"Union Heavy Artillery Flags" Topic

OK, so I know the colors for the Union Heavy Artillery regiments were a National flag and the yellow artillery regimental flag.

When they were used as infantry in Virginia in 1864 they were often split up into separate battalions. What flags did the separate battalions use? If one retained the yellow regimental flag, then what about the other battalions? What did they carry?

No, they became ordinary infantry and did what infantry did. They carried both flags side by side.

And, IIRC, artillery flags have a red ground, since that's the artillery branch color. Yellow is cavalry.

Yes, they carried both flags, but did the separate battalions EACH have a set of flags? Did one battalion carry the colors, and the others went flagless?

And the regimental color for artillery is yellow, not red. Here is an example of the 4th NY Heavy Artillery flag.

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While they were split into battalions due to their unwieldy size, this was an improvization for the field. I doubt that the regiments had duplicate sets of colors handy. As a guess (and from reenacting experience of improvising in the field) I would guess that they would have given each battalion one of the colors. It should be noted that the colors were not just there for decoration, they had an important function acting as a guide in certain formations. Each battalion would have needed one. So, I'd say, put the national colors with the "1st battalion" (the one being run by the colonel) and the regimental with the other.

It should be noted that the Heavy Artillery were not the only ones who faced this problem. When a large, new regiment was attached to a veteran brigade it would often be much larger than the other regiments. At Gettysburg the 148th PA was larger than all the other regiments in Cross' brigade put together. The 148th operated in two battalions at Gettysburg (sorry, don't know how they handled the flags). I'm sure this must have happened a lot. As a reenacment battalion commander I can say from personal experience just how awkward it can be to maneuver a large regiment. The biggest one I've ever seen had about 600 men and it was a monster. The 300 or so that was the average strength at Gettysburg is about the optimum.

Yeah, I just reread this morning in Gordon Rhea's To the North Ann River how the 4th NY Heavy Artillery's 3 battalions were split between the three corps of the Army of the Potomac. It makes me more curious how they handled the flag issue. It seems most of the HA regiments,and perhaps all, were split into 3 battalions. Even if you give one the national color and one the regimental color that leaves one without. So I think they had to have had a different solution.

Its a perplexing question. Maybe there was only one regimental color, but multiple national colors?

Thanks for everyone's input.

Interesting. Of course, the regulations state that a regiment has to field at least five companies to rate any colors at all. As I recall, the heavy artillery regiments had 12 companies, so if they were split into three battalions of four companies each, the colors might have stayed off the field entirely. How they dealt with the question of guides for the battalions is another matter. There are obscure references to "camp colors" in the regulations that were apparently used as markers for things like reviews. Perhaps they were pressed into service and ad hoc color guards were created for them. But I think you are correct that if additional colors were used they were far more likely to be national colors than regimental colors. It's an interesting issue.

Of course, my initial interest was sparked by Don Troiani's painting Forlorn Hope.

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It made me wonder about making a HA regiment for JR3, split into three battalions. If you gave a national and the yellow regimental colors to one battalion, what would you do for the other two? :)

rmaker: Artillery Regimental flags were yellow and Cavalry blue IAW 1861 reg's

I think Scott W has already listed the key points, however I would add: Colors remain with the Col usually.
Look speciifcally at Scott's point about number of companies. The new Infantry regiments of 1861 had 3 Bns of 8 cos and so were authorized colors for each with the battalion designation (e.g. Second Battalion 19th Infantry).
The HA Bns were intended more for manning fixed batteries, forts, and entrenched camps and provided more Field Officers to command groups of guns.
Cleburne1863: I did a quick survey of the Overland campaign and missed your reference to 4th NYHA. By Dec 64, all HA deployed around Petersburg were serving as single regiments according to OR. Why not deploy a BIG regiment ILO a Brigade?

Man of Few Words, they are listed in the Artillery Brigades of each corps at the Battle of the Wilderness.

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I guess they were infantry support or escort? By the time of Harris Farm, three companies of the 2nd Bn 4th NY HA had been attached to Kitching's brigade. They had 440 men. Gordon Rhea's To the North Anna River pg 165.

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At the same battle, the 1st MA HA definitely fought at three battalions. So did the 1st ME HA during its assault at Petersburg, each battalion commanded by a major.

