"If you move it, They will come." Topic

Hey Bill how about a hot topic poll?

If they move Historicon, will you attend?

The retoric is pretty high right now and the tempers are hot with some. I think most know where I stand on the issue. But maybe now that everyone is home, had a good nights sleep and recovered (almost) from the beer and bad (okay not bad) food we can do a little deep down soul searching. So the question stands. If Historicon is moved will you go.

I will.

VR
James Mattes

Most likely yes. At least once to see the new venue, then I'll decide if I will continue.

If they move it to the Baltimore Convention Center, no.

I figure everyone will hem and haw if it moves and then they'll all go anyway. People fear change but adapt to it better than they'd like to believe.

Moving H-con does not matter to me, I have not been yet. More important is that I have to fly to where ever it would be held.

Is it easy to get to from the airport?

I had heard a lot of bad mouthing about the Host facilities here on TMP and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised at how nice things were in general. I hadn't attened H-con since 2001 so I was already familiar with the building layout.

My room was clean, the bed was comfortable and the air conditioning worked like a charm. So no complaints about the room.

The food vending has improved greatly over the past 7 years. There was a lot of variety: barbecue and grilled items out on the patio, hot food in the main lobby, sandwiches and hot dogs in front of the Distelfink room and pizza elsewhere. And the downstairs food service was open late into the evening so that those of us with 6pm games could get something to eat afterwords.

The lighting in the game rooms seemed better than I remembered.

I was surprised at how many more game rooms there were than in 2001. The comedy club area and some rooms off of the Vista restaurant were added to the overall gaming space.

The convention staff was very helpful – they were aces when it came to getting some extra tables and other items. My kudos go out to the staff for a job well done.

My only complaint would be the lack of ramps and too many stairs in the building. I found that our dolly cart was completely useless in hauling heavy boxes from our van or room to the game tables. We would have needed 2 or 3 carts just to "portage" around the stairs. So we chucked the carts after the first day. This is not something that the convention staff can do anything about. I can see how difficult it would be for someone in a wheel chair (such as Dances With Words) would have in moving around the building.

Location wise, the Host seems pretty good. We were able to drive from Chicago in about 12 hours and with 3 drivers, switching off every couple of hours made the journey fly quickly.

Latest rumor is that 2009 will be in either DC or Baltimore, with Baltimore the strong front-runner. Besides a much longer drive for me/us (Detroit), the overall costs will have to go up. More gasoline. More expensive accommodations. More expensive food and dining (probably). If we fly it means we can't bring a game to run (how will that affect the number of games offered?). Can't buy as much stuff to bring home because I can't get it on the plane (they better have onsite UPS service so I can get it shipped home). And what about the facility costs? How will that affect attendance fees and more importantly, dealer costs?

Not complaining, mind you. Historicon has to move, and I understand it's an HMGS-East convention, not some National Miniatures Convention. And I used to go to GenCon each year and those costs were significantly higher (which is why Historicon is such a great deal).

So maybe it's distance more than cost.

Dunno.

Should be interesting!

Things did seem to be better this year, but I was very disappointed that they removed the outdoor seating and tables. There was nowhere to eat.

There was still an odor of mildew in the front of the Host. I found it overpowering near the entrance/bar.

The bathrooms were better, but I regret wearing sandals in them.

I slept through the membership meeting (8am). Did anyone attend?

I'd love to see it in Baltimore. I can take a bus for $20 USD to Baltimore and it's only 4 blocks from my apartment. I hate driving. I can hop on the bus with a backpack, pull out a book, and 3 hours later I'm there. There's a lot more diversity and choice in accomodation and there's even cheaper accomodation (than Lancaster) if you stay near the airport. Food is the bomb, too. I'd eat at Faidley's once a day.

The only problem is how to carry that heavy box of lead that I purchase from Age of Glory and Old Glory.

I will be reluctant to attend if H'con is moved. I am very happy with the Host. It's a fool's dream to think that any new facility is going to be without problems. With the Host we know what to expect. If expense goes up significantly I believe the net result will be a much smaller convention.

Anywhere under an 8 hr drive for me.

