"Italian Paras that fought in Operation Market Garden?" Topic

Anyone have more info on this? I have an issue of Coorte that has an article on the Camionetta and states that an Italian Para Recce group attached to the 2nd FJ had Sahariannas and fought in Operation Market Garden.

Thanks!
Doc

First I've ever heard of it, and they don't appear in the rather exhaustive OBs in e.g. Kershaw. Doesn't mean they weren't there of course, but I'm sure such an exotic unit would be fairly well known, just like Pz Ko 224, 3rd Dutch SS or the naval observation battalion.

Those paras were probably from Nembo Division. A full regiment of Nembo went over to the Germans. Most of them ended up as the cadre for the 14th Falschirm., however, at least one parachute recce company (if memory serves, also from Nembo) ended up with the 2nd Falschirm. at Market Garden. They were equipped with Italian recon vehicles but wore German uniforms.

-A.

Aurelian
'if memory serves' This is not good enough. I have read literally dozens of books on Market Garden and have never come across such a reference – this is how false information is spread – if you have references please quote them.

nice

Deep breath…again….

*sighs* Apparently The Miniatures Page has now become an Academic Journal, requiring citations and footnotes.
If you want to check the rest of my sources, you can do so when the Italian General's Guide for Panzer Korps (Con Tutto Il Cuore) is published.

"The Nembo was being trained by the Germans in Mid 1943, and much of its cadre chose to join with the Germans to form a cadre of the 4th German Parachute Division that fought at Anzio."

Madeja, "Italian Army Order of Battle, 1940-44"

I was incorrect regarding the identification of the troops in Market Garden as turncoats from Nembo. I was right that they were parachute trained, but they Twere actually part of the 10th Parachute Assault Regiment (10th Arditi), and formed a reconnaissance unit with the 2nd Parachute Division. They fought in German uniform, with Italian recon vehicles.

feldgrau.com/rsi.html

Those familiar with the Regio Esercito will remember that 10th Arditi was used in a number of commando operations in North Africa in 1942.

-A.

I have no evidence either way, but this does have the feel of something that grows with the telling. We all know the sort of thing, a few attached troops grows into a fully equiped battalion with artillery and armour support. But what the hell, a few Italians whizzing around the table does make a break from all those Panthers and King Tigers

"using Italian recon vehicles". Would these be the Saharianas or the later Lynx (Dingo copy)which was produced in 1943 and for the German occupation authorities during 1944 (acording to Italian Armoured Vehicles of World War Two, Nicola Pignato)

Regards Alan

Sergeant Ewart "'if memory serves' This is not good enough"

Aurelian "*sighs* Apparently The Miniatures Page has now become an Academic Journal, requiring citations and footnotes"

Sorry Aurelian but I'm with Sgt Ewart, without meaning any disrespect, I have no idea who you are, and the internet is too prone to people making things up which are then spread as truths.

Just because someone posts something doesn't make it so.

You just have to browse Wikipedia to know that's true, but because 'people' see it on the 'net then they are often more inclined to take it as true and less inclined to check with other sources.

Just my opinion, obviously.

This has been discussed on several occasions on the italianist yahoo group. lots of RSI troops were located in garrison positions. It is fairly well known about in Italian circles, but the unit was 'german' with an italian cadre from the recce group. The history of the recce group says it was corp troops re-allocated after the italian divisions within the corp were destroyed and fully absorbed when the italians capitulated in 1943 It is unclear if they had any italian equipment operational after returning from russia to the west.

However, there is a beretta SMG in the US airbourne museum at ST Mere Eglise. I immediately assumed it had been recovered from one of the italians during market garden because

1 they were pretty rare

2 They were given out to recce/ police troops first.

To the good Sarge and Mr Caffeine …

While I respect your opinions in this matter, and agree that much is proffered on the net as "fact" when it is nothing of the sort, I would like to point out that…

Aurelian used the key word probably in his opening sentence, and the cautionary phrase if memory serves in the third.

These are clear indications that hs isn't offering this info as "fact" but as potential leads for YOU (the reader)to track down if this info is important to you.

Asking for citations of sources is fine, but the way it was done was quite rude. That he came back and posted a number of sources is a tribute to his character.

So, if these guys were there, how many were there and where were they? A German company of which the Italians were just a cadre could mean just a couple of dozen blokes were actually Italian paras.

Dudes!
Take this kind of to Napoleonic Discussion, where it belongs! WW2 Discussion is for gentlemen, not bitchy cat-fighting over sources.

And, IF "false information is spread", what will be the result? Someone has an Italian vehicle on the table while fighting Market Garden?
Sheesh, it's not like ethylene glycol will find its way into a bath of AIDS vaccine if someone believes that there were Italian paracadutisti in the fallschirmjaegers!

