"Georgia and Russia" Topic

Report on the operation by Abkhazia forces and end of hostilities in the Kodori Gorge region:

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Good report giving some in-depth history of the region (note: from a Russian perspective):

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Russia is using the following as propaganda:

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Honestly don't know why this is making the rounds in Russian media, it was widely known that the US ane Georgia just completed a joint excercise a few weeks ago.

Wow some of those Abkhazia speical forces in cold warriors first link look umm quite mature. I'm assuming speical forces doesn't quite mean the same thing in the Abkhazia army as it does in the British army. Looked more like dads army than the S.A.S. No actually pictures of fighting in that link either, every where looked deserted might explain thier low KIA numbers.

Never underestimate experience when it comes to fighting against a conscript…

Both Abkhazian and Ossetian "special forces" primary consist of veterans of 1990s fights, who were, in turn, veterans of Afghanistan campaigns or just served in Russian paratroopers/marines/etc, plus there's a number of former sportsmen. These guys are quite tough actually, many of them have constant experience in skirmishers on the border.

Some preliminary info on operation details I got from radio&blogs.

Georgians were aware of the possibility that Russia can move via tunnel between North and South Ossetia (ok, you have to be a complete idiot if you don't take it into account, as it is the only way). The plan of the offense had a goal of blocking the tunnel at the end of 08.08. (there was a map, where four objectives were marked). During the fight in the first half of 08.08. Georgians have completed two objectives, almost completed the third (complete control of Tshinvali) and were on the way to complete 4th – blocking the tunnel. However, even that Ossetians militia was hit hard during the shelling and tank attack at night and day, a significant part of them was assembled halfway between Tskhinvali and tunnel. They had even tanks and artillery here. Most likely they communicated with Russian forces in North Ossetia, and attacked Georgian avantguard that was moving by the road, so Ossetians secured positions, protecting the tunnel and the way to Tskhinvali. Therefore, 58th army was able to join the battle. Later on, Georgians sent several special forces groops to blow up the tunnel – and Georgian media even reported it destroyed once – but the groops were intercepted and destroyed by Ossetians.
During the initial advance Russians were still not sure if the troops should be used for direct confrontation with Georgian army, I guess the idea was that Ossetians should do it themselves. SO that's the reason that the city was still suffering artillery and air strikes on 09.08. However it became clear that Ossetians would not be able to clear the heights from artillery, later that night Georgians tried a night assault with MBT and APC that Oseetians didn't have the strength to repell, so Russians MBT moved into the fight, and from early morning Russian artillery started massive strikes on the heights to protect the city and soldiers of 58th….

to be continued…

Sergeis – all I was saying is that there may be a difference between how Georgians fight for South Ossetia compared to Tblisi.

I'm wary of the competance of many reporters to comment on military affairs, especially as many caught up in this will just be whomsoever happens to be there since the situation flared up quickly.

Hence reports of one or two abandoned AFVs doesn't mean a rout. Reports of more than that do – and it does seem the Georgians did get a thorough pasting.

That is if discussing the morale of an army doesn't contravene the unwritten rules here… :)

As I mentioned, it does seem as if the Russians here acted very professionally. Certainly better than Chechnya.

I'm wary of the competance of many reporters to comment on military affairs

I've seen loads of photos identifying MT-LBs as anything from a transport, to an APC to a tank!

if discussing the morale of an army doesn't contravene the unwritten rules here

You can discuss what you like :-D

I'm just suggesting we should keep it to facts and equipment, and away from things that stray too far into CA territory. Bit 0f common sense and avoid getting into too many debates on the whys and wherefores should be acceptable. It's always going to be a fine line. I think (on the whole) we've done a good job so far to stay objective.

They do appear to have learnt from their experiences in Chechnya.

Well to be honest they had a lot to learn, though people tend to forget they did eventually win there.

ITN in Gori are reporting at least one armoured column of Russians are in the town and show no intention of leaving, which would contradict the ceasefire agreement.

Also there are reports of bands of armed men in uniforms with no insignia (believed to be South Ossetian militia)engaging in arson, looting and murders.

ITN reporter said he can't confirm any of this, however he can see that an awful lot of fires have been started today by the smoke in the distance.

Barin,

you got some really good pictures of russian tanks in the news ? Maybe a T80U…I HAve an imprint T80U that need a repainting and the last batch of my old order of Geoof T80BV pressing for painting… And I would like to have some good picutres (maybe with unit numbers and the likes etc etc… until now I have seen pretty poor shots from a modelling point of view).