This debate has been circulating for years. I don't find much to fault at the Host and the area provided for gaming etc, has been expanded over the years.

As for moving the site, no one has come up with a better site that is as centrally located as Lancaster. So may be it's not perfect, but it does seem to accomedate those coming from New England to the Carolinas to the mid-west. And it does have attractions, other than gaming, for family members that come along. And Washington, Baltimore, Philli are a relatively short distance away, not to mention the Gettysburg and Antietem battlefields.

So complain if you must (or just want to), but the Host and Lancaster are overall not a bad site.

Note – It's about a 3 hour drive for me coming out of WV.

Membership meet just meet the minimun for a meeting. 40 I think including the board members. Spent too much time on trying to ammend an ammendment to the by-laws. I vote No as I did at the referendum. Some forced the board on a contribution of $1,000 USD to one of the Veterans groups. As a vet I understand the desire but I thought it not part of HMGS charter and voted no. Minutes from the last three years membership meetings were approved! Have to have enough folks on hand to vote. Board members reports were for the most part a whole lot of nothing to report. Meeting let out due to a seminar scheduled for 10 AM. Side meeting on the possible move was held up stairs.

VR
James Mattes

Since I never stayed at the Host, the motel is not an issue with me. The tennis barn and other rooms including a rare find of seminar rooms were fine as well.

Having been at a lot of other venues, I have never listed a complaint on the facilities. Move if the membership wants to do that. It is such a big issue that would affect all the HMGS-East members that it should be a general vote. Regardless of a board. In Alabama the legislature and county commissions still have to get a vote of the citizens to pass local use taxes. it affects everyone. This is how I look at that issue.

Moving it has pros and cons. Also this is not the only place that it has ever been held. ColD Wars have been at even more locales.

"My only complaint would be the lack of ramps and too many stairs in the building."

Some wag once remarked there are more stairs in the Host than in a Lord of the Rings movie.

There are ramps, you just have to know how and where to find them. For instance, you can load straight from the parking lot/road (across from the putting green), right into the back of the Distlestink. Same access gives you all the other rooms on that floor. But then you have to run out and park your car (probably in another state).

Upstairs rooms, other than the Heritage, are accessible by the front door handicap access ramp.

The showroom is not accessible to carts. The Lampeter is right from the back doors.

There is a little known elevator right by the front entrance to the Distlestink.

There used to be carts for GMs at the GM Help Desk, but I think the hotel staff ate them, so I am not sure if they were ever replaced. Also, the GM Help Desk offers short term storage for GMs too, along with the carts (if they replaced or found).

"There was still an odor of mildew in the front of the Host. I found it overpowering near the entrance/bar."

Ah, that would be the attendees, or some of them anyway. "Bathing is not an option" – Funny button I saw some years ago there.
;-)

"The only problem is how to carry that heavy box of lead that I purchase from Age of Glory and Old Glory."

That really won't be a problem since either the vendors won't be there or if they are they will have display figures only and will gladly take your mail order and send it to you.

The move to ________, fill in the blank, is wholey unjustified. The suggestion that Historicon could attract 6,000 attendees is misguided at best…unless of course, the convention is marketed as another "Origins", so in effect, it no longer is Historicon…and HMGS East is no longer what it was.

db
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"The move to ________, fill in the blank, is wholey unjustified."

I believe that many have objective reasons for moving the con. They include space (for everyone), quality of services, centrally located near transportation, quality of location, etc.

Cost is arguably a non-issue. For someone that doesn't mind travelling to their hotel, the vacation could be cheaper than Lancaster.

I understand the dealer's concerns for paying loading fees and associated parking costs. Those would likely be found at most venues.

I also understand the inconvenience of loading/unloading games, but unlike that trek across the golf course, there are handtrucks and bridges over the street and elevators in Boston.

Don't move it if the increased costs kill it.If the vendors have to pay large sums to park their vans/trucks/trailers for four or five days and people are paying $200+ per night for a room, many people decide not to come. There are also others who make it a family vacation with the wife and kids going to the outlet malls, Dutch Wonderland or touring the Amish countryside. I doubt they would be comfortable in Baltimore outside of the crowded and expensive Inner Harbor.
If it aint broke, don't fix it. As much as I agree that The Host is a dump, I think it's the best compromise between convenience and cost for a group like HMGS.

