with full strength battalions to start the campaign so I can't help but feel your painting more figures than you need to. I'm sure if painting is a pleasure that's no problem but if you want to cut down on the chore research would give a strength that the regiment landed with. I do however like the basing by company and is something I do although I can't base my horse by squadron.

Regarding flags, they do look great and my ECW is full of them, a unit of 24/28/32 will have 2 – 4 flags to represent amalgamated battalia. However with my Naps which are based single rank in units typically 16 – 24 figures (18mm) I didn't want the army to be all officers and flags as I'm trying to place emphasis on the linear formations rather than making it look like 'a group of men taking a flag for a walk' (to quote Peter Berry).

I therefore decided to only put flags in one battalion per brigade. This typically will give a pair of flags per 45 – 70 figures. Similarly my French are quite ragged only having fannions and eagles without regimental colours. Its not to everybody's taste as its reduces the visual qualities of Naps but it is another way of approaching building up your forces.

Hi Timmo,

The reason I paint up enough figures for Full Paper strength is because my group and I often play entire campaigns, not just historic campaigns but fictional also. These fictional campaigns allow the players to purchase btlns up to and including full paper strength. The player might not have enough points to purchase the entire full regulation strength of the btln and can send them on their way under strength like they did historically. However, if he can afford it, he can purchase the entire paper strength btln and send it to battle.

We played the entire European Napoleonic wars many years ago where the maps alone covered an area of approx 6ft x 12ft drawn up by me to the scale of 15mm = 10mile squares with every city marked in correct distance relation to each other. The maps was plotted very accurately and set up to portray Europe at the beginning of the Titanic struggle on 1805 just before Ulm. This campaign involved 13 players and went for two real years and surprisingly at the end it was almost exactly two years later in the campaign, 1807.

Each month every player received Production points derived from Agricultural, Commerce and Trade which were used to build Fresh or new units or to re-build depleted units at the front. This was highly successful and enjoyable for the guys who would spend hours working on their armies at the beginning of each month.

I must admit that I learned several lesson from this system and how easily units at the front in an arduous campaign would become depleted from all sorts of reasons, such as battle losses, Attrition, Strategic Consumption and so on. I remember several French regiments of Infantry I had who had seen alot of action and campaigning starting at three btlns strong at full paper strength become drained so much by the end of a campaign that they would be reduced to two btlns and eventually one single amalgamated btln because I had not the means to rebuild them while on campaign. I simply had too many other critical reasons to spend the Production Points elsewhere.

I hope you can see why it is I paint up btlns to full paper strengths now? Fictitious campaigns are my number one priority, it also allows me and the guys to draw from that painted unit what is needed for historical actions as well.

Regards,
Shane

lso collect units at full strength. I only do a unit once for the full period, so it may be an 1812 uniform in an 1805 game. If it is a historical game, I can always leave figures off, but it is a pain to try to add a few if in this battle it had more than I had invisioned. Easier to just do it from the start.

<<Re the British battalions – often they didn't sail with full strength battalions to start the campaign so I can't help but feel your painting more figures than you need to.>>

Actually, that would depend on where they were coming from and would be avoided if at all possible. Unless it was a very small garrison overseas, every effort would be made to ensure units assigned to a field army were brought up to full strength prior to departure, to the point where drafts of men would be transferred from other units (who would then recruit to refill their own ranks). Sometimes units would take more men than needed to allow for campaign attrition, such as the two 1st Foot Guards battalions in the Waterloo campaign, which recruited beyond full paper strenght from Southern counties militia prior to leaving for Belgium.

I agree totally,

Many British units went to the Peninsula at full paper strength but quickly lost the cream off the top so to speak with normal attrition.

I have spoken about this many times before but my take on Unit strengths is that new fresh units often have anywhere up to 20% of their compliment made up of soldiers who are far from perfect to wear the uniform. These men who are often shirkers, lame, sickly, diseased or just plain run off (desert) can severely effect the strength of a unit and reduce it significantly. This is called, "Strategic Consumption". Once these disaffected men are gone the ones left behind in the ranks are men who a tough enough to cope with the rigours of campaigning and as a result one a btln loses its share of Attrition due to strategic consumption should rise one morale grade.

