"Georgia and Russia" Topic

Don't think so. It would be less trouble to 'Finalndise' Georgia.

If people are going to do things like buy Russian oil and gas, they need to trust Russia. If she's not trusted to play nice, she won't be getting much in the way of business.

…CA territory

I found this on on the Yahoo Modern Wargamers site.
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Caucasus region topographic maps
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And a good discution on TO&E and O of B Data on Georgia.
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And on Tank Net as well.
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Robert Henry

OB North Caucasus Military District
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Geoff – and wouldn't it be nice if we had a CA to comment about this on.

"…CA territory"

The entire world is "CA territory."

You do have a CA. It's called the Blue Fez.

We have already discussed the intention to try and restrict this thread to factual movements and equipment, not delve into the politics behind it.

i'm interested in the politics behind it all too. But after all the fuss from last time, I'd say this is not the place to discuss it.

Hmm… an invite only forum where (if history is any guide) people whose politics disagree with that of the moderator are hounded and victimised.

I'll stick with the Yahoo group.

But you're right, I'll try to keep things factual.

Saw a panel on CSPAN on Wed. Night that I did not get time to comment on yesterday.
The panel included Ralph Peters and several others discussing the attack and the ramifications thereof. However since that will be CA territory I will limit my comments to the rundown of the Georgian Army by the US Defense Department coordinator who was stationed at the US embassy in Tbilisi. His name is Lt. Col Robert Hamilton IIRC.

Basically the Georgian Army consisted of 4 Brigades reporting directly up through to the Chairman of the Joint Staff. A 5th Brigade was forming and the parts already formed were stationed around Gori (Tank and Artillery). The 4th Brigade is stationed around Tbilisi the others are strung out along the cities along the main highway in an east to west axis. 3rd brigade is in Kutasi and has not really been involved since its Infantry was in Iraq. 2nd Brigade is in Senaki and has been subjected to numerous air attacks. The main brunt of the fighting seems to have involved two "peacekeeping" forces in South Oseetia and Abkahzia and the 1st Brigade stationed at Gori. The 1st Brigade seems to have been the primary force moving into S. Ossetia. Also coming under attack were elements of a light infantry battalion and a headquarters (possibly 5th Bgds) along the coast at Batumi.
The Army and Military in general has very low level Command and control capability. Not to say they can control units at low level but to say they have very little in the way of it. They are mainly using off the shelf communication equipment with low level encryption. The General and command staff are rather young with Col and Generals in their early 30's and company commanders in their mid 20's.
The Georgian Air Force has one Squadron of Ground Attack aircraft (SU-25's IIRC) at least one other Squadron of aircraft (SU fighters??) and a number of Helicopter squadrons. Most of these are transport or observation helicopters however they do have one squadron of MI-24 HIND and even more recently a UH-1 squadron.

Contrary to some of the statements on this thread the US has only trained one of the Army brigades and only the Infantry element at that. The decision was made by US command to train the Infantry in Urban warfare and Counterinsurgency only and avoid training the supporting Armor and Artillery units in large scale maneuver warfare to avoid political issues with the Russians. As Georgia contributed an initial contingent to Iraq the training was part of the normal course of action. When the US initiated the surge into Iraq the Georgians volunteered to send additional troops to that campaign and that resulted in a second wave of troops from the 3rd brigade being trained and deployed to Iraq.

Their overall ability seems to be acceptable at low levels but very little ability to coordinate actions across larger task oriented units and little if any ability to communicate with their supporting Air force units. The US trained units had proven themselves very capable of fighting in the low intensity actions that preceded this conflict in Georgia and Iraq however it remains to be seen if they actually contributed to the fighting. One would guess they remained around Tbilisi if they were present at all and not completely in Iraq.
I would speculate that the abandoned armor on the Tbilisi to Gori road belongs to the recently formed 5th Brigade.

Is there any indication that the US/NATO has also provided/assisted with any equipment, or is it just training?

