"Is Shako 2 value for money?" Topic

From the outset. i'll make it clear that I am very much a Shako fan, but at £27.50, I'm not convinced that the revised version is value for money.

Clearly I won't really get to suss out the evolution of the rules until I've played them although the changes seem detail rather than substantial. I applaud the improved quality of illustrations to clarify/examplify the rules.

Apparently a last minute decision was made to go for black and white rather than full colour, presumably to cut cost. It looks as if ithey wanted to fill the book with "eye candy" on a par with the Warhammer type books but by deciding to go for black and white without reconsidering the impact on the art work has been a major disaster.

Conliffe's introduction on the first page is over a photo of miniatures crossing a bridge. By the bottom of the page you can only differentiate the text from the shadows under the bridge with great difficulty. Fortunately none of the rules overlie a photo but the problem of unattractive failed conversions from colour to two tone ruins the quality of the production.

No, there's a lot of dismal pictures and plates in this book I do not need but which I have clearly payed.

I slimmer revised version could have been published for much less. It didn't need the failed eye candy. Shako's strength as a set of rules would have been enough.

Jeremy can I ask what rules were revised?

I have been hesitating to shell out that much for a revision to a set of rules. Even though Shako is one of my favourite sets that gets regularly pressed into use for anything from SYW to Mexican-American War, via the Peninsula of course. Jeremy's comments mean that I will definitely wait until I can look at a copy before buying.

Dave

What is the thing that makes the rules stand out for people ? I have heard alot about these rules but know nothing about their content.

Shane

Well I have not purchased the 1st edition but have played the game a few times. I know the NJ guys are big fans and most are Napoleonic Nuts. They think it is a great game so I will prob purchase them at Historicon.

VR
James Mattes

Shane,

Quick, simple (hopefully they still are) give the feel of the period

Shane:

Take a look at the entry on the rules directory:

link

Covers the first edition but 2nd is the same game, but cleaned up and with more detailed examples etc. Not sure of the other changes…

I received my copy a couple days ago. The new improved rules are superb. The system continues to give a fantastic feel for the period, plays fast and can support small, medium or large scale Napoleonic conflicts – something most other battalion level rules don't achieve to the same degree, without being mired in charts or complex rules interpretations – my opinion.

Having said that – the new version is much larger than the first edition, including expanded army lists and lots of extra pictures. When I skimmed through the rules, the illustrations are fantastic and add immensely to the explanation of the game mechanics. The introduction is a problem as the text provided by the author, and the two key support personnel, is printed over photos – making the introductory text difficult to read. This is a nuiscance that may get corrected in future prints of these rules, but in no way subtracts from the core content of the rules.

As I continue to preach, the subject content is absolutely superb. The addition of quite a few pictures, both of figures and Napoleonic prints, provides some class to the production, but Jeremy's comments hold true that the photos in black and white aren't as appealing to some and I think were originally supposed to be color. Also, the size of the rules, combined with the associated increase in cost, will bother some people who will struggle with the justification to spend the additional funds up front (or buy the rules later off someone else).

I, for one, am glad I bought the rules. My friends and I have played Shako for years and the extra few dollars is a small price to pay to support what I consider the best set of Napoleonic rules available (for battalion level games). I will ignore the pictures of the painted figures, although they do break up the text nicely from a readability point of view. My focus is the game mechanics and Shako II looks great, especially with the unit illustrations that go with the text.

I took a look at the new version. It does pack a lot more pages. It appears to be nicely presented. But man, $42.00 USD USD is in my category of All my buddies are playing it and simply LOVE the rules, so I got to have em! All my buddies aren't and some use other systems. So, I'll probably be waiting for someone to dump their copy. Just too pricey for me.

Thanks,

John

got the rules 2 days ago, pricey yes, black and white photos yes (thats a shame cause I like good eye candy).But the diagrams are really good and rules, well magic just magic. 1 small QRS no big charts or endless fire/combat modifiers, quick play battalion level rules (so you can have the 95th rifles if you have to). I've played shako 1 for years this is the same but better.

I'm not criticising the rules but "packaging" that makes them over pricey. And it's not the packaging per se, but the murky quality of the black and white that has failed to make the transition to colour.