Using JR3 rules, it just makes more sense to have them as separate battalions of 360-480 men each. Hence, what flags to use for the miniatures of the three different battalions.

Well, let me start by saying I have very little basis for my comments other than text that appears in the "Longest Night" which is not a primary source.

The Heavy Artillery units were not "regiments" in the formal sense of things. It appears to me they were a conglomeration of artillerists thrown together to form a combat unit.

I for one have never seen their "regimental flag".

I would suggest you provide each independent battalion with a Stars and Stripes. If you must have a "regimental flag", I'd go with yellow.

mjc

A few notes: The 3-battalion, 8-company-per-battalion 'new regiments' that Man of Few Words mentions were for the ten new regiments of the Regular Army only. The volunteer regiments retained the old 10-company (usually) 1 battalion organization. (Actually, a battalion was defined as 'two or more companies maneuvering as an independent body' so in theory a regiment could be broken down into five battalions--I've never heard of this being done.)

The heavy artillery were trained as both infantry and artillery. As noted, they were expected to man fortifications and supply both the gunners and the troops manning the trenches. They were not just 'conglomeration of artillerists thrown together'. By all accounts, they were very well drilled and disciplined (having little else to do for the years they spent manning the Washington forts). I've never read anything about how the duties were assigned, however. Were they all trained as gunners AND infantry, or were they specialized in their tasks? The cozy posting of the heavy artillery made them very attractive and they found many volunteers wanting to join them (especially after the draft started in the North). As a result the heavy artillery regiments were enormously over-strength, some having as many as 1,800 men--more than many brigades! When Grant emptied out the forts and brought the 'Heavies' south to join the Army of the Potomac the veterans were amazed to see these brigade-sized regiments.

Thanks Scott. I left out "Regular" between new and Infantry. Rather than questioning colors for these Battalions, I would wonder what their status would be: they are trained, they served as long as 3 years, but were never under fire. Were they "Veteran" or "Green" or, by some definition "Elite" Capital Guard and all?

Looked into the sage of the 4th NY HA not just in Rhea's "To the North Anna River" but also "Cold Harbor" and the OR.
3rd and 1st Bns were assigned to Artillery Brigades of II and VI Corps, respectively; 2nd Bn was in the Hv Art Bde of the V Corps, initially. By 31 May all three Bns united in II Corps Art Bde under command of COL John C. Tidball who was the Regimental Commander. At that time 6th and 15th NYHA were in Artillery Reserve for "escorts and guards" acccording to BG Hunt. Similar duties for 4th NYHA likely. 3rd Bn had been used for picket duties and engineering tasks before other Bns arrived. Entire Regiment deployed into entrenchments at Cold Harbor again in a picket role. By the end of Jun 1st and 2nd Bn reinforced 1st and 2nd Bdes, respectively, 3rd Div II Corps.
Doesn't seem to need a stand of colors for most of these duties and, as I said earlier, colors likely with COL Tidball in II Corps.

Cleburne1863,
Not trying to beat dead animals which I can do quite well, I reviewed Gordon Rhea and the OR to get an understanding of the original question. I think Bn colors are a moot point. Not arguing with Rhea but his use of the term Battalion may mislead you. See Scott W's explanation of battalions, above. The three companies of 4th NYHA were D,H,& K, not a standard grouping of designations, more reflective of availability or seniority of commanders. The units of 4th NYHA were assigned as trainguards until the disasterous attacks ordered by Grant caused excessive casualties. Everybody was thrown in, so the 2nd Bn was like unto "cooks and clerks of Bastogne". Kitchings HA Bde was transfered to V Corps on 13 May but 2d Bn 4th NYHA was not a part of it. Probably just close at hand when needed.
By 29 May, Tyler's reinforcing HA Div (5 regt's)was broken up to provide additional muskets to depleted formations.
Rhea's description of the Bns of the 1st Mass HA is not reflected in any report in OR. I would surmise the use of battalion here is similar to division in a 10 company regiment, with field grade supervision.
Rhea cited 76 casualties for 4th NY at Spotsyvania but they reported 12 KIA and 60 WIA for the regiment during that time, not near 20% of the Regiment, though telling for those 3 companies.
I will have to look further to discuss the 1st Me HA deployment.
Conclusion: I doubt HA Bns deployed with individual colors.