Media reports continue to come in of Russian troops passing through Gori and heading south on the Gori-Tbilisi highway. Recent update coming from a Belgian journalist with video:

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BBC World was just reporting on the situation, but their correspondents are in Tbilisi, so they are only relaying second hand reports. The Belgian report above is the first video pertaining to Russian troops in and around Gori.

Analysts are saying the Russians may be moving into Georgian military bases (and especially) artillery positions and destroying what equipment was not evacuated in the chaotic retreat by the Georgian army from the Gori region a few days ago.

Will keep my eyes on this story….

Arrigo,

AFAIK, there are no T-80's (or for that matter T-90's) being used within the combat zone. Only MBT's I have seen in Russian service so far are various T-72 models. However if you are looking for images of the T-80, just do a google image search, this should be of assistance:

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The vast majority of T-80 pics I have seen have them in the standard Green/Sand/Charcoal three-tone scheme.

There are now some western media reports coming out that the number of Russian troops on the highway is increasing, and that they are waving Russian flags yelling "Tbilisi, Tbilisi!"

Honestly sounds highly suspect to me, will certainly be waiting for additional info. I simply am learning the past few days that anything coming directly from the Georgian government or military is highly suspect where accuracy is concerned, whether it is intentional alarmism, or simply mass confusion, regardless it is becoming impossible to get an accurate picture of events on the ground, aside from the small number of reporters that are actually in the combat zone.

As Bangorstu and others were alluding to the morale state of the Georgian army, just thought I would throw in my .02 (probably all its worth at any rate :-)

Pics coming out the last day or two of the mass amount of equipment abandoned on the Gori-Tbilisi highway makes me wonder if there is even a Georgian army left. Most of this was simply left in place in working order during the rout from Gori (T-72's, DANA's, BMP's, GRAD's, all kinds of towed arty, etc.).

I am honestly wondering what kind of cohesion (if any) the Georgian army has left. IF the Russians were actually driving on Tbilisi the road is wide open to the capital, reporters travelling from Gori to Tbilisi have been talking about the mass amount of abandoned equipment, and no mention of ANY kind of defensive deployments.

I do hope that this is in the final stages (or already over for all intents and purposes), however if the Russians get the wild idea to roll on Tbilisi I don't think there is much left to put in their way….

BBC Web footage showing BMP and trucks

Got a link kabrank?

BBC is reporting unconfirmed reports of a column of Russian tanks on the Tblisi road

Georgian ministry of internal affairs confirmed that no Russian tanks are in Gori or Tbilisi. The only tanks that are on the road are those, evacuated from Gori…..

Swedish media gives an AFP reporter as source for claims of Tanks/APCs rolling Gori-Tbilisi.
The AFP homepage says:
"Russian armoured vehicles patrolled the flashpoint town of Gori and about 60 tanks, armoured personnel carriers and other vehicles were seen on the road from Gori to the Georgian capital, 75 kilometers (45 miles) away.An AFP reporter saw Russian troops shouting: "Tbilisi, Tbilisi".A day after President Dmitry Medvedev halted the Russian military offensive, in response to Georgia's attack on breakaway South Ossetia, the Russian military denied it had any forces in Gori, which is between Ossetia and the Georgian capital."

This is getting more interesting by the hour.

So, how long to do a tactical advance down 75 km of unopposed road in BMPs?
Now we're getting into seriously gameable stuff. If Russia is indeed moving on Tbilisi, how many Georgians with AT-weapons will it take to slow them to a crawl? Hells Highway all over again?

Sorry guys, BBC link below

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A few more links.

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Well, the Georgian Army performend poorly, but their air defences certainly seem to have been competant.

You'd almost think the Russians would know how to spoof their own gear, but maybe that's why they always think it's so awesome.
-Kle.

Just got through watching Bush's speach. Looks like the US Navy is heading to the Black Sea on a relief mission along with several USAF flights to bring aid to Georgia. It would also appear that Russia has 17 surface combatants (Corvettes to the Cruiser Moskva) off the coast of Georgia, which would mean every surface combatant in the Black Sea Fleet has been sortied.

First C-17 flight is already on the way to Tbilisi. Things are getting interesting on the diplomatic front as well, and it is without doubt that US-Russian relations are at their lowest point since the mid-late 80's (though the Kosovo crisis in '99 provided some tense moments as well).

New updates.