I repeat, Shako is a darn good rules system and the new diagrams are excellent but decisions over the photos and plates have acted against the Shakjo 2 package being good value for money.

I see your point but at the end of the day if you had to pick 2 things in a set of rules to be unhappy with it would be
A) the combat and fire tables
B) movement and command rules
C) skirmish and morale rules
D) B&W photos and a bit pricey

I have better packaged rules system that were around the same price in box (marked for ebay)in my cupboard.

value for money Hell yes :-)

Having read my copy over the weekend I'd have to agree with Jeremy – a very good product that suffers from a failed attempt at upscale repackaging.

In terms of content, while many points have been clarified, the rules haven't changed much:
- Skirmishers lost a little of their flexibility, and may also be rather brittle now at 1 Kill only.
- Inbuilt delays for order changes have been replaced by ADC figures galopping about, which I rather like.
- For artillery there's the option of "Pulling Back" the range stick to fire ballshot even when the first in a series of attackers is in canister range.
- Sapper figures make an appearance to support attacks on field works and towns, again a nice touch
- Division morale rules have been tightened, a demoralised division sees all its units' MRs down one point (but can be rallied)

These are just first impressions from a read-through, I haven't played the game yet. A full list of rules changes will surely be published by somebody shortly, allowing us to upgrade our Shako I copies…

Crucially, the flexible basing system has survived. Unfortunately, so have the army lists and special rules (which in my opinion are biased to favour French and British).

Bottom line – not a purchase I regret by any means, but if you are happy playing Shako I, that version will definitely continue to serve if you'd rather spend your money on the forthcoming scenario books.

Musketier I agree with your "Bottom line" comment but there is a lot of new stuff in these rules too.
Artillery can evade now, hasty line,C-in-C can move, hasty square rules have tightened up. Small things but when you think about it they change the game a lot

"…the flexible basing system…"

Can someone please explain this?

Essentially The rules allow for notional infantry units to be based 3 x (3X1) or 3 x (2x2). If you like a lot of figures you can even do 2 ranks of 3 x (3X1), PROVIDING the other side is based similarly.

However base dimensions are still given in antediluvian inches and fractions of an inch. If the metric system was good enough for Napoleon………….

Roundboy, thank you for reminding me of those points I'd overlooked – or rather, seen but forgotten to mention. They will indeed change the game somewhat, and I'm not sure everone will like all of them.
As I said someone (not me!) will probably come up with a full comparative table within the week, and then we can all make up our mind on which we prefer…

On basing, the key sentence still reads:
"If you have figures based for another game there is no need to rebase – although the opposing armies in your game should be based similarly (or at least occupy similar frontages per each unit type)."

The inches and fractions thereof are only suggestions "if you have not yet based your figures", thank goodness!

We've been playing Shako for quite awhile now. We've also been play testing Shako II. All the changes mentioned by musketier really make the game more interesting.
In addition the divisional movement rules have been tighted up a tad.

I've been playing Napoleonics for over 30 years with various sets of rules. Shako has been the best set I've played so far. Small to mid size games you can complete in an evening, it has good flavour. Battalion figure sizes are not overly large so with a few figures you can have a good game. Some rules have you painting up 32 or 36 figures a battalion. With 25mm figs that can get expensive.
We've played larger games such as Borodino and had a conclusion is less than 8 hours. We've also played some 15mm games which were a lot of fun and oddly had a different feel than 25's.

My copy is coming and I really can't wait to get my hands on it. That it's black and white, really doesn't bother me.

I don't see flexible basing as a plus if you want to get a game out side your own click (club or whatever).I understand why they did it in both rule sets but its hard enough finding someone who plays the same nap rules as you, now they could have the same rules but still have a totally different basing system so you can't play them anyway.

Lastly I would add that all the rules are in 1 book now. No but wait in fields of glory its says or in the advanced rules off the net it adds. Its all there in 1 book.

"A full list of rules changes will surely be published by somebody shortly, allowing us to upgrade our Shako I copies…"

I would hope that people would have more respect for copyright laws!