Yes, I'm coming to the conclusion that the battalions did not have separate colors. I think for the most part (4th NY HA excepted) a HA regiment stayed together, but broke into battalion maneuver elements in combat.

From a drill stand point, ad hoc battalions without a color guard to guide on would have been a challenge to maneuver. 3/4 full companies would have been around 300/400 men. I imagine the practical answer would be that the center company would have designated a color guard group that the major commanding would have stayed near. When I left hard core reeancting a number of years ago, I was coming to the conclusion that the company and battlaion guides, who used the company guide flags or guidons in the barrels of their guns at shoulder arms were much more important that we can know today as to how things really got done. I think you are onto something Scott with the potential use of these flags or extra camp type flags pressed in service for an ad hoc color guard. It is really hard to get this type of understanding from the drill manuals.

If I was commanding one of these battalions and I had any time at all to get this organized I would have done that. Remember that this is command and control in combat for these units.

Bill

I also don't think the HA battalions within the regiment were ad hoc formations. Each one had a major in command, and apparently formal numerical designations.

Interesting subject!

HV Art Regiments were not intended for maneuver so there would not likely be provisions for it. Scott has something with the ad hoc notion.
Since there were none in the Regular Army, I do not have a summary of the authorizing legislation. I suspect that they were authorized 1 Col, 1 Lt Col, and 2 Maj's to be used as the Commander requires. The designation of the battalions is not the problem but the compositiion.

Not near enough written on these units. I have long had a fascination with these regiments and the four CS Bns in the defenses of Richmond. Serious question before: are they veteran or green?

I'd say no matter how well trained and drilled, they are would be green until they have seen combat for the first time.

It's hard to say, really. Take an outfit like the soon-to-be-Iron Brigade. At their first action they performed as well as any veteran troops. Indeed, their 'greenness' allowed them to perform better than most veterans. But they were clearly well-drilled, too. My own Great-great-grandfather, George Washburn, was a major in the 16th Connecticut. He was one of only two officers in the regiment with prior military experience. The regiment had only been in service for a month when they went into action at Antietam. No combat experience and little chance to even drill, they fell apart almost immdiately. Drill can't replace combat experience, but since parade ground drill WAS the same as the battlefield tactics, a well-drilled unit is far more likely to hold together and perfom well than a unit which is not.

I'm going to resurrect this thread from the past!

I came across an enlightening passage in the history of the 4th NYHA. Pgs 349-52. They are discussing Ream's Station. The history describes how the Third Battalion carried the yellow regimental colors. They were almost captured.

"Major Williams, seeing that everything had gone out
from our left, and recognizing the fact that without support we were bound to go to Petersburg, now ordered the battalion color-bearer, Sergeant, afterward Lieutenant Lynes, to carry the colors to the left rear and plant them on the railroad embankment for a rallying-point. To reach his point without running into the advancing enemy, Lynes was compelled to make a wider detour to the left. When near the foot of the slope I saw him drop the colors, throw up his hands and fall to the ground, rolling over into the ditch.

At the same time an advanced skirmisher from the Johnnies started for the flag. It was the yellow regimental color and quite pretty in workmanship, and I hated to see it lost; so I started for the same point. Having the shorter distance to go, I reached it first, and as I stooped to pick up the flag the Johnny fired and sent a bullet through my hat. Seeing he had missed, he fixed his bayonet and charged me. I unlimbered my revolver, and when he arrived in good shooting distance opened fire. He was persuaded to stop."

Then it continues from another soldier's perspective in the Second Battalion.

"You will recall the charge that was ordered to retake the guns over in the cornfield a little east of the railroad. You will remember that I was one of the color guard and bore the Second Battalion (New York State) colors. Major Arthur said: ' Young man, you stand here until I order you to move.'

A new wrinkle? A National color, State Color, and Regimental Color carried into battle? One for each battalion? Its pretty clear each battalion operated as a separate unit, and were commanded by their own majors. The Second Battalion had a state color, and the Third Battalion carried the yellow regimental color. That would sound like it leaves the First Battalion carrying the National colors.

A breakthrough?

I'm not sure there necessarily were both a separate regimental and a state colour carried by the 4th NYHA. In Frederick Phisterer, New York in the War of the Rebellion, 1861 to 1865 (3rd Edition), Vol 1, (1912) is a list of the flags in the possession of the state.