Alan -

I'd love to see them as Linces (or Lynxes, if you prefer), but since I have absolutely nothing to go on other than a reference that they were using "recce" vehicles, it's probably something much more mundane. Saharianas, maybe. Could just as easily be AB-41s or AB-43s, though, depending upon how the unit ended up with the Germans. The Lynx would be a very nice surprise on the tabletop, though!

Caffeine -

I respect your viewpoint, but in deference to what has already been said, again, I was offering leads, not preparing to defend a thesis:)

Martin -

In terms of the 10th Arditi I suspect it wasn't a large number. I don't have anything like numbers available for them, but since we're talking about a single Italian regiment, veterans of the Eastern Front and in North Africa, which then went over to the Germans, I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark:

1. Since this was an Italian special operations unit, and since many Italian special operations "regiments" were rarely larger than battalions, there probably weren't very many to begin with.

2. IF they hadn't replaced losses during the "great rebuilding of 1943", my guess is that there weren't very many of them left!

3. If they DID participate in that rebuilding cycle, I'm guessing many of them weren't jump qualified.

Anyway, even if none of the above holds true, I'll agree with you. There probably weren't that many of them.

In terms of Nembo, however, the entire 185th regiment went over to the Germans, minus a few scattered loyalists, so we're talking about much larger numbers, which were later reinforced with RSI recruits. They (they being the regiment) had been operating in Northeastern Italy against Tito's partisans, so it was fairly easy for the unit to be absorbed by the Germans after the German takeover.

Seattle and John -

Ahh, sanity. It's a nice feeling;)

-Aurelian

As I said I wasn't trying to cause offence to anybody and I wasn't trying to suggest that Aurelian was attempting to spread untruths.

I was just pointing out that on t'internet many people comment on subjects on which they have no knowledge and this information is not taken as 'potential leads' but used by lazy people as fact.

I have had experience of this in a far more serious situation than my hobby and it tends to make me overly sensitive to comments like "if memory serves".

Sorry for any offence caused.

Hi Airborne Wargame Warriors
Can't remember where (I think it might have been my mother-in-law's Auntie Jessie who was a bazooka operator at Arnhem)but I recall from somewhere that a company of Japanese paratroops (Yokosuka IJN Raiders) were in at the final roundup of Frost's troops. They had travelled to Germany by submarine in order to escort home an atom bomb that the Germans had lying about spare but enjoyed the German beer so much that they decided to stay on and help their old boozing buddies.
Even more amazing is the little known fact that Royal Navy paratroops, complete with red sailor hats, were among their opponents. Well to be honest, I surmised this fact because there is a Lanchester sub-machine gun exhibited in the Hartenstein Hotel museum so therefore the Jolly Jack Tar paras must have been there.
Bet you didn't know that bazookas were used at Arnhem – well old Aunt Jessica was a member of the Air Landing Highland Horse Kilties and they were one of the few British(?) units to be issued with them as will be proved when her memoirs are published by the Fantasy Wargame press on 31st. September.
Meanwhile feel free to distribute this new found information far and wide and thereby allow wargamers to spice up their airborne assaults with all these new ingredients.
PS Anyone looking for details of the ALHHK's uniform should contact me by e-mail as the details might over-excite some members of TMP.

Yeah… sure. whatever.

Oh and since you want sources,

Nino Arena's book "I Paracadutisti" and his "Per L'Onore d'Italia" book.

You may be interested to know that a Lt. Domenico Fania was the units commander at the time of arnhem.

Hey,John of the OFM, what if some nibit wants to paint up a bunch of these guys and insert them into a game? Next they'll want to know the color of the soles of their paracadutisti jump boots and the color of their laces…leading to the inevitable question about the color inside their canteens. They'll show up on somebody's table.

and I thought Naps was bad for flaming…. its the incoming fire from the likes of Ewart that make people think twice about using the forum for simple questions and doubly about helping out.

Wow. The level of immaturity and total defiance of all logic in that response was… impressive. *rolls eyes* Apparently he also missed the actual citations.

I'm still glad to help with whatever information I have, and I won't let someone like Ewart deter me from doing so. I hope the rest of you feel the same way. Elitism is killing the hobby.

-Aurelian

Simple answer to the original question…

No there werent any.

…..if you only read english sources.

Agreed Aurelian

Sheesh, Ewart, someone piddle in your cornflakes? Pull the bug out of your backside and everything will be much better.

Back to the toys gentlmen!

doc merk,

Was that article in Coorte written by James Burd?

Someone got an Italian Para Co that they want to use in BF's forthcoming Arnhem release for next year eh? ;-)

Mat O War -

That would be a simple answer. But it would be wrong:)

-A.