Why is it so hard for members of our hobby to support the people who bring us great games like Shako 1 & Shako II.

Very short sighted in my opinion.

TRU

"A full list of rules changes will surely be published by somebody shortly, allowing us to upgrade our Shako I copies…"

"I would hope that people would have more respect for copyright laws!

Why is it so hard for members of our hobby to support the people who bring us great games like Shako 1 & Shako II.

Very short sighted in my opinion.

TRU"

I agree with your sentiments regarding buying originals however I have seen this new set of rules and in the UK it represents very poor value for money.

I was going to stock it in my shop but I won't now I have seen it.

Roland

TRUgamer, before you send the copyright police round may I point out that I am working from a duly purchased copy of Shako II, so I've done my bit to support Messrs. Conliffe and Company, even if, like several others in this thread,I feel slightly let down on value for money.

My turn of phrase about "updating" may have been unfortunate, but as my second post should clarify, I was thinking in terms of comparisons. That said, a lot of 'pencil updating' will no doubt be going on around wargames tables…

Specifically on the cost of Shako II .. recently just had a flick through the new Osprey Fields of Glory rules. For £25.00 GBP you get a hardback book with full colour photos and detailed drawings. I have been really looking forward to getting the Shako II rules but must admit was shocked to read on the first post that these are £27.50 GBP .. and it sounds like there is not much to show for your money. Unfortunately the competition means that standards are very high and for that kind of money think there is a natural expectation for quality production standards.

Looking at the amendments (I dont have Shako II yet), I would point out that one of the original game testers, Chris Leach had some "unofficial" amendments on a website previously eg extra hasty square rules etc. Interested to hear if there is anything really new in Shalo II that wasn't covered here. To date the skirmisher down to "one kill" amendment sounds most interesting.

Does anyone have any opinions about the scenario book which is also being sold?

Jezz,

Don't get my critique wrong. There is a lot to show for your money in terms of the "meat" of the rules. It's just that the disappointment that the inclusion of the murky pictures pushes the price up.

The final book and its price lets down the effort that Waxtel, Leach and their team have put into (lets keep the metaphor) beefing up the rules.

That's the sad bit.

Your out of your mind jeremy
the rules are fine…..i just played them, i was blown away
The pictures are dark, but i dont need pictures…who cares

no game gives you what shako does (The original rules are over 10 years old and the most played rule set)…and tell the fellow who plays fields of glory….he has to buy an army list book which brings up the price…oh and fields of glory will die and can be bought on ebay for $5 USD dollars next year, its now on ebay for $12…..lol

Jezz,

The scenario book includes scenarios for all the major engagements of the 1805 campaign. The scenarios range in size from 2 or 3-player games to several players per side. A couple of the main battles in 1805 have had their battlefield and order of battle divided so that you can play portions of the battle, each with their own victory conditions. If you have enough players and figures, you can also play the scenarios combined. Austerlitz and Caldiero have segmented scenarios and a grand scenario that involves additional reserve units.

Each scenario has a brief synopsis of the background behind the event, a tactical level map of the battlefield area (around 2-3 miles square), a complete order of battle of the units that were engaged in the fighting including the historical unit designations. The manpower strengths for each unit are averaged to increments of 25. Each scenario has victory conditions which represent key tactical objectives on the field. The maps are color coded with all French or French-allied formations in blue and allied formations in red.

The order of battle level of information is very detailed and would allow players playing any battalion level game to adapt it to different rules or play Shako which the scenarios were designed with. There appears to be one and only one errata from my initial glance. One of the maps has the formations but they are in black, not blue and red. This is some sort of printer error.

There is something for all players, small, medium and large battles. The layout of the information is easy to read. Playability of each scenario is subjective based on what each of us wants out of a game. I love the game so my opinion on this last point doesn't matter.

Does this information help?

Considering what figures cost, and considering how many hours of fun you get out of a good set of rules like Shako, I'm amazed that anyone worries abotu the price of the rules.

"The pictures are dark, but i dont need pictures…who cares"

Many people by looking at the replies on this thread. If something is going to be included in the manual – pictures for example – the quality should be high, particularly considering the shelf price. Field of Glory anyone? If you aren't going to do something right, don't do it at all.