The 4th NYHA had two surviving flags:

1. Silk flag, National, in very bad condition but little of it remaining, mounted upon original staff, spearhead missing. Painted upon the staff "4th Artillery".

2. Yellow silk banner, in fair condition, mounted upon original staff. Upon each side of the banner appears the arms and motto of the State of New York, also crossed cannon. Inscription, "4th Artillery New York Vols."

However, when one looks at the colours of the other New York heavy artillery regiments things get interesting.

2nd NYHA – remains of two national flags; two yellow flags, one unidentifiable and the other with crossed cannons.

5th NYHA – three national flags; two yellow colours, one with crossed cannons and the other with the arms of the city of Brooklyn; one blue colour with the arms of the city of New York.

6th NYHA – two National colours; two yellow colours, one with crossed cannons and the other with the arms of the city of New York, one blue colour with US arms but still inscribed with "6th Regiment Artillery N. Y. Vols."

7th NYHA – two National colours; two yellow colors both with crossed cannons; blue colour with the arms of the State of New York. This last colour was presented in 1862 when the 7th NYHA was still the 113th Infantry but the flag is specifically stated to have been carried at Petersburg on June 16, 1864 when the flag was captured by the Confederates.

8th NYHA – one National colour; one blue regimental flag inscribed with the unit's former designation of "129th Regiment Infantry N. Y. Vols."

9th NYHA – one National colour; two yellow flags, one unidentifiable and the other with the arms of the State of New York.

14th NYHA – one National colour; one yellow colour with crossed cannons.

15th NYHA – one National colour.

16th NYHA – two National colours; one yellow colour with crossed cannons; one blue colour with the arms of the city of New York.
While the list would also be including replacement flags it does appear possible that some New York HA regiments may have had three flags in the field: a national colour, a yellow crossed cannon regimental colour and a yellow or blue city or state of New York colour.

Thanks for adding your observations! From a practical wargaming perspective, the use of the three different colors would be both aesthetically pleasing and provide an easy way to identify the units.

Cheers,

Christopher

Thank you Ryan. That is very informative!

I would add that just because a flag isn't listed in the possession of the State of New York 50 years after the end of the war, doesn't mean it didn't exist and wasn't carried during the war.

Regardless, its a great list. Taking all the information available, we're beginning to get a clearer picture of what flags were carried by heavy artillery regiments. At the very least, in the case of the 4th NYHA.

From a wargaming perspective, I think its safe to say you could paint and base the 4th NYHA as 3 different battalions, with a National for the First Battalion, New York State Flag for the Second Battaltion (but we don't know yet blue or yellow, and what seals), and the yellow regimental color for the Third Battalion. I think that would add a nice variety to the game board.

To begin with the 1st Maine Heavy Artillery Regiment were in Tyler's Division, II Corps. A unit comprised of all the the "Heavy Infantry" apart from the 4th NY.

The unit isn't in the OB in Rhea's Spotsylvania book as that only covers up to 12th May and they joined on the 18th.

They are however in his North Anna OB and the components are in the one for Cold Harbor.

By that time the Division (it had no brigades) had been broken up and the Regiments reassigned to 1st Brigade/1st Division, 4th Brigade/1st Division, 4th Brigade/2nd Division, 3rd Brigade/3rd Division as part of the Corps adjustments following its high casualty rate.

For what ever reason the 4th NYHA 3rd Bat. is shown with the Artillery Brigade II Corps over the entire period.

The 4th NYHA 2nd Bat. Starts in the V Corps Artillery Brigade then shifts to the Heavy Artillery Brigade in 4th Division,V Corps to join 6th NYHA and the 1st & 3rd Battalions of the 15th NYHA.

It then drops off the Cold Harbor OB when the Heavy Artillery Brigade becomes an Independent Brigade within the V Corps 3rd Division.

The 4th NYHA 1st Batt. Starts in the VI Corps Artillery Brigade and remains there.

The VI Corps has the 2nd Connecticut HA with the 2nd Brigade/1st Division and 1st Vermont with the 2nd Brigade/2nd Division for North Anna and Cold Harbor. It also gains the 9th NYHA in 2nd Brigade/3rd Division for the Cold Harbor OB.