Hmm… an invite only forum where (if history is any guide) people whose politics disagree with that of the moderator are hounded and victimised.

I'll stick with the Yahoo group.

Ummmm……not really, the blue fez isn't invite only just send bill a PM (to tell him you want to join) and you're in.

So far both sides are freely and forcibly giving their views with out any problems, maybe because all the guys who hounded and victimised other TMPers are all on the Yahoo group instead.

It looks like the training has all been COIN as said, maybe in the future Georgia will be training to combat the main threat instead of counter insurgency.

prolly mentioned earlier in the thread, but Ivan is saying they have "discovered a huge weapon stash" (probably in a Georgian army armoury)that consists of "American weapons" M16's (prolly M4 carbines)to the total of 1300 weapon systems. They are playing this up.

Wow. An entire battalions worth of kit. Knock me down with a feather.Sounds pretty incriminating….not.

I loved the US Ambassador earlier defending the sale of Patroits to Georgia on radio 4.
The interveiwer was saying that russia might be "justified in fearing those missiles being used against them".
Theyre freaking SAM's. All he had to do was say "there freaking SAM's, whats georgia going to do? throw them on a ballistic arc accross the border into a feild?" Sheesh!

The US weapons were captured in Senaki most likely in preperation for rearming and training the 2nd brigade. Just small arms and in keeping with the precident already set no big shock.

Just FYI. The current Georgia (US) National guard troops that have been deploying to train the Georgians are from my area and in fact my younger brother was possibly going to transfer to one of the companies. His unit is currently slated for Iraq in 09 but if this thing goes further who knows.

Well if this dose not count as a war crime, then what dose?

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I wounder if tis is the same Hysterical Turkish TV reporter?

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And here are some ACRV's.

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Someone needs to produce a nice looking female report and camera crew for this one!

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"links do funny things to my computer………ACK"

Like What?

Quick question – why do Russian armour and helicopters have "MC" in yellow over a blue background? Just curious.

Well if this dose not count as a war crime, then what dose?

Hmm, it's in the Sun. Probably turn out to be Birmingham (no offence meant to Brummies!). Problem is, it gets very difficult to visually identify Russians from Georgians from South Ossetians…

I loved the US Ambassador earlier defending the sale of Patroits to Georgia on radio 4…

I think it's Poland, not Georgia, who is requesting Patriot as part of their deal. Potentially, the Patriot could be used to engage aircraft. As Russia has said, "what would you say if we wanted to put our missile systems in Mexico?"

BBC are still reporting that Russian troops are seeking out and destroying Georgian military equipment. But no, not really much surprise that US weapons have been found.

Someone needs to produce a nice looking female report[er] and camera crew for this one

Got one, should be out soon: war correspondents (15mm film crew plus photographers)

Actually, journalists seem to have come under fire a few times. A BBC crew was shot at the other day (although I doubt the aircraft engaging could identify the target as being press), a female journalist was hit (looks like a ricochet rather than a direct shot) and a Turkish press team has just been shown being fired on in their car. The Turks were hit and taken into custody by Russian troops, but have now been returned to Turkey.

why do Russian armour and helicopters have "MC" in yellow over a blue background?

Possibly some sort of battalion ID – got a link to a photo/video?

OK- just a quick translation here "MC"- Mirotvorcheskie sily"- peacekeeping forces.

Precision guided munition?

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Allen

Precision guided munition?

Anything to make you think that wasn't the intended target? :-)

"MC" marking on a BTR.

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RUSSIAN 58th RED ARMY COMMANDER Gen.Lt. KHRULYOV DEADLY WOUNDED BY GEORGIANS

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Time to do a roll for unit moral?

Over view:

Russia #01 – News : war in Ossetia – 09.08.2008
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Russia #02 – News : war in Ossetia – 09.08.2008
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Russia #03 – News : war in Ossetia – 10.08.2008
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Russia #04 – News : war in Ossetia – 11.08.2008
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Russia #05 – News : war in Ossetia – 11.08.2008
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And
Bombardment, the Russian escort, the Georgian artillery
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Some new film footage up on the net.