Gentlemen
Hoping, at least this time, not to be harasssed and trheated for my "supposed to be" poor English ..ex..from strange people sporting the colours of my national flag in a wrong way :-)…i could contribute in confirming that i read same info about Italian paras at Arnhem…I must find sources in my bookshelfs (i'm at work at this moment). But i clearly remenber quotes from Nino Arena book..this guy, that i interviewd years ago here in Rome…while having been himself a parachutist and fought with RSI forces is the semiofficial and must appreciated Italian historian on both Folgore and RSI armed forces. In one of his books he mentioned Arnhem and also published a pict of a Sahariana car with 20mm HMG and para crew. Same info are mentioned in the multivolume "Gli ultimi in grigio verde"by Pisaṇ..another semiofficial history of RSI forces. For what concerns Beretta smg found in the museum in Normandy, i suppose that it was one specimen from the tons of small arms..former Italian Royal Army..captured after the Italian armistice or betrayal ..and distributed at Leibstandarte, 16° SS personel, Luftwaffe above all…some picts exist of German soldiers with beretta smg. also in normandy operated a few italian volunteers manning mgs ecc….retiring from italian navy or army bases in occupied France…Toulon ecc….trapped there after the armistice and having choosen to carry on the fight together with their former comrade in arms.

HI Guys

Whilst discussing Italian Paras is there a good web source on their use throughout WW2?

I am interested in lookig at any use in Desert, Russia and Italy.

Thanks

hi
i a very few words:
N. Africa: El Alamenin with folgore division..mainly in kaki ecc; some commando raid by para arditi cpny in Tunisia, Algeria aiming at destroying ground based US/GB plains.
Russia: Arditi Camionettisti from RSI.about a patrol..operating behind Soviet lines
Balkans: before september 1943 ..intense activity vs partisans
ITaly: Nembo RSI paras at Anzio and Nettuno vs allied landings, heroic defence at the gate of Rome vs British Canadian AFV/armour ..near Castel di Decima
Italian NW Frontier with France: mountain alpine warfare vs Free French partisans and regulars

A very interesting topic. Thanks to Folgore, kevanG, and of course, Aurelian.

ON the other hand, I can understand some of the dubiousness of some of the other posters – I've never heard of this and like many of you, have read lots on Market Garden. And the point about spreading false information is a very good point – but I don't think our comrades here are doing that.

And when you think of it, it's probably not that surprising; especially when you read about groups of Eastern soldiers suddenly showiing up on the beaches on D-Day, or of the careers of Germans themselves after the war.

Would the Italian paras have been in their Italian uniforms or were they, at this time, being supplied by the Germans and therefore wearing their uniforms I wonder?
--
Tim

From a picture of a group of paras operating with Germans in USSR they seem to wear German uniforms.including Feldmutze…heavily clad for winter…and Nino Arena says the same thing. Probably same fitting at Arnhem. In contrast..take into account that Italian RSI soldiers or any troop collaborating with German did all the best to retain at least some pieces of our national uniform or badges. Also Italian SS partially suceeded in that. Another matter are the equipments and weapons. Generally seen in picts with italian short barrel type muskets, MG 34, stick grenades, more beretta than MP40 and often Pz fausts…never seen picts with panzerschrecks…..i'll research more, time permitting, for the Arnhem enigma..i'm sure frequently read it on Italian sources and a dedicated article on a specialised magazine should be somewhere in my shelfs.

Whilst discussing Italian Paras is there a good web source on their use throughout WW2?

How's your Italian?

link

folgore.it

In English, here's a nice bit of info gathered together by the good folks at Bolt Action Minis:

link

"And when you think of it, it's probably not that surprising; especially when you read about groups of Eastern soldiers suddenly showiing up on the beaches on D-Day, "

Considering how many German infantry divisions in Normandy had "Ostfront" battalions, and being well documented, it's not surprising at all to read about them …unlike the Italians at Arnhem!

Folgore has omitted that The Italian co-belligerant forces had a unit of company size actually operate a combat drop in the north of Italy. It may actually have been the last "allied" combat drop in the med theatre of the war.

the RSI's X mas division were a reserve formation but a battalian of "para" defended a sector of one of the german defensive lines and were assaulted by the us/canadian ranger brigade supported by tanks at one point….and held them off….There artillary support were an adhoc artillary company with pre ww1 weapons pinched from a museum and made active weapons again. They were also supported by a single tiger at one point.

I'll check where the sources are…..

kevan G much appreciated your suggestions about my "omission"..but it's really hard to put on the same level, for me, real end true Italian paras that kept high the tradition of that regiment and the traitors that collaborated with invading US/British forces vs other Italians (like Nembo RSI paras ecc..) defending their own country. But you're correct in mentioning this unit.

