"Duke of York livery for Wars of the Roses" Topic
6 Posts
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| AlanYork | 13 Sep 2008 11:05 a.m. PST |
I'm just toying with getting back into this period in 15 mm, having always regretted selling my 25mm army years ago. I know that the Duke of York's livery was blue and white but just wanted to clarify the arrangement of the colours. My understanding is that the colour of the top of the lord's fishtale banner is the one worn on the sword arm side of the livery jacket. So looking at the Graham Turner illustration in Osprey's book on Tewkesbury link Somerset's banner has white at the top, blue at the bottom so his men wear white on the sword arm side and blue on the other. Looking now at the Duke of York's banner in the Turner illustration of First St Albans link it has a falcon and fetterlock with blue at the top of the banner and white at the bottom. I'm assuming then that the Duke of York's men would have the blue on their sword arm side and white on the other. It's a little confusing as though I think I have the general principle right, I have seen depictions of Somerset's men in the Turner illustrations of Towton and indeed in that one of St Albans (the guy slumped with the flag over him) with the colours reversed so I am a little perplexed. I don't think the jackets were split at the shoulder so that the colours swapped over. Could anyone advise on this and point me in the correct direction if I have it wrong? |
| AlanYork | 13 Sep 2008 11:10 a.m. PST |
I should add that the guy slumped with the flag in the illustration appears to be a slain standard bearer for the Duke of Somerset as he seems to be carrying Somerset's standard. If my understanding of how livery works is correct then he has his livery jacket on the wrong way round. |
| vexillia | 13 Sep 2008 11:38 a.m. PST |
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GildasFacit  | 13 Sep 2008 11:51 a.m. PST |
I would say that most of the illustrations you get in books are nothing more than interpretations of very limited source material. While more is probably known about the dress of soldiers in the WoR than many previous conflicts, what is known for sure is still very little. Parti-coloured clothing in 'livery' colours was not bound by any 'rules' that are known, even when we know the actual livery colours, exactly how they were worn is mainly conjecture and quite possibly differed between wearers and with time. I have read attempts to create such 'rules' but they are merely that – attempts. I personally feel that it is unlikely that a common practice existed. Having said that, it may be quite reasonable to assume that the followers of a particular individual or faction would have had their clothing in the same 'style' Contemporary illustrations are not particularly consistent either, what few there are, and it must be remembered that Medieval illustrators are not exactly well known for the accuracy of their depictions of military scenes. |
| AlanYork | 14 Sep 2008 9:33 a.m. PST |
Yes it's important not to be dogmatic about this period as there is so much that we don't know. A look at the Vexila site confirmed what I thought to be the case concerning flags and the Wars of the Roses though I must admit I'd not heard of Livery and Badge flags before. I knew there was a square banner that denoted the Lord's position and also a long fishtail standard with a badge and this was from where the colours of the livery jacket and their arrangement are derived. but a Livery and Badge flag is a new one on me. I think that an example of this is here; link The Lancastrian knight holding a square flag with the Beaufort portcullis is, I assume, carrying one of these Livery and Badge flags. I'm hopefully now going to be able to put together a Yorkist force without too much of the old murrey and blue as it gets a bit "samey" after a while. I'll probably build retinues for Richard Duke Of York which will double for Fauconberg (bue and white), Edward Earl of March (murrey and blue) which will double for Clarence and Good King Richard III and lastly Warwick in his red. It should look quite pretty. |
| Sweet William | 04 Mar 2010 2:21 p.m. PST |
What put the cat among the pidgeons for me was the Perry twins bringing out models with Fauconburg and Hastings in there. I now have to provide at least a token retinue for them and have to start looking up liverys and standards for them. I guess its back to Ereezywater again! |
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