The vendors aren't going to leave, at least the ones that do a good business and not while customers are buying off the racks. Now if what is happening is that customers are buying less at the cons; that's another matter and may be vendors will show, but only to take orders, which would make sense. Why would anyone want to tote tons of inventory if it is not moving off the floor?

If Historicon moved to any major city, I would likely not attend again which really upsets me. This is my 2nd year and I love it more and more every year. The Host isn't perfect and yes, they can improve greatly, but like someone else said – we know what to expect.

(1) Don't like the rooms? Do like I do and stay elsewhere for much cheaper. I saw A LOT of people walking from their hotels across the street or a few hotels down.

(2) Don't like the food? Don't eat there! I was having stomach issues this weekend so my father was the only one really eating. He went brought Burger King with him since the Host food wasn't good.

(3) Space is a factor and the Host can remedy that by expanding either upward or outward. They have the room and they assuredly have the money. If the Host isn't willing to make more room, hang the issue of us leaving over their head and they will think again.

Just put both cons Cold Wars,and Historicon, in Gettysburg with Fall In.

I just checked the distance to Baltimore, the rest of you should as well. I live in Columbus, OH; Google maps shows it takes only 10 more minutes to get to Baltimore.

A poll on the issue, as stated, is not possible. You would need to specify the new location. And there is the rub.

I'd certainly go to a convention in the DC area. I'd attend the entire weekend. But Baltimore? I'd might turn it into a day trip. Baltimore is not far enough away to justify a room. But it's too far for me to spend 12 hours there and then drive an hour home.

Regarding the space issue at the Host, parking is going to be a problem if the convention attendance increases even by a few hundred I'd guess. The parking lot (including the grassy area of course) is near full. That's my impression anyway. Unless I'm missing a parking area that isn't used, which I very well could have missed. How is that problem going to be solved if there is a significant (over 200+ more attendees) increase?

I can guarantee that if parking at the Host is full when I arrive I will never attend Historicon at that site again. I care that much about that convenience.

"Google maps shows it takes only 10 more minutes to get to Baltimore."

Maybe even faster due to construction! Took me 1 1/2 hours extra than I had anticipated on driving to Lancaster this year. I think about the same last year.

But it's too far for me to spend 12 hours there and then drive an hour home.

Should read:

But it's too far for me to spend 12 hours there and then drive an hour home each day of the convention.

The Host is looking attrocious these days. The halway for the 300 series rooms was totally infected with mold. They did some sort of drastic action with bleach at one point. A real disappointment.

That said, the BCC will be bad for Historicon due to all the added costs to vendors. None of the small ones will be able to afford the extra expense of union help. I do like the idea of the convention moving and growing. The fact is the hobby is growing and there is no more room in the dealer hall for this growth on the business end.

I think if they don't move they should be doing more outreach with their war chest. I am not sure why they are sitting on so much cash other than to think that someone has the idea of making the East chapter perpetual once the endowment is large enough…

I don't have any major problems with the Host. My room was clean a spacious. The food was not bad, reasonably diverse, and affordably priced.

Since I drive to the con, I like the fact that it's in Lancaster and would not want to have it in DC, Baltimore or any other major metropolitan area where you run a real chance of getting into truly snarling traffic. There's nothing worse find your way through unfamiliar streets during rush hour.

"Better" food is also not a big draw for me unless it's located on premise and is similarly priced. I ran three games this year and in most cases if I had to leave to find food I'd have just ended up getting microwave reheated McFood at some fast-food place, since that's all I'd have had time for.

As for the smell, the only ones I noticed were coming from fellow attendees and not the Host.

Brian

As for the smell, the only ones I noticed were coming from fellow attendees and not the Host.

The host seemed to smell a little better this year. It seemed to take longer this year for "Gamer Stink" to set in. I didn't notice it until late Saturday afternoon. I was thinking on Friday some miracle had occured and most gamers have gotten wise to cleaning before appearing in public. Could have been the better ventilation this year.

