"Osprey War Elephants..." Topic

That's the wrong shade of grey for an African elephant.

Not if you catch him in just the right light, field of flowers in the background, a picnic laid out before him, lovely really.

I don't know anyone who doesn't like a war elephant.

The guy standing in the way of one, maybe.

Still waiting for a way to get Elephants on the table with my Vikings :)

Now show me a book with that, and I am there.

This one says you can:

picture

The left ear on the third elephant is 4mm too long and 11 mm too whide.
VR
James Mattes

Wonder if these are covered:
picture

VR
James Mattes

Wow the War Elephants on the cover of the new Osprey catalog would look great in the Fields of Glory supplement of Asia (Far East, SE Asia and India).

Prejudice ! Why not a volume covering all military animals ?
I'll just go over to their website and tick on 'Non-Human Warriors (Pre-Feudal)'.
Dervel – Charlemagne did his best to get Abu Abaz, his elephant, in the fight with King Godofrid of the Danes – enough for a wargame there.

I'm guessing it will be a nice picture book to compliment "War Elephants" by John M. Kistler.

link

I'm sorry, but the elephants pictured on the Osprey book look like Heritage 25mm Selucids.

It always amazes me that artists have to upscale the size of elephants to ludicrous proportions. James posts an actual photo of a mid sized Asian female elephant.. compare the size of this beast to the gargantuan 20 foot long beasts depicted on the Osprey cover, with towers the size of small houses- larger beasts I reckon than Woolly Mammmoths.
I am hoping the text of the Osprey is less full of historical holes than John Kistler's book, but looking at the cover and going to the Wild Animal Park, where I can actually see Asian and African Savannah elephants, in person in relationship to real humans…. it shocks me that artists and sculptors just don't bother to do the same.

On the other hand I am going to give the artist credit for trying to get the ears correct.
JJ

Ogdenlulimus,

Rudy is talking about the cover of the new Osprey catalog not the cover of the book.

I'm reading Kistler's book now. I was thinking, "Wow, I can't believe Osprey doesn't have a war elephant book." Looks like I spoke too soon. The Osprey title should be a very nice compliment. Kistler is more interested in the history of the elephant, rather than the specific armor and equipment used.

JJ, could you elaborate on the historical holes in Kistler's book? My expertise is limited to Roman/Celtic military history, so I'm not able to spot any problems outside of that subject.

Yes I was referring to the catalog that came in a few weeks ago for 2009. The cover of the pre-production flyers sent to distributors is not always the one which is used in production.

I enjoyed the Kistler book, although I know others don't. Not sure how much Kistler knows about warfare but he seems to understand the psychology of the elephant and how they affect people and other animals.

Do we need a war elephant board?

Andrew

I'll probably get it. And the Ancient Siege Warfare book too.

I also enjoyed the Kistler book and pretty much felt as "Offer and Honor" :-) does about his writing. Worth reading at any rate IMHO.

I stil search a historic more specific information to the war elefant attack mentioned at the k9 webpage:

link

with only the following sentence:

"There is a "war story" told, how during the Burma campaign, Captain Norton's famous British mule company, while carring rations down a jungle track, were charged by a small band of Japanese soldiers mounted on elephants. "

This would be a cavalry attack at WWII some years after the Polish cavalry attck against German tanks but I don´t find any historical evidence about it.

Werner G. Elb aka Samurai Elb

Kistler: Page 146
"After about ten years, King Philip of greece was beginning to doubt the benefits of his alliance with Rome. In secret (says Polybius), he built a strong army, but his death in 179BC left the army to his half-brother Perseus."

Perseus was Philip's son…

Kistler: Page 34 Hydaspes
"Most of the elephants carried wooden towers with a trio of archers or javelin hurlers. King Porus rode an elephant but did not use a howdah. He wore a remarkable suit of smor and did not need the extra protection of a tower. Arrian implies that elephants with wooden howdahs were placed on the wings because Alexander had more than one thousand horse-mounted archers."

I don't know where to start..
Coins, the Alexander medallions, and contemporary Indian artwork do not show war elephants with towers, so the assumption that "most" of them had these at the Hydaspes is a bit of a stretch.

King Porus had remarkable armor, but I doubt he would have eschewed a tower if it was practical, or normal…. part of the psychology of elephants is bigness- as Kistler explains over and over… why would Porus wish to appear smaller?

Porus most likely rode an untowered beast because the rest of his elephant corps did not have towers.

Arrian "implies" nothing in regards to towers, this is total fabrication. He directly states the Indian plan was to lure the enemy into the gaps between the elephants and have them turn in a trample the enemy.

These are some of factual errors that diminish the good parts of this book… I actually don't have the time to document them all…it's one thing to get things wrong, but to just fill in the blanks with made up stuff?

Perseus was Philip V's half-brother? A quick look in any modern source would have solved this error… but instead the reference is footnoted to a 1914 text?
JeffJ

Samurai Elb -

And unlike that Polish attack on German tanks, the elephant attack, I'll bet, actually happened!;)

Sorry, have to defend my Polish friends where I can. Good people:)

-A.

