"Why did RPGing Go the Direction That It Did?" Topic

Typical D&D campaign:

1. You walk into a tavern.

2. A guy in the tavern is knifed. He happens to have a treasure map in his pack.

3. You take the map, go to the dungeon, kill people, get stuff.

4. Repeat steps 1-3.

There were certainly other directions that it could have taken. For example, does anybody remeber an early GDW rpg called "En Garde!"? It started life as a fencing game, however, it quickly became a very political one. Characters never went anywhere near a dungeon, and game turns were months rather than 10 second rounds.

You played a 17th Century swordsman (like D'Artagnan). You courted various mistresses, performed heroics (or sometimes rather laughable cowardice) on the battlefield, joined gentleman's clubs, gambled, applied for government jobs, and rose through the ranks in the military. There was no GM, as everything was effectively flow-chart and decision based. You might end your career as a Field Marshal. More likely you would end it on the point of a rapier belonging to an aggrieved lover, or member of a rival regiment.

Anyway, a few other early rpgs did follow this format, such as Superhero 2084.

There were other models as well, such as Star Faring, by Flying Buffalo, in which you "roleplayed" the entire crew of a starship, and which had very open ended rules, that really served more as guidelines for your imagination than anything else. Among other things, it involved a combat system that really encouraged you to make the rules up as you went along.

Certainly, modern rpging is firmly following the original D&D model. Even if the rules have changed greatly, none of the basic premises have changed at all.

So why did this model win out over other possibilities?

Easier?

Context.

I'm trying to get my kids to READ more Fantasy, SF and History in order that they have the framework for DnD to work on. Otherwise it is merely Dungeon Crawls

I don't think we EVER followed that particular story arc, Meph'… and we did AD&D, Top Secret, Boot Hill, Call of Cthulhu, Morrow Project, Aftermath, Twilight 2000, Arms Law, Bushido, Chivalry and Sorcery, En Garde, and more I can't remember.

"which had very open ended rules, that really served more as guidelines for your imagination than anything else" Well, D&D used to be that way until the late Gygax and friends discovered that financial rewards were maximized by strict rules and LOTS of rule books/character books/spell books, etc. Who came first in that marketing scheme, TSR or GW? Rant off.

As to your original question, I think people are more familiar with fairy tale stuff than 18th century foppery and are thus more comfortable fantasizing in that genre.

Check out Ken Burnside's Minimus RPG for a contrast …

Who owns the rights to En Garde, anyhow?

Well I for one do enjoy dungeon crawls. Now that doesn't mean the D&D games all like that. Interweaved in the game is politics, investigations, and love affairs. But give me a well thought out dungeon crawl and I am a happy gamer. Does it make me any less of a role-player, maybe but then you haven't heard of the legendary "Wil Blunt"!

Chris

Non sure if I understand what you're saying? Are you saying it's one continuous dungeon crawl?

Have you played Primetime Adventures, Trollbabe, Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard or Polaris?

Thatīs roleplaying. Thatīs the way we play now. And itīs not even close to the format you address.

"1. You walk into a tavern.

2. A guy in the tavern is knifed. He happens to have a treasure map in his pack.

3. You take the map, go to the dungeon, kill people, get stuff."

If your concerned about the ethics, EnGarde was no better. You got to cheat on your wife, indulge in prostitution and bribe officials.

I think I can remember playing exactly one 'dungeon crawl'…
even that was lots of fun though.

Stopped playing D&D right after I found out there were other sorts of games… Traveller, Runequest, Call Of Cthulhu… never looked back.

I use the tavern scenario (or something similar) once per campaign. As my campaigns last years, or in some cases decades (Traveller), I don't repeat those steps. I do far more political intrigue, working for powerful figures, getting involved in business that you should not be involved in, and general mayhem making. There is no shortage of comedy as my PCs stumble through life…

And, this is all with two ancient rule books. Runequest 2, and Traveller. That's it. In fact, if I base evening played on those two items, I get out for fractional cents per game.