It is units at this point who are now accustomed to campaigning in the ranks and I call seasoned. From this point combat losses and further losses from all causes will continue to drain the unit but the up side is that the unit becomes even more seasoned to the point of becoming Veterans and eventually crack as a unit.

Eventually, however, the unit will deteriorate so much so that they reach a point (low strength) that they are no longer combat effective meaning they cannot maintain enough files per company to carry our proper formation frontages and so on. Also, from a gaming point of view these btlns being so low in strength have a much lower ability to absorb further losses. Meaning that in most rules a loss of 10% of a unit equates to a certain number of figures or men. With a unit so depleted and under strength a loss of each 10% is much more dangerous than say a unit twice their strength.

for example :

A British btln of Trained men 1,000 strong have a 10% level equalling 100 men.

A British btln who have been campaigning for a long time and down to 400 affective's will have a 10% level equal to a mere 40 men.

And as we know, many rules systems which use percentages this becomes a vitally important factor in determining a btln's staying power. Because if the enemy fire and cause say 155 casualties on both units the first unit would have a loss of only 15% while the depleted unit would feel the loss of almost 40% if suffering the exact same fire casualties…the resulting morale check might be iffy to say the lest and probably equally dangerous to both units because there is that balance of unit experience to take into account also between the two units.

But personal experience for me is that very small units break more easily due to the inability to endure or absorb heavy casualties compared to larger units. But you have to also factor in unit experience.

Shane

Sergants spontoon is the same as a "Half pike", and used to defend the colours as well as dressing the line?

Tommiatkins,

In a word – Yes.

Shane,

What value to do you put to the British practice of splitting larger battalions into two wings, essentially making them the equivalent of a two-battalion regiment?

Yeah, I can account for it no worries in the system I use. Both wings essentially become two, five company btlns. They would test morale separately and can affect each other if one breaks the other might falter.

I would reduce their CV rating due to the break up of the command structure possible by one point. But their fire discipline (control) would not be affected at all. The major problem is that 10% losses in a 500 man btln is twice as dangerous as 10% losses in a 1,000 man btln. Which would be worse still if the original strength of the btln was say 800 men or even 600 men…

Another thing I allow for the Brits is their 4 rank deep formations. They would be portrayed by two ranks of figures of equal length and number. If the btln was 20 figures strong it would be shown as two ranks of 10 figures. if in the situation where given the order to charge I allow the player to order just the first rank of figures to charge if desired. This is good for the Brit player because usually the French btln is already faltering or shaken so having a second rank of figures still intact in Line formation acting as a reserve or rally point is a good advantage.

If the French enemy is still itself in good order and not shaken I would not advise it due to the much more fragile state of a single rank of half a bltn charging.

Incidentally, I have not read much on the British concept of splitting the btln into two wings, would you have any information on this I could look at? I am curious.

I found a couple of references to this; you might want to discuss it as a thread topic.

link

PDF link

Regards,
Shane

Don't know if its much help.. but during the attack on Buenos Airies, most of the battalions were split in to their wings… the 45th especially, but I think I remember seeing that the 38th and 88th were also attacking in half battalions. Unfortunately I can't find the magazine I saw this in, though it had a map, and showed the direction the colums would attack in.

This is a quote from the United Services Magazine, 1833 and relates to that action.
"Their disposition was as follows:- the 45th under Lt Col Guard, the 6th Dragoon Guards under Lt Col Kington; the light brigade in two wings under Brigidier General Crauford and Lt Col Pack; the 88th in two ings under Lt Col Duff and Major Vandeleur; the 36th, in two wings under Lt COl Bryne and Captain Cross; the 5th regiment in two wings under Lt Col Davie and the hon Major King; 87th regiment, in two wings under Sir S Auchmty and Major Miller; and 38th under Lt Col Nugent"

I found that on the internet, you cant read much more than that wiht out paying to download the whole thing though.
United Service Journals and United Service Magazine are quite useful if you can find them..

One possibility (and I have no evidence for or against this) is that the batallion operating in wings would need some flag to serve as a marker for formation changes for each wing and that each wing could take one of the standards for this purpose.

Consider the alternative – one wing takes both colours and the other has none.

Any evidence out there?