As this is an election year I would request equal time for donkeys.

'Conclusions' on howdahs,and elephant armour,are best avoided.Lack of evidence, is not the base for any such conclusions.----Every 'ten cents'has value,and this is mine.
War elephant go back hundreds of years before Alexander.(fact1)Why then did it so long to realise that the howdah was a 'perfect'fighting platform,this coming from a highly intellegent/inventive culture.
(fact2)Armour on elephants is recorded in writing,'a night time attack,by Chandragupta'.The armour was lightweight, cork and wood,showing a sophistication towards silent commando tactics.
Ten cent opinion based on facts 1 and 2= yes Alexander faced elephants with both howdahs and metal armour.Interestingly enough historynet comment on Alexander and the howdah at Hydaspes.
link the-hydaspes-river

(fact1)Why then did it so long to realise that the howdah was a 'perfect'fighting platform,this coming from a highly intellegent/inventive culture.
-------------------------------------------------------
What an amazing fact. I never have heard this fact. I'll put it along with the other list of facts I have learned here along with the fact of Egyptian / Indian history.

Hope this helps,(fact1)War elephants go back hundreds of years before Alexander.
(fact2)Armour on elephants is recorded in writing.
'You can put these where ever you keep your facts'.

Well based on what I have learned here it looks like I can certainly put some elephants into a few battles with my Vikings, as long as they don't have any of those silly towers on them :)

Macmorn… Chandragupta is after Alexander…and yes cork and non-metal armor is noted in the Mauryan period- which is not the army of Porus.
I said nothing about armor.. I said towers… Kistler writes that Arrian says there were towers.. that is not in Arrian, therefore it is made up.

I'm not saying that the Indians in this period never used towers in warfare, in fact there are many other armies that Alexander never reached. I'm am saying there is no evidence, either visual or textual, of towers until after the time of Porus.

When somebody writes a book and states that "Arrian implies that towers were used on the flanks", he might as well be making it up.. which he is.

What would really be swell would be some text about how Seleucus brought a towered elephant from Chandragupta, as part of the force at Ipsus, and this led to the spread of towers, and preceded Pyrrhus's towered elephants against Rome… but that text has gone missing… maybe in the bonfires of the vanities…. but we don't have that convenient text, and the first towered elephant that shows up in art turns up in Italy, not India.

JJ

JJ,

You in particular write that he "fabricated" and "made stuff up". Have you or anyone else contacted the author regarding these issues?

I would hope that you or someone else as knowledgeable would do so. Or at the least write a review at amazon.com as right now it's a 5 star, 1 review book.

People missed my dig at Osprey I think. What I meant was I don't expect the Osprey to be much better but at the least we'll have pretty pictures to look at with that book.

War Elephants book and a Chariot book.

what next?

pikemen through the ages?

Why the #@!%*&#!! is this on the 18th Century boards.

I'm just askin', that's all.

Hi Der Alte,

"through to their use in the 19th century by the armies of South-East Asia". Maybe Clive of India and all that? Would be fun to have a late Moghul army…

Simon

All I can say is I hope the Osprey book is more factual.
Kistler's book is entertaining, but full of holes, some of which I documented. I don't like to tear into stuff (except Vendel miniatures :) online, but maybe it would be a good idea to write a review for Amazon.
JJ

Appreciate what your saying JJ. Any evidence coming this way, I will share.--I have no doubt that the tower in Italy,was a revelation,and as such historically commented upon.-In Asia however, it was,and had been for some time,common-place.-The time span between Porus and Chandragupta,was not great,as such,it is reasonable to assume the inovations for war were established before either.- Better historical recordings came with Chandragupta,but are not commented upon as 'new findings' or 'leaps' of inventions in war.
Apologies to Condottiere for tangent shift.

I still like the story of the elephant in the Roman invasion of the U.K. in 49BC (?)

VR
James Mattes

Image of war elephant from Angkor Wat (modern reproduction from the original bas relief)

picture

no tower – not even a seat

Gaz

Not uncommon for nations in that region to have the mahout mounted last behind the primary fighter. This makes sense as the mahout is no longer the primary target of the enemy shooting at the mounted fighters in front.

I've got the Kistler book. He seems a little too keen on elephants to be that objective at times.

Also….theres a bit about war elephants in Syria circa 1500BC- why ain't they in the army lists!!!!????

Were there any elephants used by the British or French India companies during the SYW?

Certainly by the British. Not sure about the French

I received the Osprey War Elephants book last week.
The text is clear and precise and conclusions are based on evidence, rather than whim.
The illustrations are very nice, seen in person, I felt the images looked a bit dodgy online, I was mistaken.

On the whole this shorter book is way better than Kistler's volume of fabrications, (which are often caused by his over zealousness for the subject, still that's no excuse to just invent things without expressing such things as opinion).

