"Hungarian Helmet Replacement?" Topic

The few books I have on the subject say that Hungarian units were the first to receive the new shako and that by the 1809 campaign most/all had switched over (unlike the Austrian units which still had helmets). Somewhere else I remember reading that some Austrian infantrymen (individuals not units) held on to their helmets even into 1814.

I'd like to add some variation to my Hungarian units but would it be stretching it just too much to imagine any Hungarian infantryman still wore a helmet at the Battle of Leipzig.

Thoughts? Or better yet some evidence one way or the other…?

Far too much of a stretch…

All German and Hungarian regiments were probably in Shako by Wagram. I have not seen any evidence that shows units to be in helmet at Leipzig.

The Helmet did not last long physically, primarily the brim usually came off…As they ha#d not made any after 1805/6 the chances of any physically surviving were pretty remote anyhow.

K

Khevenhuller, I have always read that, as a rule of thumb, Germans in helmets and Hungarians in shakos for Wagram. Are you saying that most of both nationalities would have been in shakos by then?

Artilleryman

As a rule of thumb, yes. At Aspern there was probably more of a clear split but by Wagram it seems that most, if not all regiments were in Shako.

This does not, I think, apply to troops from the Army of Innter Austria or those in Galicia.

K

Keep in mind the Austrian High Command was extremely frugal. When a unit changed from helmet to shako, all the servicable helmets were given to another regiment to continue to wear as long as possible. A few units wore helmets in 1812. It is entirely feasable for a unit or 2 to still be wearing helmets by 1814, but I do not recall any references to Hungarian units in helmets by after Wagram.

Cold Steel

Which regiments wore helmets in 1812? Do you have sources for this as, as far asall mine are concerned, the Hilfkorps all went into Russia wearing Shako.

K

- All German and Hungarian regiments were probably in Shako by Wagram –

I must say I'm very surprised by this affirmation K. I seem to recall Hollins telling us that most Germans were still in Shako in 1809. I seem to recall seeing pictures of germans in helmets in 1809.

From Dave Hollins earlier post :

"I frankly doubt if the records exist anymore. It is certainly true that the 1806 decree took some time to implement, so as a simple rule of thumb, it tends to be Germans in helmets and Hungarians in shakos for 1809. The Hungarians went first, so you would be wrong to have Hungarians in helmets with some Germans in shakos. However, no-one could dispute a few German units in shakos."

Hollins certainly seems to believe that most Germans were still in Helmets in 1809…

AD Charles:

I think he is saying that by the battle of Wagram the changeover had occurred. Most of my sources note that at the start of the 1809 campaign (Bohemian/Bavaria phase) that most, if not all, German units still wore the helmet (and if a few regiments had the shako--that is still argued by various authors). By Wagram (battle of) more German units were wearing the shako. I think Dave's information relates to the start of the 1809 campaign.

See the post in Napoleonic Product board about 1809 BG/OG Austrian. There is some discussion of this.

One poster noted that Hourtoulle's Wagram plates show all German units in helmet at Wagram.

That thread basically suggested that only very few German units would have worn the shako at the start of the 1809 campaign. By Wagram--well, there was no agreement.

Most of my 1809 Germans are wearing the helmet although I have three or four regiments wearing the Shako (most for the latter states of the campaign).

I do think it makes sense that more Germans were in Shakos at Wagram, but all of them?

From Aspern (May) to Wagram (July), the army went from almost totally in helmets to entirely in Shakos? Isn't a little fast? Especially for the frugal Austrian army?

I don't mean to say I have the answer btw, just wondering…

A copy of the Elsässer manuscript shows an Austrian Jäger in helmet as POW in 1809, the Hungarian infantryman is in shako.

A sketch by Kininger of 1809 shows 4 Hungarian infantrymen in shako.

I would go along with the rule of thumb by Dave Hollins.

How should the Austrians re place the helmets with shakoes between Aspern and Wagram, with a lot of depots gone?

von Winterfeldt wrote:

"A copy of the Elsässer manuscript shows an Austrian Jäger in helmet as POW in 1809, the Hungarian infantryman is in shako".

In a similar vein then (and hoping this isn't too much of a thread hijack Paul), when would the korsehut have completely replaced the helmet for Jager?

Regards

Von Winterfeldt/Charles

Most of the army depots were in Bohemia/Moravia as were the recruiting areas for the majority of the German Regiments at Wagram. In the month in between the two battles the army was more-or-less static and were able to continue their transition which had been underway throughout the campaign. This is actually Hollin's opinion and is backed up by Margot and Romain Baulesch.

