"Georgia and Russia" Topic

Interesting point :
link
Something that shall be more and more taken in account when building your army list for a modern conflict game.

Saw video footage of light armored cars patrolling a street yesterday. The vehicles looked like French built VBLs, though in the video they looked longer than what I thought the VBL was. Anyone sew them and know what they are?

irishserb,

That was the Otokar Cobra, Turkish built, Georgia has around 100 in service:

link

I'm sure Geoff will be making one shortly :-)

We may be seeing the end of hostilities, the Georgian President just sent a letter to the Russian embassy in Tbilisi stating he is ordering all Georgian military units to ceasefire and stand down.

russiatoday.com

Off to get some sleep, hopefully this will be over when I awaken…..

Don't go there. My wife is still out there, at the Russian end…

hope that even if I am right and they are for the showdown in Georiga they not escalate to Ukraine… even if I doubt that Putin is so foolish to go all out.

Just saw footage on BBC of Georgian troops arriving home on US transports still in the desert cams from Iraq.

Feels like Russia had a plan for responding to Georgian intervention in Sth. Os. given how quickly and comprehensively they did so (including naval elements).

I'm surprised that Georgia thought they could get away with it and also that they didn't attack the tunnel that was the main Russian route early on. Apparently their special forces are still engaged in the gorge area.

I bet Russia keeps rolling to the capital.

"Feels like Russia had a plan for responding to Georgian intervention in Sth. Os. given how quickly and comprehensively they did so (including naval elements). "

Interesting point. From what a Georgian friend tells me this is what the media in Georgia is saying. That the Russians were ready to attack posting "peace keepers" in Ossetia and that Georgia had no choice but attack. That this has been an attempt by the Russians to take down the government for some time. May just be propaganda but interesting viewpoint.

Looking at the pictures on TANKERS I saw T-62, T-55, BMP-1 and BMP-2; several 8-wheeled BTR-? (70 I think) including one with add-on armor. I am sure there was one photo with 2 BMD-2 in it as well as another also with a BMD-2. A Soviet airborne division is supposed to be flown into either the Soviet staging areas or ? It was pointed out that the RHA on the Georgian tanks had triangular shaped RHA tiles on the front of the turrets, and no large IR searchlights while the Soviet tanks had square tiles and kept the large IR searchlight. These were a T-72 model.

TG

kyoteblue,

So far it has been quiet (it is 9:15am Tbilisi time), the morning is when we get an upsurge in news once daily operations begin.

Only news thus far is a report of further Russian aistrikes around Gori and Tbilisi, reports of Russian troops pouring into Abkhazia (though Russian troops have abandoned their peacekeeping posts near Kodori Gorge). This includes a report of Russian armor and troops massing in Abkhazia near the Georgian town of Zugdidi. Russia Today English report here:

link

Report on the naval engagement yesterday:

link

As phillipaj stated above, Georgian troops have begun arriving home from Iraq. Russia has not responded to the ceasefire proposal from Tbilisi.

We should get a clearer picture of events as the day progresses.

kyoteblue and everyone else,

Not a problem. I do wish to add one caveat however, do not take everything I am relaying at face value, as both sides are pouring out an enormous amount of propaganda at the moment. The Western and Georgian media are definitely pro-Georgian, while Russian, Middle Eastern, Indian and Chinese reports are pro-Russian.

Mainly sticking with the Russian sites since I have a fair grasp of the language, and those are the ones that actually have updates that are not half a day old (as in most of the western press).

Have to go take care of a "honey do" list, but will check back on events in a few hours and provide an update if anything of interest has occured.

Paul

Where does the Russian black sea fleet base from these days?

Sebastopol

Morning update,

As of this morning, no ceasefire in effect, Russian aircraft are still carrying out strikes in Georgia, including a strike on Tbilisi airport earlier in the morning local time (a half hour before the Finnish and French delegations arrived for ceasefire talks).

Armenian media is reporting that Russia has cut the supply of gas to Armenia without warning or explanation.

Moscow calls for a Russia-NATO council meeting to discuss the situation in South Ossetia – according to Russia's envoy to NATO.

South Ossetia reports that Georgia has resumed shelling its territory.

Russian and Abkhazian troops are demanding that Georgian troops in Abkhazia surrender.

Pretty much it for today thus far, it is a little after 5pm in the region, night will be falling soon, so I don't expect a lot of activity until dawn tommorow.

Pretty much seems like a static situation right now, Russian airstrikes and Georgian shelling, some fighting in Abkhazia, but so far no Russian ground forces moving into Georgia proper outside of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, contrary to reports that were filtering in earlier concerning a Russian ground attack on Gori.

Cold Warrior are you over in that area??

Irish,

No, thankfully :-)

Have just been keeping up to date via Russian and world media sources via my "intel center" in Tucson :-)

I have had a subscrption to Russian satellite TV on the PC for nearly a year now, since I enjoy some russian programming and definitely catching the Russian league ice hockey games during the season, so it came in handy when the conflict broke out, as I was able to get updates from several Russian stations.

Major update,

Both western and Russian media are reporting that Russian forces have invaded Georgia proper from Abkhazia and have seized a Georgian military base at Senaki, near the Georgian Black Sea port of Poti:

link

To add to the above, again this is being reported by both Western and Russian sources, but it does not make any sense to me. If yo have Google Earth, or any detailed map of the region, take a look at the position of Senaki. Russian forces would have had to bypass other large Georgian towns to get there, but all of a sudden we have a report of Georgian armor in Senaki with no previous reports of other towns attacked or bypassed….odd.

Will be keeping my eyes on this, seeing if I can get any further details.

Georgian armour? Do you mean russian armour?

Geoff,

Yes, Russian armor, my apologies for the mistake.