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11th ACR, rather than just post up lots of links, can you summarise what they are about. I read there on my mobile during the day and it's very slow that way :-)

The Russians have attacked 3 Georgian Navy ships that were in the port of Poti, pics of a Georgian missile boat burning:

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I could but, then I would be typing all day long.

With posting links it gives the members a chance to see some of the Vehicles, Aircraft, Troops(uniforms and weapon systems).

Robert Henry

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In the port? From the comment, and that photo,it sounds as though they were moored rather than active, which would rather strengthen earlier comments that the Russian forces are effectively neutralising any Georgian military capability.

Appreciated Robert, just an idea of whether they are active news reports or just background data on either the region or equipment. Just helps people to be selective.

In most of the links I have tried to put the most up to date stuff.

Yea, we all know that some of the video footage is used over and over and over.

Hell, I still see the footage of the Taliban trainees going across the monkey bars, and that footage first showed up on TV just after September 11 2001.

Robert Henry

And just to show the Kafkaesque side of the conflict:

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And to keep it on topic here is the bit about the Georgian and Russian uniforms:

Chagas and Santanna wore red tops with white bikini bottoms for the match. Uryadova and Shiryaeva wore white tops and blue bikini bottoms.

Lol. More wars should be fought like this.

No, I have enough to do :-D

Yes, 15mm women's volleyball team will decide the next scrum between Georgia and Russia!

Georgian Volleyball team are actually Brazilians.
Yep, Georgia is very green- palm trees, banana trees, orange groves. Very agricultural and rural- unfortunately Georgians after the USSR split turned from the richest nation into the poorest.

Rhode Island. The smallest but most corrupt state in the Union.:-)

Da! :-) But I do have roots in Georgia too- in case you want to accuse me of impartiality ;-)
Gamardzhoba Kyoteblue- batono! :-)))

From Tank.net, a Russian "Battle Taxi"

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Click to enlarge.

ok does anyone have a good link to georgian uniforms and who makes the best 15mm russians and georgian. all my modern 15mms are arabs and americans, that are actually painted.

I doubt anybody makes georgians- many looks like Russians, with us helmets though. It seems to be a real hodge podge- I see some troops in western garb and gear, others with old ak47- their resupply must be a nightmare. One thing for sure- Russians and allies do have a white band on arm or even tied white ribbon on tanks.

Ok, latest from Rusian MOD.
Up to now- russian army 74 KIA, 176 WIA, 19 MIA.
Russians vihemently deny- russian tanks in Gori, berate local admin for leaving the town after rout of Georgian army.
Georg recon helicopter shot down over So Ossetia.
Russian airborne recoveres detailed georgian maps- paraded for press- of assault on Abkhazia and capitol Sukhumi- series of large scale field maps with attack vectors overlay on mylar. Much more serious operation than Ossetia.
Georgian prez vows in interview to reclaim Ossetia and Abkhazia and drive out Russians. Russian tv blocked in Georgia.
Could it be that all the troops running around Gori- Ossetians and others, but NOT Russian army?

The night was quite – I haven't seen any updates yet this morning.
An interesting article from "Times" that might explain the flow of unconfirmed information we had during the last few days…

BBC news this morning reports: link

Summarised:
"A convoy of Russian vehicles has been seen on the road to Georgia's capital but Russia and a Georgian minister have denied it is heading to Tbilisi… Russian tanks seem to be dismantling and destroying Georgian army bases in Gori"

As discussed yesterday, the Russians appear to be effectively destroying Georgia's military capability before they withdraw.

"Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili told the US network CNN that Russian forces were moving towards Tbilisi and planned to encircle the city. However, Russia denied reports that its forces were heading that way… Georgian Deputy Interior Minister Ekaterine Zguladze also said that a convoy of Russian tanks had left Gori but was not heading for the capital"

Seems to be some confusion remains over where this column is and where it is headed, partly fuelled by [Georgian] claims that it is spearheading an attack on the capital.

"There is also a Russian checkpoint with two Russian tanks outside Gori on the main road leading into the town from Tbilisi, an eyewitness told the BBC… The BBC's Richard Galpin, at a police checkpoint about 20km from the capital on the Tbilisi-Gori road, said he had seen a column of about 60 Georgian military vehicles, including troop carriers and at least two anti-aircraft guns, heading in the direction of Gori…. The Georgians said they were "on a humanitarian mission"

Most the reports from the BBC seem to place the blame for the looting and destruction on South Ossetians in Gori, rather than Russians.

Geoff

Hi All

BBC has good report on Russia/Georgia "hand over" here:-

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Note the number T62 with anti RPG bar armour at the beginning.