I find this Osprey a worthy addition to my Osprey stash.
JJ

I've attempted a review of the new Osprey War Elephant book on my blog.

link

tim
madaxeman.com

link- link

Kistler is accusing Osprey of plagiarism.

"Just to be straightforward about this, I am the author of War Elephants by Praeger, published 3 years ago, about 350 pages long. Mine was the first english language book on this subject."

-------> Wow! Such an ill fated diatribe… first off the statement "Mine was the first english language book on this subject", goes directly against the pioneering work by H. H. Scullard, whose book "The Elephant in the Greek and Roman World" is mostly Kistler's source for the ancient period.. includes all of the same arguments, is factual, AND it was written in English, in 1974.

I doubt anybody that wishes to sue based on the title will win. The arguement about word for word copying I will leave to the lawyers to wrangle….
JJ

I'm not buying it unless Jeff assures me that it is sufficiently comprehensive to cover elephant silent commando tactics.

Allen

"elephant silent commando tactics"….. no but there is a whole chapter on how to make 'dummy' elephants out of canvas and rigging, pushed about by farmers, so the Recon FW-190's can photograph them massing opposite of Calais.
JJ

Hi everyone.
I found this site by accident while Google searching my book War Elephants (Praeger 2005).
I was surprised to see the harsh review on Amazon and see now that it came from a member here.
I was a librarian for 12 years, and spent 5 years of research on the book. It would not be surprising if there are some errors. JJArtist seems to think that some errors mean the book is "full of fabrications."
I suspect that if any of you spent 5 years on a book, with 35 pages of footnotes, your conclusions and even some citations are questionable.

I am happy to discuss elephants in warfare if you wish. It has been a few years so I may not remember everything, but elephants are certainly my favorite subject. It is possible also, as one poster said, that my bias for elephants showed. I do not deny that possibility.

As for the Osprey book, I am going over the copied passages (around 50% of the book in my opinion) with their editors now.

As for my having the first book on the subject in English, that remains true. My subject was the entire history of war elephants. Scullards book was highly valuable but focused only on the ancient period. The only other book (until Nossov's Osprey this year) like mine was a French book 150 years ago, never translated into English.

I offered to write the Osprey book 4 years ago, they never replied, and then hired Nossov. As near as I can tell, Nossov has no elephant experience, though perhaps his military history experience is better. His sections on medieval to modern Asian elephants is more detailed than mine, and the illustrations are great. But practically everything about ancient to Tamerlane is from my book.

I am happy to discuss issues with everyone as long as the discussions are civil. No reason to waste time reacting to flamers and such. Nothing can be done to convince those who have already made up their minds.

Perhaps in the future I can do a second edition of War Elephants and fix up some of the errors you guys note! I am happy to change things when the opportunity arises. I did change several things in the new Bison paperback reprint of War elephants, though I don't think I had heard about the Perseus problem then.

Have a good day,
John Kistler

I can think of more than a couple of previous posters on this thread who have spent five years of research on a book!

Allen

"I was a librarian for 12 years, and spent 5 years of research on the book. It would not be surprising if there are some errors. JJArtist seems to think that some errors mean the book is "full of fabrications."
I suspect that if any of you spent 5 years on a book, with 35 pages of footnotes, your conclusions and even some citations are questionable."

I gave the book an average review, based on the many conclusions that are passed off as facts that conveniently fit the thesis. Fabrications are when an author makes up sources, or uses sources (like Polyaenus) without criticism.

Arrian does not mention elephant towers in his Anabasis of Alexander at Hydaspes…. therefore stating such is a fabrication. The convoluted explanation of why Porus did not use a tower is even more curious.

This passage to me seems more a description of Oliver Stone's movie about Alexander, than any textual or archeological evidence reagarding Porus' elephants:

Page 34:
"All of the elephants wore fire-hardened leather and quilted armor for protection. Their forehead and trunks bore iron plate to block against enemy arrows. Most of the elephants carriedwooden towers with a trio of archers or javelin hurlers. King Porus rode an elephant, but he did not use a howdah. He wore a remarkable suit of armor and did nto need the extra protection of a tower. Arrian implies that elephants with wooden towers were placed on the wings because Alexander had more than one thousand horse-mounted archers. Porus wanted his archers in the elephant towers to keep the Greek horse archers from threatening the flanks."

The allusion to bastions in the elephant line is not a reference to war towers at all… as stated by *H. H. Scullard it is a literary device to describe the elephants as towers, and the infantry line as the wall, that is buttressed. (The Elephant in the Greek and Roman World, page 70). Peter Green "Alexander of Macedon, 356-323 B.C., page 396).

Kautilya describes elephant armor in his treatise the Arthaúâstra , which was written somewhat after Porus' time…. and as far as I can remember does not mention war towers….

Dr. Frank R. Holt in his wonderful book "Alexander the Great and the mystery of the Elephant Medallions", points out in passing (page 19), that much of the noted "towers" alluded to Porus are based on "Romance" histories… some of which also point out that Porus had 14800 scythed chariots, and the elephant towers carried 30 men.
JJ