Russian-Georgian War In Abkhazia
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Short scenes from the war in Abkhazia (Georgia)
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Some naval stuff here.
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"Time to do a roll for unit moral?"

It might go up.

I believe the attack on Khrulev's column by the Georgian spetznaz was on the 10th? Basically according to Russian reporters on the scene he was taking reporters on the ride with minimum escort when they were ambushed on some secondary dirt road. Russians spotted georgians and jumped out- a pretty intence firefight began with general himself shooting a couple of attackers. Georgian were beat back with the some arriving help. I believe Russians suffered one officer(major) killed, and several soldiers killed/wounded.
General was wounded, transported to the hospital- condition stable. One of the wounded reporters recalled an moment when he bumped in a Georgian spetznaz and yelled- I am a reporter! Georgian yelled back- I am a killer! and put a round in his shoulder. Somebody shot Georgian dead.
There are speculations that somebody was informing georgians on the column movements inside cleared territory- hence the ambush of THAT particular column. It is also speculated that it was a kidnapping attempt on the general.

Precision guided munition?

Okay, what is that thing? It's frickin' large.
-Kle.

The Russian officer( Dennis Vetchinov) that was killed during ambush on Khrulev's column was just postumoniusly decorated with Hero of Russia order. Several reporters credit him with saving their lives- the reporter shot in the shoulder- Alex Kotz. NTV/ Russia

"Okay, what is that thing? It's frickin' large."

It's actually an aerial bomb. Just happened to land on that police car in the port of Poti.

Allen

…still reckon they could have been aiming at coppers..

It is a georgian cab. I am trying to figure out what that THINg is…

Well it seems that, contrary to the ceasefire agreement to withdraw, BBC are reporting Russian troops have moved to a position only 30 miles from Tbilisi.

indeed they are – they've also been shopping at the Georgian bases (from Sydney Morning Herald)- when it heats up again I wonder if they'll need US airpower to root them out of their positions:

"The Russian Army has seized 100 Georgian armoured vehicles, including 65 tanks and five ground-to-air missile launchers, in operations near South Ossetia.

The equipment included 15 light armoured vehicles, Colonel Igor Konashenkov, of the Russian infantry staff said yesterday.

Most of the armoured vehicles had been manufactured in Ukraine, he said. An unspecified number of US-made troop transporters had also been found.

D-30 cannons and Czech-manufactured artillery systems also featured on the list of material recovered.

In addition, soldiers seized about 2000 firearms, "both Soviet and American made," and "a large quantity of munitions" for both light arms and tanks, Colonel Konashenkov said. He also said Russian forces had destroyed 21 of the 65 seized Georgian tanks because they were "unusable".

The armoured vehicles were 1970s-era "Soviet-made T-72s but they had been repaired and modernised not long ago in Ukraine", he said.

The troop transports "also have been extensively modernised by Ukrainian businesses".

"It is a georgian cab."

Trust the reporter who captioned the photo not to know the difference between a police car and a cab!!

I see on one report, Georgian Dana SPGs along the roadside were identified as APCs…

Allen

Thanks for all the great links to the multitude of videos from this conflict.

This should go down in history as the "You Tube War".

I am having a hard time figuring out which side is in the particular video that I'm watching at that moment.

Usually I look to see who is posting it to get a clue.

Thanks for the updates.

Joep

I think identification is a major problem. Between Russians, Georgians and South Ossetians all running about all over the place, dressed in similar uniforms and armed with an equally similar variety of weaponry, I'm not convinced the reporters are always aware who it is they are filming!

Talking of cabs, did you catch the photo of the BMP with the 'cab' yellow sign stuck on the front?