Guess the tavern scenario is probably the best way to introduce new gamers to what is essentialy an unusual hobby. Apart from games of cowboys and indians and other such pretend games, role playing is probably a concept that is foreign to most of the non-gaming public. As such, the tavern idea was probably a great concept for a bunch of novices. Gave the GM and party a good reason to be together. And the dungeon crawl was a more or less predetermined path that was easy to run.

It is then up to the GM and party as to where they want to go from there. Some groups never truly develop past this point, happy with the hoarding of treasure and raiding of dungeons, while other gamers evolve and start looking at other avenues of role playing…..character development, intrigue, politics, etc.

It went that way because we were in the 8th grade….seriously, I can't think of any complex plot lines until I stumbled gleefully into Traveller.

Then the whole scope of adventure opened wide for me.

Back in the days of white box D&D, GMs were giants in the Earth. They actually worked at in creating adventures.
Then, like all human endeavors, things degenerated. Lesser humans who were not capable of sustaining excellence took over.

You can't get good milk anymore either, and today's music sucks too.

I think there's a much more immediate appeal to, "There's a door. Do you open it? Yes? A monster jumps out at you!" than to, "How much of the month do you spend socialising at court? That gains you 3 status points."

Having said that, I used to enjoy En Garde (I had a character called Andre Solaire), but then I used to enjoy rolling up Traveller character histories too. I was a strange kid.

I loathe dungeon crawls and have avoided them (if at all possible) since about 1983, when I discovered that there were other forms of plots and adventures to be had.

usually our groups were more like this…

1) you enter a tavern/bar/whathaveyou..

2) you meet the other PCs

3) someone comes up with a reason to start a fight

4) half the town is a smoking wreck, many dead bodies and the pcs are all wanted by the locals who where SUPPOSED to hire them..

heheh….good times:-)

"Who owns the rights to En Garde, anyhow?"

I think it's a Frank Chadwick game.

KFrye

Straight up dungeon crawls are also the model that works best on the computer.

'why did RPGing go the direction that it did?'

Easy – the GM hadn't written what happened if yougo the OTHER direction.

(GM) 'You see a Tavern'

(Wash the Barbarian) 'Hmmm…. is that a Historic monument to the Battle of Kwnjii on the other side of the road?'

(Eric (Cleric)) 'Ooooh Kwanjii? we studied that at Seminary. I go over and look at it. There's an inscription here Wash. I read it…. what does it say?'

(GM) 'errrrrrr'

(Saladin the Paladin) 'Yes, the Kwanjite wars are my favourite period of history. what DOES it say GM?'

(GM) 'They are having a happy hour at the Tavern. There are Strippers and everything.'

(Nate (Assassin)) 'Strippers malippers, I wanna see the Kwanji monument. tell us, omniscient voice that describes our universe, what does the inscription say?'

(GM). 'You are suddenly arrested for…. for Jaywalking. Yes, for Jaywalking. The jail is full, so the police take you to…. THE TAVERN. Inside the Tavern you see a fascinationg looking dwarf, waving a map and a bag of gold'

(ALL) 'What are the strippers like?'

(GM) 'They are on a Lunch-break. The dwarf says 'you look like a likely bunch of tough, brave, poor individuals, willing to rsik your very lives on a quest. There will be goblins with magic swords, maidens who are still maidens despite having been held by the Goblins for some time, and a dragon'

(Eric) 'I sneak round the back to watch the strippers having lunch.'

Pat

I wonder where my En Garde playsheet went for old Claude Derriere..

Who's up for toadying at Bothwell's?

Cheers, --- Wheldrake

Other than D&D itself, are there actually any current RPGs that follow this model ?

Looking back in time, I see games like Runequest, Traveller, Twillight 2000, Toon, Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon

Looking at the current generation I see Vampire the Masquerade, Heroquest, Reign, Wushu, Feng Shui and countless others.

Dungeon crawling is only the direction RPG's went in, if by "RPG" you mean "Dungeons and Dragons"

emckinney "Who owns the rights to En Garde, anyhow?"

engarde.co.uk/index.html

"If your concerned about the ethics, EnGarde was no better. You got to cheat on your wife, indulge in prostitution and bribe officials."