Don't make a hasty generalization based on what a few people here say. Remember, for every person here who complains that they would not drive the extra distance somewhere else, there is someone else who never attended the convention who suddenly decides to because it now is closer to him or her. In fact, more people might attend if the con were at a "better" location. Since I can't attend, I have no dog in this fight.

Doesn't this thread occur every year?

The A/C was very good this year. I did smell mildew in several places, however. I think it's in the carpet. Having dealt with flooded basements my entire life, the only way to get rid of it is new carpeting.

That's why I stayed in a different hotel.

Here is my 2 cents:

The Host has huge problems. The rest rooms are terrible. The common areas need to be cleaned,and refurbished. Too many stairs up and down to get nowhere.

The con wants more space and more parking. The Host is not going to do either.

Threating the hotel we are leaving is not going to make them spend millions on a expansion project. Lets face it we are not the Auto Show or Tool and Die show.

Moving close to an airport is a good idea, more space is a good idea. You need more if you want some growth.

Going into a UNION City is A TERRIBLE MISTAKE! The giant bank account that everyone fights over will be gone in no time. You will need laborers to move in the dealers, games and anything associated with the con. You have lights or special effects in you game or booth you need an electriction to plug in and turn on you stuff.

Don't laugh or dismiss this. I live in a union city and I am a union employee. This is what happens at our convention center here. It is the same in Philly and everywhere labor unions run the city or town.

Think about the venders! It is logical to think they will pay more for tables at a new venue. Ok but to pay for parking, union labor etc is a lot to ask from some business that do ok but not great. Put yourself in thier shoes. If you let say made 5,000 at the show. Perhaps your cost were 1500 you made a net sale of 3500. Now if you have an additional $800 USD in costs now you are down to a 2700 in sales. Take into acount that 40% is whole sale cost you are left with a profit of 1620 for 4 days. Why would a small to midlevel dealer come? They can do the same money at Cold Wars or the same percentage by running a sale online and skipping the show.

I say move but look at all the hidden costs. Valley Forge is a good option except the flea market is either dead or has to be reworked. The venders pay a license fee of $45 USD to be there. Much better than hundreds of dollars in labor costs and parking.

If I had a choice of dealers or flea markets, I take the dealers every time. That is one of the main reason I go to shows.

Michael

In the last 10 years I have managed to make it twice, once driving in from west Texas and once from south Kansas. There were several years between the two trips. It will be a long time before I go back to that dive, takes me a number of years to forget how bad a place is.

I dont drag my family to that place for a vacation. Why on earth take the family to that dive, when we can go to Orlando. They have voted every year for Orlando, so screw Dutch Wonderland or whatever it is call. So please dont mix family vacation with a trip to Historicon to play your games and shop, and then justify it as a family vacation.

Find a place that has a major interstate highway and major airport next to it. A real convention center and multiple hotel rooms to hold all the attendees that plan to spend overnight.

As of right now I dont plan on returning until the con moves to a new location. But what I plan doesnt really matter does it.

Doug maybe you should think about combining your family vacation to Orlando with the Recon or Hurricon HMGS-South shows.

I like it fine where it is.
Lanncaster is on the cusp of how far I am willing to drive if I am driving solo. Ufortunately with job situations in our club, that is the case.

I also have never had any problems with the facilities, save for the Black Hole of Calcutta in some of the restrooms. THAT problem seems to hjave passed.

Sint aut sunt aut non sint.

Doug, my family loves Lancaster. We stay in the Country Inn suites next door, a closer walk to the Dealer Hall than from the front end of the Host. My wife and daughter-in-law (and this year two other ladies of our family) spent Thursday through Saturday doing Hershey, and train museums, and zoos, and outlet malls, and antique malls, and generally having a great time with each other and our almost-three-year-old. Four years in a row there and not yet out of things to do.

The host is a dump but I think many people are being very cavalier about extra costs and the impact it would have. Why move the convention to get more space and have attendance decline because of increased costs.