Kevan G
The battle you mentioned was Castel di Decima.not reallly Anzio but a sort of a last rallying pont before Rome..of which i got all fetails, paras TOE and map..very interrsting, maybe, to simulate as a wargame. The single German tank that supported this company of hereos was a Pz IV stooped while retiring towards Rome by the OC of the Italian paras and convinced, more or less in a rude manner, to stay and fight with the paras. Aftewhile he fought well also if limited by lack of fuel and ammunition (could be simulate in your tabletop by considering no more than a couple of turns of mooving and firing). The rest of the paras succeeded in destroying /damaging a good number of ennemy AFV with mortar fire, teller mines and above all panzerfaust…

"Probably same fitting at Arnhem"

If they were in mainly German kit that is probably why they have been overlooked, particularly if they were attached to a German unit. Sahariana is pretty distinctive though.

Phew, so it sounds like I can get away with using German paras in the smaller scales then. I've got all the forces for Market Garden in 6mm and I'd hate to think I've missed a unit.

Martin -

That'd be my guess, too. But it would be tempting to do up a few in bits of Italian camo, since the Germans had acquired a load of it anyway due to various "operations";)

I still haven't confirmed what sorts of vehicles they have. I've got two different unsourced claims, one of which says it was a Sahariana equipped unit, the other of which claims they were using "armored cars" (which, as you know, could be anyhing, but my money would be on AB-41s or, very possibly, AB-43s..).

At any rate, that's probably why they were overlooked!

-Aurelian

Aurelian…i'm quite sure, confirmed also from the existing pict. that i've seen, about their only using of SPA43 Sahariana…some of them remained in Italy also and a single one ..close to Via Nazionale exactly in the center of Rome was the very last military unit to open fire vs US Recon AFV which were entiring to liberate the Eternal city now open and free of German troops…with the result to be knocked out by a Grant tank.. .they belonged to the arsenal of Arditi Camionettisti…a unit formed by paras….AB41 belonged only to Cavalry units and Bersaglieri unit of the Amoured division (lancieri di Montebello in Tunisia ecc…)

Good to know that italian politics is alive , well and still looking at honourable support to a fascist ally opposed to legitamite government turncoats as being traitors to one side or other. I respect the position that both sides found themselves in and dont consider either side to be traitors to italy, only to Mussolini or an allied dominated absentia government and that I can understand.

It reflects on the quality of both sides with credit.

The paratroopers in operation herring were some of the same italian paratroops who fought at alemein and in sicily and created the honour of the folgore and nembo. It seems a bit harsh to actually dismiss the very men who created the honour in the name you use on this forum.

It's hard to accept such a version. Folgore paras members tried in every way to defend their country after US/GB landings in Sicily…and where boicotted and diverted all over Italy to not allow them to fight..by the Royal HQ..that was plannig , before the armistice, to side with the allies. Those same paratroopers where ambushed and shoton by other paras (the one who side with the traitor king), in Sardinia where they had been "exiliated" in order not to allow them to fight..and that, before the signing of the armistice. So the idea of calling "folgorini" the paras in operation Herring that did'nt fought in Sicily (in reality the fight was in Calabria and not by those paras) and, worst, volunteered to fight vs their former, and reliable until last, Gernman forces in Italy….is only a rethoric and inadecuate vision of history.

Well, that's an amusing take on it.

amusing?

Anyway i consider out of topic a talking, also if very interesting, about collaboration in an occupied country during WW2. Always better, for what is my passed experience in this forum and in general in dedicated miniature sites, to stick to questions connected with TOE, uniforms, maps and suggestion to reproduce tabletop versions of actaul fights. The swifting to personal thoughts is often seen as "politics" and maybe it's not the case here. I'll, time permitting, made some reaserch on presense on Italian troops in Arnhem. I consider that it could be possible. German Army often had, inside their own units, foreign personel..also in case of units normaly composed only by Germans. I read and heard from quite reliable sources that Italian soldiers where "recruited" by SS Leibstandarte Div. during his tour of antipartisan activity in northern Italy and those personel followed the division when they travelled north. Also the 1 st Para Div. in Cassino employed some Italians…until some years ago an Iron Cross decorated Italian Fallschirmjager, who personally destroyed Allied tanks, was still alive in Naples. Some company level overspecialised Italian personnel was a very important component of AA ("fog units") defence in Baltic sea province until 1945. So i think that everything is possible about "supposed to be" foreign allied of the Germans. A last anecdote (deeply mentioned in a book from a RSI veteran)tells about a company size "Milice" unit from Vichy France, who had retired in Italy (Turin aerea), still equipped within blue uniform and french/captured weapons that fought until last..alongside Black Brigade RSI forces against Italian partisans..in Italy!…Is'nt it suprising ?

Folgore (and the rest of you), anything you can dig up and reference about these Paras at Arnhem would be very interesting, so please keep it coming.