"Considering what figures cost, and considering how many hours of fun you get out of a good set of rules like Shako, I'm amazed that anyone worries abotu the price of the rules."

The relative price of miniatures has NOTHING to do with the value of the rules for the price. A rip-off is a rip-off. I would tend to agree with that sentiment if the value rulebook was equal to the shelf price.

C.

I don't think that Shako is a rip-off. I just think that they are about 10 dollars higher than the marketplace readily supports. Frankly, I think the same may apply to the new version of Volley and bayonet. Publishers seem to believe that the marketplace will readily support 40 dollar sets. I don't. Especially when they aren't full color.

Time will tell.

Thanks,

John

A rip-off is a rip-off you're a nut case. Everyone worked really hard on that book, its NOT a two bit throw together piece of rubbish. No one conned anyone into buying it. If your going to base your rule buying choices on a books pictures your only rolling a five sided dice. These were some guys that decided shako could do with an up date not some big company like games workshop or Osprey. The over all set out of the book looks great to me. The rules look great.The diagrams are way clear than FoG (I have trouble telling which way some of the units are facing in FoG) The pictures are fine they are just not in color.
Black/white, color or no pictures at all there is always going to be some unhappy people but ripped-off how can you say that???

Many thanks for the detailed comments on the Scenario Book which sounds great. Re Shako II rules because I have not got these (yet) it's difficult to comment specifically. However I think everyone on the thread thinks Shako is a great set of rules and were looking forward to the release of Shako II.

I was expecting to just order Shako II straight away, as someone else put it, its instinctive, a must buy! In my personal case the £27.00 GBP price tag just causes me to pause … sure will end up buying the rules but will just have to wait a while. This creates an interesting question what price would it have to be for me to order with no questions asked??

Sure the rules are not going to be a rip off, but for £27.00 GBP dont see the problem with having high expectations. Still without actually seeing the copy its hard for me to comment further.

On the positive side good to see so many Shako supporters out there !

I understand your concern about costs. I am no different and always think twice before buying any product.

My understanding is that retailers normally buy at 60% less than the suggested retail price. So in the case of £27.00 GBP GBP for Shako II, the wholesale cost from the publisher is £10.20 GBP GBP. What becomes unclear, and it varies between books, is what is the actual cost for the production versus what is the wholesale cost. We all know it's less than £10.20 GBP GBP – which is the wholesale cost. Let's say for a minute that the actual production costs are £7.00 GBP GBP. This means that the publisher and author are splitting a £3.00 GBP GBP profit margin – I'm rounding for simplicity. Unlike Harry Potter which sells millions of copies, the profit margin in gaming circles is ridiculously small unless you are a very efficient "in demand" niche such as the Perry Brothers, Foundry etc.

What this industry is faced with, and no retailer or publisher should be blamed, is the financial investment and risk is all up front for the publisher to have everything printed, and then the publisher has to sell anywhere from 1,000 to a couple thousand copies to break even. The up front costs often include legal permissions for pictures, art work, reference to names belonging to other products etc. These intangible costs to produce a book are all buried in the cost, but we as gamers don't see or understand these costs. Am I saying blame it on the lawyers, perhaps no although I could take a shot at a couple lawyer friends who also game. :) Anyway, this is all over and above the printing costs, which aren't bad and are probably half the actual production costs.

What I guess is that a number of rules writers will spend 1,000-2,000 hours each, depending on the size and detail in a book, and then wait for the publisher to break even on an investment of thousands of dollars. After that the publisher and authors will split the £3.00 GBP GBP multiple ways. Since most rules don't sell more than a few thousand copies, excepting War Hammer, DBA and a couple others, the publisher and author are making a couple thousand dollars for potentially a couple thousand hours of labour. I sympathize for the authors since every time I go to a gaming convention I see a number of individuals with photocopies of the rules. I also sympathize for the publishers since they are taking all the financial risks. What is apparent to me is that publishers aren't putting shoddy products out anymore because they'd lose their shirts.