Also, while I realize there are space issues how major of a problem is this really? It doesn't seem to me that we have had much attendance growth in recent years. I don't see any reason to believe that attendance will magically skyrocket if the con moves. In fact I'd bet a large sum it declines.

Streitax 28 Jul 2008 12:30 p.m. PST wrote:
A poll on the issue, as stated, is not possible. You would need to specify the new location. And there is the rub.

Baltimore is the leading candidate. I would wish that they talk to National Convention Services to see if they could get a resonable deal at the National Harbour in Maryland. I think they are too far along to try.

VR
James Mattes

CorpCommander 28 Jul 2008 12:38 p.m. PST wrote:
…That said, the BCC will be bad for Historicon due to all the added costs to vendors. None of the small ones will be able to afford the extra expense of union help.

I wish these false rumours would stop. There is no union help at BCC. Yes Pilly, that was the deal breaker with their site.

VR
James Mattes

PraetorianHistorian 28 Jul 2008 12:13 p.m. PST wrote:
If Historicon moved to any major city, I would likely not attend again which really upsets me.

(3) Space is a factor and the Host can remedy that by expanding either upward or outward.

The Host is not going to expand because we say so. They have for years said there were plans. But look around. Where! the parking lot? how about the multimillion dollar golf course? And just where would we go during the time (Summer) when they would be building?

Nope the "pig in a dress" isn't going to the prom.

VR
James Mattes

Michael S Cosentino 28 Jul 2008 1:40 p.m. PST wrote:

The con wants more space and more parking. The Host is not going to do either.

Moving close to an airport is a good idea, more space is a good idea. You need more if you want some growth.

Going into a UNION City is A TERRIBLE MISTAKE!

I say move but look at all the hidden costs.

If I had a choice of dealers or flea markets, I take the dealers every time. That is one of the main reason I go to shows.

Michael

Michael my good friend! Didn't you and I have this same talk in 2002? I am with you all the way. Baltimore does not have the union issue. Missed you at Historicon. Give my best to your wife.

VR
James Mattes

For what it's worth, here is my .02 from a dealers perspective.

I have been attending Historicon for ten years, the past seven as a dealer. I started with one table and I put my stock at the time in the trunk of my car. All I wanted to do as a dealer was cover my expenses at the con, ie, have a free trip to Historicon. It took me a grand total of about one hour to set up my one table back then.

Fast forward seven years; I've got four tables, I rent a van and it takes me eight hours to set up my tables. That said, the show has become a very, very good money maker for me. I have expanded my product offering, I am the US agent for several lines from the UK and here in the US and I do very well for myself.

It takes me six hours to get to Lancaster from Masssachusetts and about ten hours to get home as I fight the weekend traffic from the Jersey Shore, the Hamptons, etc on the way home. I don't mind too muchas the show is a money maker for me.

On the other side of the coin, as much as my gross has gone up (key word there is GROSS), so have my expenses; hotel, gas, tolls, van rental, show tables, meals, etc. It just cost me 2,000.00 this past weekend to attend the show. By the end of the day Friday, I had covered my expenses, so all sales Saturday and Sunday were at a profit.

I ended up having my second best con ever at Historicon this year despite all the doom and gloom predicted.

Bottom line is this; there is no way (as in NO WAY) I am driving to Baltimore (seems to be the flavor of the con as to where the show ends up in 2010). Not gonna happen, no way, no how. What a joy it will be to drive up I95 on a Summer Sunday back to Boston; ten hours will turn into fourteen. And before anyone says stay an extra day; no thanks, that's an extra 250.00 in expenses and then I get to deal with Monday morning rush hour traffic.

Bottom line is who am I, I'm just one guy who takes four tables, big deal, I don't come, the show will go on and all of you will find other things to buy. My point is if the sole reason to move the con is to allow more vendors in, you lose how many due to the extra distance as a result? So in the end, what have you gained?

I'm sure me not going won't be a big deal, but what if Brigade Games, Battle Honours, or Old Glory took a pass, those of you beating the "MOVE THE CON NOW!!" drum or wearing the "MOVE HISTORICON NOW!!" buttons (nice way to make a point, wear a button for four days) would change your tune in a hurry, now wouldn't you?