Just caught an interview with the Russian deputy PM Ivanov on CNN, it's safe to say Russia will not be signing the ceasefire proposal being brought to them from Georgia.

That's not good

Update:

Russia's ITAR-TASS is reporting that according to an unnamed Russian military source, a Georgian "military base" in Senaki has been captured by Russian forces. The reason stated is it was being used as a forward base for Georgian operations in Abkhazia.

There are two military installations in Senaki, a Georgian army base, and a military airbase, so I don't know which installation has been captured (perhaps both).

Nope, I get a nasty feeling it's downhill from here…. :-( Reports of Russians in Zugdidi as well which would seem the likely route to Senaki. To be honest I'm wondering if Senaki was the one to hit the news first simply because they managed a quick advance and nobody picked up on it sooner?

Gents,

I have edited a Google Earth image of Senaki, showing positions of the Airbase and Army Base, with the three possible Russian axis of advance on the city. I think they took the nort-east route into the city since this would be the closest shot from Abkhazia without passing any major towns/cities. The western approach is unlikely, the north-western approach would have meant a Russian drive on the city of Zugdidi.

picture

Dom,

You may be correct, but I haven't heard about an attack on Zugdidi as yet, though I have been dallying with Google Earth the last 20 minutes and haven't caught any recent updates. Will be checking all the media channels/sources in a few and try to get an update.

link

Dom,

Thanks for the link. Further info on the Senaki (and possible Zugdidi) operation, where it is confirmed the airbase was the target:

link

Also: link

It does look like a drive down the main road Zugdidi – Khobi – Senaki.

Well my initial comment about cyberwarfare may be correct:

link

Georgia reporting that its government servers have been under attack.

Just want to say thanks. I'm getting more information here than CNN, FOX or any of the other so called news channals combined.

New footage on CNN today showed a part of Battery of SA-8's on a mountain road. Looked like 2 Missile systems, one radar, 2 trucks and a BTR-70.

Also a lot of BMD-2's

link

Dom,

Strange story, they are being accompanied/escorted by Georgian police? Seems a bit odd…

Definitely looks like they took the northwestern route, Russian media is now talking about Zigdidi being occupied (ITAR-TASS).

Strange story, they are being accompanied/escorted by Georgian police? Seems a bit odd…

Yep. That said reports on Zugdidi say they've taken over the police stations, so maybe (a) commandeered, or (b) they've convinced the local police to tag along for the sake of minimising risk of a confrontation with Georgian civvies? (I'd imagine that the locals are more likely to listen to reason from a Georgian copper than a Russian tank commander?)

11th ACR – note the date on that story; it's an incident from 6 weeks ago – certainly part of the build-up to this mess though.

BBC reporting Gori has fallen – their reporting had to evacuate the town in something of a hurry as the Georgians are falling back to Tblisi.

I really have lots of doubts now. The advance in Abkhazia is just a typical turn to earn more points before the negotiations start. Also, the rhetorics I see on our RTR channel doesn't look good….

Oh carp…. Seriously sounding like this one's going all the way….

All hell is now breaking loose, reports coming in from everywhere via Russian and other sources that Russian forces have taken Gori and are driving towards Tbilisi, Georgian forces falling back to the capital.

Looks like Russia has decided to take the entire country…..

This is now going from a regional conflict to one that has the very real potential to get out of control….

Now it gets weird – according to Reuters the Russian defence ministry has just said Russian troops *aren't* in Gori….

Yep, Russia's really taking some chances by going for total occupation.

I find it weird that I've been seeing T-62s and T-55s – you'd think the Russians wouldn't have antiques near a hotspot.

Russia is also confirming that one of their downed aircraft is a Tu-22M Backfire – oops.
-Kle.

I don't see anything on official RTR channel….nothing on Russian sites too…Reuters says it is not true.

T-62 and T-55 are from Ossetian and Abkhaz Forces,no reactive armor on these…

Dom,

Yep, weird it is, I am getting contradicting reports all over the place, but the pace is fast and furious right now, we will need some time to sort out fact from rumor and figure out what is actually going on.

Klebert,

The T-62 and T-55's pics I have seen were being used by the Abkhazian army (Georgia also has T-55's). The Backfire was shot down a few days ago. Apparently a Georgian Su-25 was shot down by the Russians in the last few hours (didn't think they had any left after all the airstrikes on Georgian airfields the last few days).

Update:

Still conflicting reports about the situation on Gori, a CNN reporter via phone stated that Georgian forces were retreating from the city, but he had not seen Russian troops.

As Barin1 stated, Russian MoD denies any Russian troops in Gori. This is also being confirmed elsewhere.

At this point we just need to wait for more detailed information to filter down until we know just what is occuring on the ground.

Yep – I'm going to switch my brain off for half an hour, watch the Simpsons and keep my fingers crossed….

The LA Times has an interesting photoset accompanying this article:

link

Quite a bit of destruction in Gori and nearby villages.

Allen

Sky News live reports retreat from Gori. Soldiers pulling out say Gori has fallen (unconfirmed). Roads are closed.

Dom,

Not a bad idea, may play a game and veg for a while, on a wargaming related note, just primed a bunch of BRDM-2's and MTLB's, so I may work on them…..

Was just watching CNN and their reporter Matthew Chance was talking via satellite from Tbilisi, he stated he was with the Georgian army and thousands of civilians as they retreated from Gori. Again, I have no clear picture as to what is happening on the ground. It is after 9pm local time in the region, and since the operational tempo slows in the evening, we may not get a clear picture of what is occuring til daybreak.

If I hear anything in the interim, will be sure to pass it along…….

Georgian president reported as saying Russia controls half of the country, Georgian troops falling back from Gori say they're in "full retreat", but a conspicuous lack of evidence of Russian troops to go with it. All still very bizarre….