We, as gamers, are fickle and demand good quality for our currency. That's fair in any industry. What we forget though is that the standard quality of production has gone up enormously since the early days of gaming, but the risks are greater in publishing and the profits are minimal for anyone insane enough to bother anymore. I bought Shako II and I love it. I can't be bothered to worry about whether the pictures are colour or not, any more than I will compare apples to oranges. The Shako product stands on its own merits and doesn't need to be compared to FOG or War Hammer etc. I'd bet if there were more historical gamers than fantasy/sci-fi gamers, which I doubt sincerely based on attendance records at the respective gaming conventions, that the historical products would continue to go up in quality while the price came down for selling more "widgets". The reality though is that each historical product has a limited audience because there are so many products to choose from, and less so a market of buyers.

I wish you the best with whatever decision you make regarding your investments. I for one and going to set up a couple Shako II games as soon as I can so I can start enjoying my investment.

Cheers

Actually, having put my toe in the water to find out how much publishing a set of rules costs I can make a few comments. Some publishers chose to go glossy and full color. This IS a pricey choice. Other companies decide on color covers w/black and white interiors and either saddle stitched, stapled, coil bound or glued. Examples include Two Hour Wargames, Majestic 12 and a slew of other game companies.

Many of these companies tend to sell their rules direct. The consideration to include a distributor or sell to retailers MAY be part of the overall price tag being at a higher price point so their is a profit margin for everyone.

Thanks,

John

I sell at 29,00 Euros and 24.50 Euros for the secnario book and I have stock.
link

It's value for money and is very complete with all the explanations and examples so there is no arguments.
I'm using the 4 bases as in example D with 40mm x 15mm (4 figs per base) for infantry and 40mm x 30mm for cavalry with 3 figs per base.

Well Age of Eagles retailed at $ 30.00 US for 106 total pages, counting the charts card and both full color glossy covers (interior B&W). That works out to 28 cents per page.

What is the per page cost of Shako II?

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

Campaigner,

I went to your site – excellent site.

Mr. Gray,

I humored your point and did the math. Your calculation is $30 USD / 106 pages = 28.3 cents per page. Mr. Conliffe's rules at $42 USD / 139 = 30.2 cents per page. Arguably you win if I was valuing a product based on the pound weight. I concede this point but I'll be frank. I would never measure true value on the weight and thickness of a volume. The rules, combined, with intellectual capital, combined with the fun factor would determine my value for my investment. I respectfully will admit I have not played Age of Eagles, having been playing Shako and now Shako II for 12+ years. Therefore I will never be in a position to support your point or make any disparaging remarks. It adds no value to the forum or either of us.

I noticed that Age of Eagles sells for 30 Euros and Shako II sells for 29 Euros on Campaigner's site. Shako II, with 33 more pages, sells for 1 less Euro. In the U.S. Age of Eagles sells for less than Shako. Okay – there appears to be a discrepancy here.

Anyway, I don't know that comparing price per page is relevant since Mr. Gray and Mr. Conliffe have different costs for legal permissions, copyright legalities etc. Certainly if I was buying from Europe, I'd buy Shako II because the cost is less for more. This is an irrelevant comparison though as the two products can't be compared in fairness to either author.

What Mr. Gray's point though is, is that his cost per page is so close to Mr. Conliffe's cost per page, that there are obviously similar behind the scenes costs in the United States in terms of printing, legal permissions, copy rights for art work, illustrations etc.

Mr. Gray – thank you, you have reaffirmed my belief that the publishing industry costs are consistent in the U.S. and that Quantum Publishing has been providing fair equitable value that recoups their overhead on investment. Although I haven't played Age of Eagles, a few of my compatriots have tried it. They tell me the system is okay and works, and they are die-hard Fire and Fury fans. We continue to play Shako as we feel it is more representative of the Napoleonic era.

I wish Mr. Gray well and best regards to all.

Actually I wasn't trying to win anything, I was just curious given Quantum published both rules sets. Another example could be Grande Armee, since that was also published by Quantum. I think you really misinterpreted my intent in that regard, so I would suggest the tone of your comments are a bit misplaced.