Regarding all the whining about how the host is a dump; it's come a LONG way from ten years ago. Simple solution; don't stay there, I stay way across the street at The Red Roof Inn; nice and clean there. I had a great time at this con, maybe my best time ever, hanging out with friends, the a/c in the dealer hall lasted all weekend long and I found yet another great restaurant to eat at down there; anyone who complains about the food in Lancaster needs to get a clue.

Just remember this; move it and it's worse, what do you do then? As an old saying goes, be careful what you wish for…………………..

It is an East Con, it should be on/just off RT95. You would appeal a lot further north and south.

Baltimore Inner Harbor is not hard to move around in (as big cities go). Plenty of parking, plenty of venue space, plenty of hotels including some less expensive options close to the center and out on 95. Plenty of eating choices, plenty of things for the family to do.

Baltimore convention center is not run by union labor.

The Host is a mold ridden dump. No wait, calling the Host a dump is not fair to dumps.

If you move it, they will come.

Double G 28 Jul 2008 3:49 p.m. PST Wrote:
…. Not gonna happen, no way, no how. What a joy it will be to drive up I95 on a Summer Sunday back to Boston; ten hours will turn into fourteen.

How does I-95 all the way turn it into 14 hours from 10?
From Boston Commons to the convention center in Baltimore is 406 mi – about 7 hours. Here is the link: link

VR
James Mattes

…. My point is if the sole reason to move the con is to allow more vendors in, you lose how many due to the extra distance as a result? So in the end, what have you gained? ….

That is not really the case. The plan is to expand over time. The first year there is only a magrinal increase in the vendor hall. (about the size of the All Star in Gettysburg). Sure in years two three four etc there will be more room to grow. But there will not be this MASSIVE exhibitor influx ever vendor is dreading. An increase I am sure but not what some expect.
VR
James Mattes

Couple of facts, not to say I am for one or the other:

Apparently the Host was in the process of upgrading their hallways, but the colors and carpet they chose were too dark, so I guess they stopped to regroup, but it will be done in the near future.

The BB is not a union facility, so I am told by those in the know. The facility in Pitsburgh is union, thus why it was scratched off the list right away.

Traffic was not bad on Friday morning in Baltimore, as I drove thought it – down Pratt Street, past the BCC, etc.

The Host is continuing other upgrades in the near future, or so I am told.

Was that fair and balanced enough? :-)

PDF link

For those who do not know Baltimore. This weekend I am going to do a photo walk around. For access I do not think you can find a easier to get site. There is light rail to the airport, MARC trains all the way to D.C.

coming from the North it is right off I-95:

Take exit 53 to merge onto I-395 N toward Downtown/M L King Blvd 1.3 mi
22. Continue on S Howard St 0.2 mi
23. Turn right at W Pratt St 0.2 mi
To: 1 W Pratt St, Baltimore, MD 21201

A blind man could hit it with a bb gun.

VR
James Mattes

If Baltimore is being considered, why not move it back to the Fair Grounds in Timonium? It worked so well the year Fall-In was held there,. All I remember was praise for that venue and the travel options to it. Yeah, right.

James,

If you're going to do a photo walk this weekend and would like a wing-man for the afternoon who knows the city please give me a shout. I would be happy to meet you somewhere around the harbor and make the circuit.

Mark

Bad Painter 28 Jul 2008 4:50 p.m. PST WROTE:
….why not move it back to the Fair Grounds in Timonium? …

laugh now, did you know that for most of exhibitors it was their best Fall In!? Did you know that it was the best attended Fall In!? Did you know it set the all time Day Trip record for ANY of our conventions?

I will give you the place sucked for layout and host hotel. I did the walk through with Bob Coggins and Fred Hubig. The first words out of my mouth was "We have to carpet this puppy"

And YES the convention lost money, about 10K in part over runs on add on and living history folks. We could have fought the hotel charging us for meeting space. I was there when they offered them up free and then they charged us on the way out!

VR
James Mattes