I've read that when the 54th Mass. charged Battery Wagner it had to split into two battalions (5 cos. each) because of the narrowness of the island. The colonel commanded the 1st (front) battalion and had the national colors, and the lt. col. commanded the 2nd (rear) battalion and had the state colors. This was the colonel's ad hoc decision.

As for heavy artillery regiments, I always assumed that they came in 3 battalions of 4 cos. each, just like the cavalry. I would think that the state flag mentioned WAS the regimental color, not a 3rd color. Evidently many regiments used some sort of state flag for their regimental color (not that all states had official flags back then -- many of those used today are based on ones carried in the ACW, not vice versa). I would guess that the 1st btn. had the nat. color, the 2nd had the reg. color, and the 3d btn. possibly carried a "fanion," a lesser flag, not officially a "color," but that's only a guess.

The thing is Don, is that the 4th NYHA history is pretty clear that the state flag mentioned was NOT the yellow regimental color. The yellow regimental color was carried by the Third Battalion. If you read the passage above (or the original), it talks specifically about Sergeant Lynes getting shot carrying it, the author's specific description that it was the yellow flag, and his efforts to save it. Then, the story changes to the perspective of the color bearer of the Second Battalion carrying the state colors who was NOT shot. They are clearly two different and distinct flags. Unless the First Battalion carried a fanion or camp color, and the National color was not carried at all, then the logical conclusion is that each battalion carried some form of full-sized flag. National Flag, state color, and yellow regimental color.

Now, this is just one heavy artillery regiment. We can't jump to the conclusion that many, or even any other HA regiments used a similar system. But I think the evidence points to at least one that did, so there is a good chance others might have.

OK, could be you're right. Or, in effect, the state flag was the "fanion."

Before reading this I had assumed that "regimental flag" and "state flag" were synonymous. After reading it I went back to the Pennsylvania Civil War flag site pacivilwarflags.org and found flags that there were regiments that had separate national, state and regimental flags, for example link that were carried at the same time. Having three flags and carrying three into combat are not the same thing, but it does suggest three flags in the field were plausible.

Bill N: What your 2nd link (for the 118th PA) calls a state color looks like a national color to me -- it just has the state seal in the Union (blue part) along with the stars -- this seems to have been a fairly common practice. Note that it was received in 1862, whereas the other national color was received in 1863, probably a replacement.

I just threw that one out as an example, because it had all three flags. If you look through that site though you will find examples of overlapping national flags and state colors.

As an example the 51st PA's late war flags include an 1864 presentation national flag, a state color issued spring of 1864 and captured at Spotsylvania, a replacement state color issued in July 1864 and "string remnants" of an 1864 presentation regimental flag.

Maybe this is unique to Pennsylvania. I do not recall seeing anything comparable in the online collections for Ohio, West Virginia or New York. In some instances in those collections the regimental flag contains the national arms, in some the state arms and in some they are of a different pattern.

Unlike other northern states most Pennsylvania infantry regiments carried only one flag. This was a national flag with the Pennsylvania arms in the canton This flags was issued by the state. Usually no regimental flag was carried at all.

The 51st Pennsylvania was unique in that throughout the war it carried three flags. The first was a Pennsylvania national/state flag as described above. During the course of the war three such flags were issued, the first of these in November 1861, the second in April 1864 and the third in July 1864.(Flags 1985.072, 1985.069 and 1985.066)

The other two flags were a series of national and regimental flags presented to the regiment by the citizens of Norristown, Pa. The first two flags were presented in April 1861 (1985.067 and 1985.071). The second two flags date from September 1862 (1985.070 and a national flag now in the collection of the Montgomery County Historical Association). The last two "Norristown flags" were presented to the regiment in March 1864 (Flags 1985.068 and 1985.073)

Not sure about other states, but when it came to Pennsylvania flags. The stars and stripes issued that had the state seal in the center of the Union were called "state" flags or colors. Without the seal they were nationals.
In Bill N link above that takes you to a National Color for the 118th PVI. When this Regiment left Philadelphia the "State Colors" could not be located. They then took a flag that had been presented to the company commander of H company and carried that.
Now this adds another factor to the questions of colors. That is the question of company colors. Besides this one for the 118th PVI, our local library has one that was presented to one of the companies of the 138th PVI and the American Legion Post has one from a company in the 148th PVI.

I have read of regiments that received two issues of colors during the war, but turned in more that number of colors at the end of the war.