I've really no clue what behind the scene costs went into S II, so I don't know if the two books are comparable or not. Spiral bound or perfect bound, all of this makes a difference. I know that artwork copyright for AOE was nil due to the The Bridgeman Art Library, Ltd. v. Corel Corporation precident. Also, I've not yet seen a copy of Shako II in the flesh, so I can't comment on issues such as dark artwork as well.

I think all Napoleonic players would do well to invest in both a brigade and battalion set of rules. While I like large battles, the reason I wrote AOE, there are also smaller battles like Schestedt (and I just like the Danes) that do very well for battalion level. Shako I would be my choice here as Empire and FVTW are just too complex and fatiguing IMHO. Thus, I was kinda looking forward to grabbing a copy of Shako II at Historicon.

However, the issue, as you point out, is not that Shako II is 14% more expensive per page. The real issue may well be that in these hard economic times, anything over $ 30.00 US is going to be a tough sell unless it has some really unique selling points, such as full color glossy, etc.

Warmest regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

Bill,

Well stated. I apologize to one/all for any considerations that my tone was intended in a hostile manner. It wasn't. I do concede that I did misunderstand your points.

I read the various missives and concluded that there are a couple issues being discussed under one thread.

1. quality of the photos in Shako II
2. cost value for Shako II, given the price is higher than expected
3. Shako II value as compared to other Napoleonic publications
4. Shako II value as compared to non-Napoleonic publications
5. What do gamers want in a publication and what are they willing to pay for it

You raise a very good point that since Age of Eagles, which I haven't seen, is a brigade game, and Shako (various flavors) is a battalion level game – there is no comparative baseline that would stand scrutinization and that players should consider owning both – or some other publication dealing with brigade/battalion level rules. I agree. I am narrow minded and love the battalion level systems such as Johnny Reb and Shako. A number of my friends are almost fanatical about Fire and Fury and prefer the higher level of organization. I do not, but will unequivocably state that Fire and Fury is a superb set of rules.

I've played a number of Napoleonic systems and advocate Shako over all others. I haven't played all Napoleonic systems so although my opinion is quite biased (compared to Empire, CLS, Bruce Quarrie etc.) I wouldn't say Age of Eagles isn't a superb system too. One of my compatriots bought it, but I have yet to see it played. I will have to try it out of respect for you.

I stand by my previous posts and continue to believe that there is no solid baseline for comparing Napoleonic rules, with its niche, to ancients, fantasy or science fiction publications. Historical gamers vary in interest so I'll only share my own position on this point. I have hundreds of Napoleonic books which show uniform plates. I could care less whether a set of Napoleonic rules includes photos of uniforms, other people's figures etc. I have lots of source material, perhaps not the best or most accurate sources, but I don't care. I've got enough to keep me happy. Inclusion of pictures in a publication such as Age of Eagles, Shako, ITGM etc. is only valuable to me as a means of spacing out text. The glossy cover of a publication is nice eye candy but the inside rules content is paramount.

I plan on being at Historicon this year and will seek you out to say hello and shake your hand. If you're running an AoE game, I'd love to watch or participate.

Cheers.

I have both AOE and Shako II and I hesitate to kvetch because we have to put our hobby in perspective. It is small and rules are sold in limited numbers, so we can't expect bargains here.

It is unfair to compare Nappy rules to FOW or Warhammer because there is a larger base of players to sell to. Besides, rule prices are insignificant compared to the cost and time invested in the miniatures. Let's enjoy our hobby. If you like the rules buy them. The cost doesn't compare to the fun of playing.

Bill, you nailed the point some folks here have tried to make in a much more succinct way.

Thanks,

John

Machine & dantheman
nice comments I agree with them all. Going back to the title of this post "Is Shako II value for money?".
I think this would have been better answered in a poll. Reading all these posts the only thing some people are unhappy with is the black/white pictures.How much would you pay for a set of rules that has the following.
1) color cover
2) 134 pages black and white
3) 25+ 3D diagrams
4) QFS (only 1 page needed both sides)
5) army lists for 15 nations
6) 90+ photos/art work (quick count)
7) Well support with yahoo group
8) years of play testing
9) well written and set out.
10) 6D system

whats your top dollar?
10.00
20.00
30.00
40.00

Well, I certainly started some excitement by shooting from the hip when I began this thread.