I am not altogether sure how accurate Hortoulle is, as his interest is clearly in the French rather their opponents.

It would be interesting if the Jager was a regular. Certainly the Corsehut had proved far more popular than the helmet (having worn both I can understand why). If he was a freicorps then that would be possibly more understandable, but still unusual. It could be artistic license of course, not an unknown phenomenon it period drawings…

K

I don't think it is artistic licence at all, in case I have time I will do a photo and place it here, as to the continuing transition – I have my doubts, a pity that Dave Hollins is not longer on this platform

Whirlwind, I've redirected a number of threads myself so have at it.

To everyone else: thanks for the information. I suppose I'll have to think of other ways to add some variety.

I have Dave Hollin's "Warrior Series" book by Osprey on Austrian Grenadiers and Infantry: 1788-1816 and a number of images clearly show German infantry wearing the helmet in the 1809 campaign. One is from Aspern (May), a second is from Schwarze Lackenau (May) and identifies the unit as IR49. Conversely, one reportedly shows IR 39 (Hungarian) and/or IR 14 (German) at Neumarkt (April) in shako. It's hard to tell from the print whether the uniforms are German or Hungarian. Of course, none of the prints/illustrations are specifically for Wagram but would it have been feasible for the German units to switch from helmet to shako in the period between Aspern and Wagram…?

Hilfkorps all went into Russia wearing Shako….

The plate by Burn in the Hollin's book shows them wearing the 1806 shako. It also shows German infantry with an odd assortment of clothing including one with Hungarian style pants (without the braid or strip) and no gaiters. I wonder how common this would have been in 1813…. ;o)

Paul

I have the same book. That's a look during the retreat and Geoffrey readily admits it is speculative based on what Dave thought they might scrape together. Note the peak missing from one of the shakos for example. Braidless pants is an error on Geoffrey's part I am afraid, you cannot take the things off as they are part of the seam. You also have to remember that this is supposed to represent a bunch of neo-stragglers from various regiments.

As for time to change over, this was not a thing that simply happened. Some German regiments seem to have been in Shako before Aspern, some were still in Helmet after Wagram. It is a war fought during a period of transition so the records are correspondingly muddy.

I am afraid if you are looking for variety in the Austrian army it will be hard to find among the infantry. The commonest problem was a lack of kit in 1813, not a mixture of styles. As Schwarzenberg noted in a letter to his wife: "We need shirts, boots and a bottle of brandy to revive our energies". But this was an army where uniform discipline was very strictly enforced wherever possible.

K

Khevenhuller, I suppose I'll just have to resign myself to uniformity in my Austrian/Hungarian ranks. Thanks for the informative posts.

I've been interested in this thread as our group is planning on doing Wagram next year and I've been painting up German line in helmets.

I gather that it's not definitive as to whether shako or helmet was worn a Wagram? But best guess would be a mix?

Well, I think that's what most of us do, me included. There does not seem to be definitive evidence one way or another.

Plus, anything to break the monotony of Austrian line is welcome if you ask me!

wrgmr1

My 1809 army is more for Aspern than Wagram so my Germans are in Helmet, Hungarians in Shako. That said I am thinking of doing a regiment or two in Shako and thinking of Archduke John's stuff for our later Wagram refight all in Helmet.

But that is because I am looking at expanding back to 1799 and 1805, if you want to reach forward do Shako, nobody should really be that picky…

K

Khevenhuller, I just wanted you to know I am working on your reference, but it may take a while. Our whole library is still in boxes from our recent move and some of them were ruined when a water piper broke last week. I do remember the 1812 unit was not in Hiller's corps.

And for the record, my 1809 Hungarian regiments are all in shako and the German in helmets.

I agree ArchdukeCharles, I stopped the line and did up two battalions of Landwher. Four more to go, then back to line.

Khevenhuller, we plan on doing part of the battle at Enfilade next year, and I'd rather not have some punter walk up and say this is all wrong, they should have shako's. It's nice to have some information, for just this scenario.

So all this talk of Hungarians in helmet got me wondering, when was the last significant battle that they would have worn the helmet…? Out of curiousity, I checked the OOB I have for Austerlitz (from Goetz book) and it appears every line unit present were German. I also looked up Elchingen on the Net and found no reference to Hungarian line infantry.

Anyone…?