But at least it was historical! We used play Flashing Blades and it was probably one of the most enjoyable games I ever played, and I have been doing pen and paper roleplaying for over 30 years now.

I guess you are just not used to seeing someone get knifed once a week…

There are some really hillarious responses here- great thread! :)

I had a similar question recently- after reading Burning Wheel, but mine was almost the opposite- when did rpgs get so pretentious and philosophical? Burning Wheel has all this stuff about "dealing with disruptive players" and seems to take its self far too seriously.

I prefer something in the middle realm- and I also prefer roleplaying that emphasises qualities inherent to the word its self; improvisation, acting etc..

To get back to the original question though- look at the so called MMORPGs for your answer: they are touted as roleplaying games, but really just a sport. It's easier for Joe and Jane Six Pack to play World of Warcraft or a typical dungeon hack D&D style than to put in the time, effort, thought and creativity it requires for the rpg experience.

A good rpg group also requires some chemistry between all of the players for it to work, and a collective understanding about what people are there for- things which are tricky to balance without some communication between all of the players- hence the diatribes in alot of games like Burning Wheel. This kind of writing in a RPG book makes it more like taking a college course in Sociology- and less like getting ready to play a sweet game with some friends.

Funny though- this is a dungeon crawl board after all…

The answer is probably a bit more simple than you think:

Meeting in a tavern=the Prancing Pony in the Fellowship of the Ring. It was the core story for D&D, so it isn't surprising that they'd borrow the scene. Besides, it explains easily how strangers socialize, get together, and then go out and get into trouble.

Dungeon Crawls are essentially narrative flow charts: go this way, get this; go that way, get that. They are easily managed, easily planned, and help with players who aren't feeling as creative as your average improv theater major.

DM: There is an ork in the room guarding a chest.

Player 1: I attack the orc before he can react.

DM: Ah..(rolls some dice)…the orc slides dead to the floor and drops his chipped half moon axe.

Player 1: I open the chest.

DM: The chest is locked.

Player 1: I check the orc's body for keys.

DM: You don't find anything.

Player 2: SIGH…whatever. I pick the lock.

DM: Ahh…(rolls some dice.) Your lock pick attempt fails.

Player 2: But I'm a thief! With lockpicks! This is all I can do!

DM: ….(shrugs)

Player 1: I take the orc's axe and use it to bash the chest open.

DM: Ahhh…(rolls some dice)…your bash attempt succeeds.

Player 1: Aren't you…uh..going to roll for treasure type or…

DM: Inside the chest was a smaller orc guarding an even smaller chest…the smaller ork is momentarily stunned and covered in broken bits of wood.

Player 1: (Glaring at DM) Uh..so…when's that #@#$ing pizza getting here anyway?. Bull#@#$ makes me hungry.

Player 2: Yeah, I'm gonna go play some Fallout 3 upstairs. You two have fun.

did any D&D modules actually have the characters meet that way ?

I dont think the idea is even mentioned in the original DMG or the brown box set. Its something players added from LOTR, not because it was something given as an example

"So why did this model win out over other possibilities?"

Um, it didn't.

Further, for those it did – that's the way they wanted the game to go. It's a quick and easy way to run a spontaneous adventure that doesn't need lots of background relationship work on the DMs part, any thinking by the PCs (well some do) about what this might stir up, and it's kind of fun every so often.

Faust23, uh, I was in the military (age 21 in 1971.) Most outlandish dungoncrawls were indeed DM'ed by 8th and 9th graders and it always amazed me how Monty Haul/slavish they were. Defeat random wandering giants rats and find magical weapons and gold pieces by the bagful.

John the OFM, I still have those on a shelf. LOL, as always, you overstate completely to make a point. Try running a game for most people today where you give them a brief handout about races and classes then make them discover it without a rule book to allow min-max techniques to be discovered. Unless there are lots of books to buy I suspect the players aren't interested today. A lot of people were the same way then as today in case you forget. Cosider when the skinny paperback supplements Greyhawk or Blackmoor came out. Every party had a thief, druid, and/or monk for a while.

Gracias,

Glenn