As far as I'm concerned it's not really value for money (although I've bought it) compared with Shako 1 and I'm so satisfied with Shako 1, I'd have bought Shako 2 in a similar format.

Let's consider Roundboys list with my comment in brackets for each one because some are essentially irellevant, repeatng what you get for Shako 1

1) color cover. [No advance on Shako 1]
2) 134 pages black and white. [20% of which are unnecessary black and white prints and photos]
3) 25+ 3D diagrams [useful improvement]
4) QFS (only 1 page needed both sides) [As Shako 1]
5) army lists for 15 nations [unecessary duplication of morale and army lists. could have been incorporated in the same tables]
6) 90+ photos/art work (quick count)[of murky black and white quality]
7) Well support with yahoo group [same as Shako 1, so what's different?]
8) years of play testing [appreciated]
9) well written and set out. [well they would be if it wasn't for the murky black and white pictures]
10) 6D system [no change on Shako 1]

On the justifed reputation of Shako 1, it could have been produced as a slimmer volume at about 2/3 the cost. (Dollars, pounds or euros)

N.B.
On the comparison of AOE and Shako, they are different beasts.

AOE works on representative units. In other words units have a number of stands proportionate to the size of the unit in a given/imagined scenario.

Shako works on notional units. i.e. they are always 3 bases.

It all depends what you want. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Publishers do not give retailers 60% discount. It's normally between 30 and 40%. Plus retailers have to foot postage which knocks down the profit and then pay tax on the sales..:-((
I have AoE for 30.00 euros as opposed to the 29.00 euro I charge for Shako II as I bought AoE a long time ago when the Dollar was a lot stronger against the euro and so more expensive for me.
I think Shako II is worth the money and I find that there is a lot more explanation and that is it is beuatufully laid out and they spell better than me ;-)). I play both Shako and AoE and they are completely different and Jeremy has concisely and brilliantly defined this though I could add that AoE removes individual bases. I have extra half bases expressely for this purpose as I use what AoE would term a double base as I use 40 x 15 or 40 x 20mm for Shako and In the Name of Glory which I also play.
I also have Fields of Glory in stock plus army lists for it and have still to get a first sale! So much for colour pics inside. I sell for 32.00 euros when it had a RRRP of 35.00 and I got less discount than AoE or Shako gave me.
I shall not bother to buy any of the newer army lists for FoG as I feel rather ripped off by it's lack of success.

Jeremy
You seem to be stuck on comparing Shako I and II. I Didn't ask that in my post. I said how much would you pay for a set of rules that contained those 10 points. Hopefully people who have never played Shako 1 will look at buying these rules as well. Not just people who wanted to up date their shako 1 rules.
What were you hoping for when you picked up these rules? Something the same as shako 1 for same price even though its was printed over 10 years ago? Maybe no pictures and only 1 staple holding the pages together (cut the price down a bit)
Or something completely different and just called shako 2 for the hell of it?

"You pays your money and you takes your choice"
May be next time you should make your choice before you pays your money
It might work out better for you :-)

Roundboy

The essence of the whole thing is the comparison. I'd buy (have bought)Shako 2 on the strength of Shako 1 because I know Shako 1 well.

The issue is whether someone would be attracted to Shako 2 for starters at that price and with the murky pictures etc.

The success of a lot of hard work by the Waxtel/Leach team has been jeopardised by the cost and disappointing production results.

£27.50 GBP sounds pricey if the pictures are badly done.

It's not that I prefer colour to mono. Whatever is chosen needs to be reproduced correctly.

Compare the current edition of Fire & Fury, an excellent set of rules, rather let down by low quality repro of the colour pics from the original. At £14.50 GBP perhaps less of a disappointment.

I have Shako 1 though have not played them. I have not seen the Shako 2. I have to say I will not order them sight unseen at that price, if there are doubts about the repro quality.

The problem is, Kilkrazy, that even a critic of Shako 2 like myself, will tell you that the Shako system is about as good as you are going to get. The new set needs the endorsement of experienced gamers toget people to be willing to buy them "sight unseen".