Not only it is hard to identify the troops on the links- some are definitely NOT of the current conflict but of the Georgian civil war in 1990s. Somebody did post it on Youtube without reading Russian captions.
I seriously doubt it will heat up again- it seems that Georgians have no stomach to fight.I would give Russians another week to wreck and seize all sorts of equipment- if they stay longer than that it will definitely be occupation- however they do have a 6 month "permission" according to seizefire protocol #5 to "Implement security operations outside of South Ossetia"…
I do have to point out too that a lot of Georgian TV was wildly off the mark in the beginning of conflict with numbers and even names…

I believe the rationale for the US training of Georgian troops originally wasn't Iraq related but linked to the suggested (not proven AFAIK) presence of AQ linked Chechen fighters operating out of the Pankisi Gorge – infantry intensive anti-terror ops. The reports I've seen suggested that the combined arms ops training was conducted by ex -IDF staff.

This may be of interest to some – suggested order of battle on orbat.com for the Russian forces in Georgia.
PDF link

Thanks, Hunyadi- seems like PDF link is all you need here for modern warfare gamers. If only Orbat can post same for georgians…

No problem sergeis. Suspect the orbat editor Ravi will have them for paid subscribers – I bought the orbats from the site a few years back and found them cheaper and more detailed than Brassey's Military Balance at the time.

The Georgian Ministry of Defence Strategic Defence Review for 2007 is online and details some organisation tables (it's not all in Georgian script) – their planning and expectations in 2007 makes for interesting reading considering last fortnight or so. TOEs may not have survived very long once hostilities started.

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Makes interesting reading. In the photo near the front they look very much like US troops, but armed with AKs.
(Page numbers refer to PDF page, not document page)
Page 34: Looking very much like US troops.
Page 37: Is that an old 106mm RCL?
Page 38: Again, looking much like US troops, Hummer, body armour, kevlar helmet – just the AK

For those of you interested in reading more, the English kicks in at page 60, Orbats at page 88

The IDF connection received some attention on debka.com but was bolstered by reporting on more respected Israeli journals. I don't think that anuone is denying that Israeli PMCs were involved in training the Georgians in battalion level infantry tactics, urban warfare and special forces stuff though maybe not in the 100's suggested by some. Sample links below.

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There are also reports that projected sales of IMI hardware were frozen or limited to defensive kit when Moscow complained directly to the Israeli government…

How about that for what-ifs? Would a brigade's worth of Georgian Merkava IIs have made a difference?

That is some IF! Merkavas are not cheap by any means- georgians just do not have nowwhere near that amount of money unless IDF is feeling generous and just gives them away. Secondly you need to have PHD to operate it- Georgians would have really tough time with that too.
Besides it seems that Hezbollah had no problems in taking them out with AT- so IMHO a waste of money…

;-) indeed it is. Some of the Israeli trainers were less impressed with some of the Georgian units than the links in my last post so your point rings true. The money side depends on how much faith you put in the association some make with regional energy politics – that'snot for this forum. One assumes though that NATO and others will be enabled in the aftermath of this conflict to assist in re-arming Georgia. They'll be replacing old S ovietkit faster than the strategic review anticipated…..

OK at the risk of creeping into CA territory- how do you teach cat to bark- ie replace ex Soviet kit with all western one. As is, just judging by pics georgian army is a munitions nightmare- elite troops have all western gear with M-4, M-16, secondaries have a mix of ex Soviet and Western, and reservists have all ex soviet equip. And now they got zip, maybe even bubkus. And they do not have any money. basically whoever is planning to outfit them anew- goodsky lucksky! :-)
BTW- I have not seen a single pic of Georgians in any kind of body armor- except the unit in Iraq that is all just warm bodies with fossilized Ak-47, but decked out in full US kit. troops in Georgia are shown in harnesses that are $19.99 USD at Cheaper than Dirt. Not even a scout LBH with front ballistic plates only- Oh well…

Okay, what is that thing? It's frickin' large.

After looking around some, I think it might be part of an SS-21.
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