"Should RFCM Convert to Gridless?" Topic

Should Peter Pig's Rules for the Common Man series of miniature rulebooks convert from using a grid to being gridless?

(Currently some have converted; others are staying gridded.)

You don't appear to be familiar with the RFCM rules. Your question starts from the incorrect premise that all began as "gridded", and that some have "converted. That's not the case.

Some have been designed to use the "Square Bashing" model. Some never have. Some "non-gridded" sets were written before any of the "gridded". Some newer "non-gridded" ones have appeared since. I can't think of an example of any that have "converted" to one or the other. "Lincoln's War" used the square system. "Civil War Battles" does not. But they're very different sets of rules.

Both types have their appeal.

In short: no.

Allen

Depends how they do it. Their Pieces of 8 rules, for example, are gridless but require you to place hexes in front of your ship (which is based on a hex-shaped base). How this is better than just using a hex-grid is beyond me.

"Hammerin Iron" is the same. Simple: you're not restricted to setting up on an established grid. Results in far less predictability as vessels maneuver and engage. Creates a simple and elegant movement system without looking or acting like a board game.

When I first heard about using squares it sounded like a horrible idea. However, I now think the square (or hex) model works really well.

Correction: "Bayonet and Ideology II" seems to have gone from a traditional system to the PBI square system. I only have the original, so am not absolutely sure. But that's what the PP Web site would indicate, as does Steven Thomas on his Balagan site.

So I suppsoe that might be a "conversion", as the two sets share a title. I suspect that the second version is actually a completely different set of rules. But if it is a conversion, it's a conversion *towards* "gridded".

Allen

Bob in Edmonton,

The main advantage of the hex base system in Pieces of 8 would be that you would not have to buy (expensive) or make (time consuming) a mat with a hex grid on it. It's far easier to print out a few hexes and cut them from card or something.

Brian

Nooooo BC, the main advantage is that your scenery looks like Scenery.

But I have to say I would rather fellate Captain Barbosa's Monkey than play Pieces of Eight.

Pat

For some of the games, at least, it isn't simply a matter of "converting" from squares/hexes to inches/cms. The gridded system allows all kinds of things to be handled in ways that are different from mechanics that don't rely on grids.

I think that, if a straight conversion were done, the games wouldn't have the same feel or play value. I also think that, even if the mechanics were revamped to accomodate an ungridded mechanic, the games would no longer flow the way they do now. In other words, they'd be completely different games.

I like them the way they are and, frankly, I don't understand the question. Is there some implication that gridded systems are somehow inferior? Is there a clamoring from players less restrictive mechanics? The questions seems, to me, analogous to asking if Bridge should be converted to a Bingo grid.

No, those that do use the grid should most certainly NOT change to a gridless system. Why should they as most are perfect as is. I wouldn't play a new version PBI if it got rid of the squares!

What brought this question on?

My group and I prefer all our games to be gridded with hexes. All our scenery is designed to fit our hex cloth and we find the games play quicker with less arguments and accusations. I don't even know where my old tape measure is!

Please keep the RFCM games gridded, or like me convert AK47, an ungridded game to gridded.

Bayonet & Ideology 1 and 2 are completely different games. The former is the forerunner to Abteilung, the latter is the SCW version of PBI.

I am a big fan of grids, but RFCM aren't in the process of re-writing all their rules to use grids (or not), they are just doing new sets of rules.

It is easy enough to convert the current AK47 to grids, as it is any ruler based set and vice versa. You'd have to use movement points for the variable movement though.

My Pieces of Eight 2nd edition (the current rules are 3rd ed) uses different size hexes for different size ships. Hammerin' Iron uses the same size hexes for all ships (iirc) but certain circumstances give an extra 1/2 hex of movement. I find that they give a very different game to playing on a hex grid. First off the hexes will never start in perfect alignment with eachother, so the true effect is of many overlapping hex grids. This makes movement and range guessing harder.

Phil Sabin's "Strategos" uses a square grid of 20 zones to govern the battle. Does this make it a bad game?

I'm another convert to the grid. Hated the idea until I played PBI, now every game I play I contemplate using a grid ;)
Less hassle, more game playing. YMMV.

"Phil Sabin's "Strategos" uses a square grid of 20 zones to govern the battle. Does this make it a bad game?"

No, it makes them the best set of Ancients rules I've ever come across. These days I play nothing else.

PBI is now the only WWII game I play, mainly due to the fact that no-one can accuse anyone of nudging figures around for advantage. I regularly play against someone who starts a move from the front of a base and ends it with the back on the line (ie. a cheat). Squares make the game far more relaxed. The question of cover is a non issue now, a closed square is a closed square.

PBI really hit on all cylinders with me when I went to Historicon last year and played an eight person game on a gigantic board. Seeing how perfectly the system worked with a large table and lots of players made me a die-hard fan (although I already liked the game a lot). Using the Tournament friendly 400 point two player game is all well and good, but it is limiting…

"My group and I prefer all our games to be gridded with hexes. All our scenery is designed to fit our hex cloth and we find the games play quicker with less arguments and accusations. I don't even know where my old tape measure is!"

I have to wholeheartedly agreee with @Karellian Knight on this one. While I have way too many games period, I have always found that the hex or grid based games play much faster and with less arguement. It's just amazing how fast games play without the need to measure moves, measure turns, then measure shooting, measure charging, measure retreats, etc ad nauseum.

And no arguments about "fudging" moves or ranges or none of the "you can't attack that unit, it's 1/3000 of an inch out of range" (exagerated sure, but you know what I mean, eh?).

Thinking back, I can't remember a game I've had more fun simply playing than the old plastic Battlemasters set (vinyl hex map, big cannon and Ogre and lots of mixed units).

I think I shall toodle off and see if I can whip up a quick and dirty conversion to play Mighty Armies on hexes, unless I stumble over someone else's conversion already done. That's another very fun game to play and eliminating measurements could only make it faster and more enjoyable by letting us get in even more games played in the evening.

I've played a mixture of hexed and gridless games and I think they both have places in my gaming.

My favourite RFCM rules are Civil War Battles and they are not gridded.

My non squared PP rules are RoF and ACW, so are large scale. The 'Effective Fire' rule would be harder to do on squares.

PBI is great- you move simply without worring about ranges- your men are effectively dashing from one piece of ground to another, which feels more Company Commander like. No worry about blast templates, or where the terrain is. No keep measuring ranges for that perfect oppotunity fire. No discussion about who sees what.

I have just bought a Kallistra hex based terrain set and am using it with 10mm WWII – good stuff.

I am writing my own rules. Having played squad leader for many years, the hex format feels very natural.

NOT bending over tables with a tape measure, helps the old bad back.

Like an Nazrat I wonder where this came from? You can tell how new rules are with PP by the presentation. Old stuff in comb-binders, new stuff the full 'modern' treatment- perfect bound, photo'ed examples etc. PBI2 is the new version and still gridded, ACW and Bloody Barons are new, but hung on the mechanisms from Regiment of Foote (old).

If you degridded PBI you get AK47!