Antiques rule OK?

Very pleasing to note that I don't have to try and paint the sand disruptive camo on the wheels of 6mm BMPs, they all seem to have gone a sort of dirty brown colour…

The burning vessel in port looks to be the Tbilisi (armed with a 76mm gun, and 2 x Styx missiles), which calls the following battle account I found on the net into question:

"One of the members of the crew of a ship in the Black Sea Fleet, upon his return to Sevastopol is interviewed by a reporter regarding the battle with Georgian cutters off of Abkhazia on 10 August. This is currently leading the kpunews in the Ukraine. The story suggests he is being interviewed by a kpunews reporter.
"We took up station guarding the opposed landing on the Abkhaz shore when all of a sudden four high speed targets were detected. We sent out an IFF signal and the targets didn't react. Receiving a command from the flagship [Moskva?], we got into formation and right at that moment the unidentified targets opened fire on the ship formation and flagship. The cruiser was damaged and a small fire broke out aboard. Then, fearing for seaworthyness, the flagship withdrew from the firing area." – the sailor said.

"Right then the small missile boats clearly fired," the participant continued. "Taking up position, our MRK launched a "Malakhit" (SS-N-9) anti-surface missile, which literally cut the lead ship, the "Tbilisi" to ribbons. After that, fire was shifted to the rest of the Georgian ships. Another ship was damaged, we couldn't finish it off, allowing it to leave the scene under its own power.
So the Moskva was apparently damaged in the attack and disengaged. She is certainly capable of destroying big ships, but the battle appears to highlight a weakness against small ships. The battle also tends to add credibility to what many have said, it is best to fight small ships at sea with small ships at sea.

The sailor goes on to say it took a minute and a half for the Georgian ship to sink in 300 meters of water. The article finishes with a note about the "Tbilisi" being previously sold to Georgia as the former Ukraine ship "Konotop" ".

Apparently, the Moskva is a renamed (I hate when the Russians do that) ex-Slava class vessel, and not the helo-carrier.

Some have speculated that the other boats attacking the Russian blockaders may have been the Dioskuria (apparently the only other boat armed with missiles – Exocets), in addition to other patrol boats, like the Batumi, or Georgiy Torelli.

Apparently, many of the other Coast Guard/Border Guard Patrol Boats were destroyed in port, with demolition charges. By Spetznatz troops, or naval infantry perhaps?

If the above battle account is correct, one of the Nanuchka's is responsible for the destruction of the Tbilisi, since it is the only vessel type armed with the SS-N-9, if the on-line weapons loadout references are accurate.

Wow, nice report on that Ace. I have some of the vessels in 1/700 and others in 1/2400. Rules would be Bulldogs Away.

Rhode Island. The smallest but most corrupt state in the Union.:-)

Almost certainly true, though Louisiana could give us a run for the money.
-Kle.

The Russians could deny their tanks were in Gori all they liked, but British TV has shown footage of them being there… :)

Reports today say the Russians have allowed armed Georgian police back into Gori to deal with looting. This has been rife and apaprently caused by South Ossetianss. The behaviour of the Russian troops has been favourably commented on by civilians who remained in Gori, including a report of them shooting dead a looter.

The Russians have been in combat today in the vicinity according to a BBC reporter, and seem to be spending a lot of time destroying Georgian military bases and stocks of ammunition.

It does seem, contrary to what I previously said, that elements of the Georgian Army did leave the scene with more speed than would appear to be seemely…

Though if the reports of a Georgian Tank unit taking 80% casualties are true, it might also have been the smart thing to do. APCs atract the attention of gunships more than people on foot do.

Just to add to previous reports – Armed Georgian police was allowed in Gori to deal with looters- Ossetians? Georgian troops were turned away after tence standoff. Russians are sistematically destroying georgian military infrastructure- military bases and air strips. Port of Poti is fully operational- but all georgian naval vessels are destroyed.

It appears the Russians are trying to make the Georgian army as weak as possiable. I imagine that the Georgians won't be wanting to get involved in round two for a long time, but I assume they will try to rebuild their army into something more capable of holding of the Russians. How do we think the Georgians will go about this? More A/A lots of infantry A/T? Will they even be able to? I wonder if America will help to re-arm Georgia?

…allegedly…. :)

It's "Back in the USSR" for Georgia.

Russia is not going to leave. They are going to keep troops there to "restore law and order" and find an excuse to arrest the Georgian government.

Of course, that's just going to drive all the other former east-bloc countries running to Nato and the US.